Black Spirituality Religion : If Akhen-Aten Was Moses....

[SAMURAI36]

I agree with both your perspectivees.

thus, other than the kush-axum empire colonies in yemen...is there any substance to the claim that muhammad was african?

If one considers Muhammad to be a descendant of those colonies, then yes.

The problem I have here is with what people now are trying to determine what is to be taken literal and what is not.

You label that which you disagree with and "not literal" but then take as literal that which supports your "kemetic" (i.e. "Hamitic") bias.

Perhaps what should be established (the world over, as well as here), is what criteria that should be used to distinguish the literal from the metaphor.

In the development of Al-Islam, his daughter Fatimah certainly was "Egyptian" (i.e. "Kemetic") and her followers formed a Caliphate that was centered in "Kemet" while Muhammad's "caller to the Faith", Bilal, was no doubt AFRICAN.

I think what is being played out here, is a classic case of "one thing has little or nothing to do with the other."

If Muhammad's daughter was "Kemetic" (how so, when she was born on Arabian soil, and did not speak Kemau, but Kufic Arabic?), then how is Muhammad himself (born in the very same place) not to be deemed as such?

Further, Fatimah and her husbands followers ventured into Kemet sometime later after her father's passing.

Venturing into and claiming a land, especially whilst there are already others dwelling there, does not make you a native, it makes you an invader--even if you are Black like the natives there are.

I guess folks also will say that there was no Makeda (i.e. the Queen of Sheba) even though Sabeanism developed and was centered in Saba, which was an extension of the Axumite empire.

Not at all. Quite the opposite, actually. I've found that both popular Judeo-Christian and Islamic thought have a nasty habit of twisting the Sheba story around, especially in the interest of making Solomon look far superior to Sheba.

Here, we have history, and on the other hand, we have just the story. In honor of what was asked above, which do we take as literal, and which otherwise?

This is one weakness in the Nile Valley hypothesis. It tends to lump together as one or deny the facts concerning that not ALL Africans in Upper and or Lower "Egypt" were "kemetic".

If the differentiation applies to geographical boundaries, then I'd at least partially agree.

Howver, if we are talking in an etymological fashion, then I'd have to disagree, since "Kemet" means "land of the Blacks". Are not all the people you mention here below (see next quote) Black African people?

If so, then any land that they natively and indigenously inhabited, should by all logic be called "Kemet", even if the national distinction could very well be made.

Sabeans, Ethiopians, Axumites, Cush-ites, Nubians, and the folks from Punt (Puanit) were and continue to be quite seperate people culturally, linguistically and spiritually.

Different from whom? Certainly not each other, for these are the same people, speaking nearly the same language (dialects not withstanding), practicing the same culture, and inhabiting the same region(s)....The only difference is that they called themselves different things at different times.

Or did they? :?:

As I have stated before, he was at the least "Afro-Asiatic" as were/are ALL so-called "Arabs" (which originally was applied to folks that occupied the Arabian Peninsula, which was an extention of the Ethiopian empire of Piankhi and Shabaka, much later after the decline of "kemet"). Furthermore, before even mentioning the Hyksos or other "invaders" it might serve best to take a closer look into Sesostris, during the 12th dynasty, the process of empire building which stressed into Colchis and the Arabian Gulf...

OK, so with perhaps the exception of the Hyksos issue, we are in agreement here.

if the bible (judiasm and christianity both) are plagiarized from misinterpretations of older kemetian doctrines...how could muhammad be credible?

how can "god" or "gabriel" re-reveal what was never true???

adam and eve? never true. cain & able? never true? noah? the entire meaning if that story is destroyed...thus untrue.

the bible is historically inaccurate thus a doctrine that claims it is a confirmation of the bible cannot be accurate...

none of the abrahamic faiths have any crediblity...

feel free to continue ignoring me...

even if black moors ruled the world, this does not make muhammad a prophet of god...a mystery god no less...

I agree with this as well. Again, one thing has nothing to do with another.

