Black People : The Dutch are slowly recognizing that their blackface tradition of Zwarte Piet is racist and weird

Discussion in 'Black People Open Forum' started by Clyde C Coger Jr, Oct 2, 2016.

  1. Clyde C Coger Jr

    Clyde C Coger Jr going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    In the Spirit of Revision,


    The Dutch are slowly recognizing that their blackface tradition of Zwarte Piet is racist and weird


    Over multiple years now, WorldViews has run stories about the problematic Dutch tradition of Zwarte Piet. Around Christmastime, myriad Dutch adults and children have customarily donned frilly wigs, patted themselves in blackface, painted their lips red and japed around in costumes as "Black Pete," the dark-skinned helpers of Sinterklaas, or Saint Nicholas ...

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...tradition-of-zwarte-piet-is-racist-and-weird/

    [​IMG]
    In 2013, a "Zwarte Piet," or "Black Pete," jokes with children after arriving with Sinterklaas, or Saint Nicholas, by steamboat in Hoorn, Netherlands. Protests and demonstrations from minority groups have rocked such celebrations in recent years in Dutch cities. (Peter Dejong/AP)


    ...

     
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  2. Fine1952

    Fine1952 Happy Winter Solstice MEMBER

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    Eye enjoyed reading this piece. Eye always thought the Dutch were ignorant

     
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  3. Clyde C Coger Jr

    Clyde C Coger Jr going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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  4. Clyde C Coger Jr

    Clyde C Coger Jr going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Right, Right ... and don't leave out the Portuguese, Williams laid full blame for our demise on them as well:


    [​IMG]

    ...


     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
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  5. Clyde C Coger Jr

    Clyde C Coger Jr going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Thank you that's good to know.


    ...
     
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  6. Lynott

    Lynott Member MEMBER

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    What have the Dutch to do with the Boers? They are mainly from Dutch descent, but have become more seperated ever since the late 17th century and international relations haven't always been very warm. What does this imply? That the Dutch are genetically forced to be racist or something?
     
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  7. Lynott

    Lynott Member MEMBER

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    ?
     
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  8. Lynott

    Lynott Member MEMBER

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    Proof doesn't come from prejudice and ill-informedness. If it's not genetics, it's a matter of choice, humans can choose what they do with wath they have inhereted. I'm not denying that the Dutch have been among the worst violaters of human rights in history, but people and a people can change, that's a choice to make.

    The Dutch did, the Boers as a seperate 'nation' from Dutch, German and French descent with their Dutch based language didn't (for the large part, of course there were and are individual Boers who stood up against apartheid and stand up against racism). So the Dutch and the Boers became enemies in the last 3-4 decades of apartheid. I think it's hard to find a western country that supported Mandela and the ANC more than the Netherlands.

    I don't know about that, I've never been there and I don't like to judge regions I don't know much about. My next door neighbour is from Curacao but the subject didn't come in our conversations yet.

    I was never asked, it's probably because the forum registered the location of my computer and put the corresponding flag in my profile.

    You are 'proudly' displaying the flag of country that has more blacks in forced labour than during slavery, where blacks have to fear for their life if stopped by a cop and equal opportunity is still a dream. The Dutch flag doesn't stand for a racism-free paradise, but it does stand for a country where blacks could just go walk up to a cop and have a chat, where any black kid could get a university degree, where every black adult is invited to vote, doesn't have to register and voting doesn't take more than half an hour, and where there are lot of whites opposed to Zwarte Piet as it is now and a lot of blacks support keeping Zwarte Piet as it is. It's fair to blame the Dutch for a revival in racism there since about 10-15 years, and for beeing complacent, smug even, about how anti-racist they are, but they're still lightyears ahead of the USA. I didn't ask for the flag to be displayed, but I'm not ashamed of the flag either.

    There is racism in the Netherlands, but you can't just project American racism on a different country, Blackface is an American phenomenon, a shameful part of American history. Dutch people painting their face black for a silly, weird tradition might be racist, but certainly not in the same way.
     
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  9. Lynott

    Lynott Member MEMBER

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    Peope who use the word 'kaffer' are not my kind of people. If that happened to you it would at least explain your hostility towards me, not necessarily justifie it. But for someone with first hand experience I believe it's rather strange that you use the word 'kaffir' which is Arabic and means infidel or atheist, instead of the Dutch (Boers origin) of 'kaffer'. But as I said, I don't really know the Antilles first hand so maybe the racists there went back to the Arabic origins of the word.

    As you've been in the Dutch Antilles a lot, you must have noticed that Sinterklaas en Zwarte Piet is celebrated there too, and black people also paint their face black there. What did you or your relatives think about that? Here's a video:

    They even painted Sinterklaas' face white. Of course it's important that the little kids don't recognize Sinterklaas or Zwarte Piet as a family member or neighbour, but in the Netherlands just the beard will do to make the kids believe it's someone who travelled far togehter with the Piets to give them presents.

    One of the perks of American cultural imperialism/expansionism is that we not only get to know their best works of art and music, but also learn a lot about the country and it's politics, sometimes even more than the Americans themselves, because we have still some independent media left. For example, I could have told you about this more than 5 years ago:
    And I would have told you about this if I had the chance, your hostility towards me wouldn't be a consideration. Slavery in the production of chocolate? That's 10 year old news for me. Who's keeping it secrect from you seems to be an important question. One of the drawbacks of this cultural imperialism is that American racism gets exported to countries that already have their own racism issues and really could do without, and it comes with arrogance of judging different cultures without having any knowledge and understanding.

    I'm not really a royalty watcher so I didn't notice your name was almost the same as some princess' name. I like yours better though, with the double n.
    Everybody over 18 gets invited to vote. When there are elections you get a letter from the mayor, with a card with your name on it that you have to show in the polling station. The letter tells you the date, the opening hours of the polling station (8 A.M till 9 P.M.), which polling station you are expected and where it is (usually within a 10 minute walk), how you can vote at a different polling station of your choice and what is and what isn't allowed at polling station, as some citizens might want to check if proceedings at a polling station are lawful and the counting of the votes is done right, you're entitled to as a citizen. And a letter like that usually ends with explaining why it's important to vote and basically begs us all to please come and vote.

    I'm in a better position to judge America than you are to judge the Netherlands, that's quite obvious. That's just the way things are, a big culturally dominant country vs a small country that's importing American culture voluntarely, so there's no reason to blame Americans. But it seems to me that if you would try to keep an open mind, and this topic isn't a very good example of that, you could know a lot more of what's important to you than you do.

    This is my favourite Sly song:

    I miss that militant but optimistic spirit of the 60's and 70's a lot in today's debate. This one reflects my perspective quite well.

    This song just tells it like it is:

    But these are the lyrics I'd like you to take something from:

    No, I'm not anti-American, I'm just anti-oppression, globally.
     
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  10. Clyde C Coger Jr

    Clyde C Coger Jr going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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