I have often wondered why Muhammad would choose the Abrahamic route instead of the Kemetic one, when seeking to establish his religious decree......It has been surmised that he did so, because the Judeo-Christian theology had become so prevelant in the region at the time, and thus needed a foothold in order to compete with them.

To choose the Kemetic route (which is actually where "ALLAH" comes from; a deity that derived from a pantheon of cosmological theology), would have taken whatever credibility he sought to gain away from his cause.

PEACE

 

[nibs]

thus, other than the kush-axum empire colonies in yemen...is there any substance to the claim that muhammad was african?

(SAMURAI36) - If one considers Muhammad to be a descendant of those colonies, then yes.

so is this an assumption or a fact? it looks like it's an assumption. if people don't know, it makes more sense to acknowledge that muhammad's race isn't known rather than to say he was black.

(SAMURAI36) - I have often wondered why Muhammad would choose the Abrahamic route instead of the Kemetic one, when seeking to establish his religious decree...

what evidence is there that muhammad knew the kemetic route?

a) we don't disagree that muhammad's claims cannot be literally true.

b) one has to regard everything in the qu'ran symbolically to attempt to make sense of it.

c) the simplest solution is that muhammad believed the exoteric teachings of a garden of evil and a trick by satan as literally true. this is why every description of "heaven" in the qu'ran is basically the garden of eden, having everything that was lost because of iblys' pride and deception restored.

the orthodox doctrine that has grown from those teachings is a doctrine of superstition, and much of that doctrine seems to have been self-serving for his own personal whims at the time...

 

[SAMURAI36]

thus, other than the kush-axum empire colonies in yemen...is there any substance to the claim that muhammad was african?

(SAMURAI36) - If one considers Muhammad to be a descendant of those colonies, then yes.

so is this an assumption or a fact? it looks like it's an assumption. if people don't know, it makes more sense to acknowledge that muhammad's race isn't known rather than to say he was black.

I agree that I presented this as an assumption, but in reality it's much more than that.

Let us examine the facts:

*Muhammad was born in Mecca.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#Childhood

Muhammad was born into a well-to-do family settled in the northern Arabian town of Mecca.

*Mecca is geographically the closet Arabian city to Africa.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/Mecca_location.jpg

*Both prior to and after Muhammad's life/death, Mecca was controlled by Hashemite Arabs, who had originally come from what is now modern-day Somalia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashemite

Most clan families in Somaliland have strong ancestry relations with Hashimite Jordanians because it is believed that Hashimite and Yemeni Arabs setteled in Somaliland centuries ago, relativily making them African Arabs.

*Muhammad's tribe of QURAYSH was a sub-tribe of the Hashemites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quraysh#Muhammad.27s_Tribe

Within the tribes they were sub-divided into various families, with each family being identified by the name of the patriarch; for example: Muhammad belonged to the Kuresh tribe and within that tribe he was of the Beni Hashim; within the tribe of Kuresh there were numerous other family clans that made up the Kuresh. ‘Beni’ means ‘children of’, hence the name Beni Hashim means ‘the family, or children of Hashim’. Beni shares the same word root as the word ‘ibn’ or ‘bin’: bin Laden means son of Laden.

Thus, one logically draws the conclusion that Muhammad was of African ancestry.

(SAMURAI36) - I have often wondered why Muhammad would choose the Abrahamic route instead of the Kemetic one, when seeking to establish his religious decree...

what evidence is there that muhammad knew the kemetic route?

Because he was aware that the various Arabian tribes of his time, practicing what the white man (and those who adhere staunchly to Judeo-Christian thought) as "idol worship".

Many of the Gods and Godesses of the Arabian pantheons correspond directly to their Nubian/Kemetic counterparts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_mythology

For example, amongst this list is the Arabian Goddess ASTARTE, which corresponds directly to AUSET (ISIS) of Kemetic lore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte#.E2.80.98Ashtart_in_Egypt

Ashtart was also identified with the goddess Sekhmet but seemingly more often conflated, at least in part, with Isis to judge from the many images found of ‘Ashtart suckling a small child.

a) we don't disagree that muhammad's claims cannot be literally true.

Agreed. Much of Muhammad's theology seems to be a mish-mash of Judeo-Christianity, mixed with the prevelant ATR of Arabia.

For example, many times Muhammad mentions ALLAH in cosmological context; in many Surahs, we see ALLAH speaking in the first-person plural ("We, Us", etc).

Also, Muhammad blatantly mentions other Deities such as "the Daughters of ALLAH" who were ALLAT, MIZNAT and UZZAH (Qur'an 53:19).

b) one has to regard everything in the qu'ran symbolically to attempt to make sense of it.

Agreed.

c) the simplest solution is that muhammad believed the exoteric teachings of a garden of evil and a trick by satan as literally true. this is why every description of "heaven" in the qu'ran is basically the garden of eden, having everything that was lost because of iblys' pride and deception restored.

I mostly agree. However, this does not discount any esoteric value that Muhammad may have intended in his mission.

For example, how is Sufi Islam and its customs to be reconciled?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi#History_of_Sufism

Sufism originates in the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. Almost all traditional Sufi schools (orders) trace their "chains of transmission" back to the Prophet, either via his cousin and son-in-law Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib or caliph Abu Bakr. From their point of view, the esoteric teaching was given to those who had the capacity to contain the direct experiential gnosis of God, and then passed on from teacher to student through the centuries.

Some orientalist scholars believe that Sufism was essentially the result of Islam evolving in a more mystic direction. For example, Annemarie Schimmel proposes that Sufism in its early stages of development meant nothing but the interiorization of Islam

This is my view on this as well. What are your thoughts?

the orthodox doctrine that has grown from those teachings is a doctrine of superstition, and much of that doctrine seems to have been self-serving for his own personal whims at the time...

I could not agree with you more. And, I'm sure like you, I could site instances from Hadith all day that substantiate our perspective on this.

However, just as with virtually all religious systems, there had been a major divergence, with esoteric and exoteric variations. Though I cannot be certain, I nonetheless do not think that Muhammad himself was responsible for the exoteric aspect, nor would he have condoned it.

PEACE

 

[nibs]

(SAMURAI36) - I mostly agree. However, this does not discount any esoteric value that Muhammad may have intended in his mission.

For example, how is Sufi Islam and its customs to be reconciled?

the exoteric aspects of muhammad's teachings, the literal interpretations of the qu'ran; undermine the sufist doctrine in many ways. the depictions of muhammad's life do not indicate that he lived as a sufi; or exercised any sort of self-discipline. the doctrine literally states that people's only knowledge of god is through scriptures and prophets and not within. there are verses in the qu'ran that argue directly against anyone relying on self-intuition and not on scriptures.
it seems more likely that the sufi's superficially adopted islam and used it as a cover for their own practices. the esoteric sufi teachings do not expand on the exoteric qu'ranic teachings; they directly contradict them. it's a stretch to imagine that the sufi doctrine is rooted in muhammad's teachings when his life more closely mirrors the exoteric literal doctrine and not the esoteric teachings.

when verses in the qu'ran are revealed to justify his relationships with his wives and also concubuses...the doctrine seems to be too self-serving and only to affirm the literal teachings...

the doctrine of the qu'ran is so literal in terms of heaven matching the garden of eden...it's a stretch to think he didn't literally believe that to be true.

 

[Omowale Jabali]

I agree that I presented this as an assumption, but in reality it's much more than that.

Let us examine the facts:

*Muhammad was born in Mecca.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#Childhood

Muhammad was born into a well-to-do family settled in the northern Arabian town of Mecca.

*Mecca is geographically the closet Arabian city to Africa.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/Mecca_location.jpg

*Both prior to and after Muhammad's life/death, Mecca was controlled by Hashemite Arabs, who had originally come from what is now modern-day Somalia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashemite

Most clan families in Somaliland have strong ancestry relations with Hashimite Jordanians because it is believed that Hashimite and Yemeni Arabs setteled in Somaliland centuries ago, relativily making them African Arabs.

*Muhammad's tribe of QURAYSH was a sub-tribe of the Hashemites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quraysh#Muhammad.27s_Tribe

Within the tribes they were sub-divided into various families, with each family being identified by the name of the patriarch; for example: Muhammad belonged to the Kuresh tribe and within that tribe he was of the Beni Hashim; within the tribe of Kuresh there were numerous other family clans that made up the Kuresh. ‘Beni’ means ‘children of’, hence the name Beni Hashim means ‘the family, or children of Hashim’. Beni shares the same word root as the word ‘ibn’ or ‘bin’: bin Laden means son of Laden.

Thus, one logically draws the conclusion that Muhammad was of African ancestry.



Because he was aware that the various Arabian tribes of his time, practicing what the white man (and those who adhere staunchly to Judeo-Christian thought) as "idol worship".

Many of the Gods and Godesses of the Arabian pantheons correspond directly to their Nubian/Kemetic counterparts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_mythology

For example, amongst this list is the Arabian Goddess ASTARTE, which corresponds directly to AUSET (ISIS) of Kemetic lore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte#.E2.80.98Ashtart_in_Egypt

Ashtart was also identified with the goddess Sekhmet but seemingly more often conflated, at least in part, with Isis to judge from the many images found of ‘Ashtart suckling a small child.



Agreed. Much of Muhammad's theology seems to be a mish-mash of Judeo-Christianity, mixed with the prevelant ATR of Arabia.

For example, many times Muhammad mentions ALLAH in cosmological context; in many Surahs, we see ALLAH speaking in the first-person plural ("We, Us", etc).

Also, Muhammad blatantly mentions other Deities such as "the Daughters of ALLAH" who were ALLAT, MIZNAT and UZZAH (Qur'an 53:19).



Agreed.



I mostly agree. However, this does not discount any esoteric value that Muhammad may have intended in his mission.

For example, how is Sufi Islam and its customs to be reconciled?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi#History_of_Sufism

Sufism originates in the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. Almost all traditional Sufi schools (orders) trace their "chains of transmission" back to the Prophet, either via his cousin and son-in-law Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib or caliph Abu Bakr. From their point of view, the esoteric teaching was given to those who had the capacity to contain the direct experiential gnosis of God, and then passed on from teacher to student through the centuries.

Some orientalist scholars believe that Sufism was essentially the result of Islam evolving in a more mystic direction. For example, Annemarie Schimmel proposes that Sufism in its early stages of development meant nothing but the interiorization of Islam

This is my view on this as well. What are your thoughts?



I could not agree with you more. And, I'm sure like you, I could site instances from Hadith all day that substantiate our perspective on this.

However, just as with virtually all religious systems, there had been a major divergence, with esoteric and exoteric variations. Though I cannot be certain, I nonetheless do not think that Muhammad himself was responsible for the exoteric aspect, nor would he have condoned it.

PEACE

Quote:

"Thus, one logically draws the conclusion that Muhammad was of African ancestry."

This is my principal point and considering the "kemetic" INVASIONS into "arabia" to consider Muhammad and his followers to be "invaders" is a historical and biological inaccuracy.

Furthermore, when you equate "Nubian/Khemetic" as the SAME then reference Hashemite as different, yet lump "Ethiopians", "Cu****es", Axumites" as the SAME, there is a contradiction.

Historically, they are DISTINCT "families" with distinct linguistic and other cultural traits and characteristics and are depicted differently in numerous tomb paintings and other artifacts.

In fact, the more geneaological research that is done even reveals different DNA stands among many of these groups as there are varying blood types.

In "Kemetic" literature they were distinguised as the "Four Races of Men"

Im not down with this neo-Kemetic BS which romanticizes this His_Story as if it is one and the same...

Im done with this..for sure...