Black People : Problems Between Pastor Ray Hagins and Ashra Kwesi

Bro. H0rnet:

1. Not many, because they didn't want to end up like the leaders.
2. Each leader had their "followers" from the start.

1. If that is true, it is also true that to this day, we still maintain a fear of death - another thing to confront, albeit understanding that we do not know enough about Death to fear it. We do not want to end up taken down like our leaders, but want to rise high like our leaders? Again - we indeed have work to do.

2. They had their followers from the start? That's not what i've experienced. For example, it is to my understanding that many people went against King long before they decided to join hands with him. You even have those of us who went against Obama, then started to join the band-wagon as he got closer to election day. It's like how true are/were we to the causes we represent? Ya know...

Generally speaking, the masses of us don't.
...Generally speaking, i'd say this is most in part due to the fact that many of us lack a Knowledge of Self and/or lack a concept of it. When we know ourselves, we will know what our true Ancestral Assignments are, at least for starters. Not to say that Bros. Kwesi and Hagins both know their true selves, but they at least (and have shown, by the way) they have a concept of it.
Well, I guess that would be a question for those who believe that further integration and assimilation is the answer for us.
Fair enough.

LOL... yeah, I know they have been choosing our leaders. But you know, I wasn't trying to say nuttin, cause people get upset an even indignant when you say it. This is one of the things that we as Black people have not learned to DEAL with yet.
Well see - I too could have omitted saying it, but how else will we get ahead as a people except that we confront what really needs to be confronted? See above...
I think that this is what our "scholars" are really here for. To raise the consciousness levels until eventually we realize how powerful we are. It is on us to then use that power to free our selves.

Now, how long will that process take? I don't know... but, ... it is happening.
Fair enough.
Well, we need to stop giving our authority to "Whitey's" system. We spend all of our time trying to fix our oppressors systems instead of making our own. We GIVE AWAY what we have. But that is because we don't understand what we have. But once again that is where our scholars come in. They are to help us understand that. But that is what there role is.
That is much easier said than done for the simple fact that as long as we refuse to acknowledge the fact that we must pull together to achieve a common goal, we will always live the life where despite all the hype and energy that goes toward a 'For Us By Us' system and mentality, at the end of the day they rule us. Do we let them? Of course, but inasmuch as we allow their system to rule us, we similarly choose to take our feet off the pedals on our way toward Freedom and Independence as a people.
Ok, I understand what you mean. I'm not talking about casting people out of the community and making them an outcast. I just mean that we have the ability to choose who we let LEAD us. And if they are failing in that regard, we have the right to... and as a matter of fact we have the responsibility to remove them from that position. Because if we leave them there, it will hinder all of us.

As a matter of fact, we need to remove some folks who are our supposed leaders right now!!
Brotha - we are 40+ million strong! That is alot of voices representative of the by and large voice of our people (at least here in the U.S.). I cannot possibly think that all of us would be on the same page when it comes to who should lead us. This is the reason why usually you would have a select few (say 15-20 people) who will represent the multi-millions. I am not saying that we should run our system like this - heck - it would be a dream come true for me if I can have the chance to hear the voice of all of us who are in existence within these borders, but what I am saying is this is how it's been. Destee (and Groupthink, for that matter) would be an excellent start on promoting something whereby the multitude of us can be heard. In that regard, we can be as responsible as we want to be, but will we be productive and successful in working together to agree on who should lead us, and how we should be led? That is the question that our current and future actions will answer.

KWABENA
 
Guess whos Bizack!

1. If that is true, it is also true that to this day, we still maintain a fear of death - another thing to confront, albeit understanding that we do not know enough about Death to fear it. We do not want to end up taken down like our leaders, but want to rise high like our leaders? Again - we indeed have work to do.

Agreed

2. They had their followers from the start? That's not what i've experienced. For example, it is to my understanding that many people went against King long before they decided to join hands with him. You even have those of us who went against Obama, then started to join the band-wagon as he got closer to election day. It's like how true are/were we to the causes we represent? Ya know...


This is true, but if the leaders we are talking about didn't at least have some strong following, there would have been no bandwagon to jump on.

Now as far as Obama, you are correct. Many went against (or better yet, were skeptical about) Obama at first. But... once (s)election day came closer, people began to cave in. Why?

Well first, people don't want to be outsiders. It's hard to go against the grain. But my own personal opinion is that if the grain has been beatin yo A*** for over 2,000 years, then you gotta do what you gotta do. How many people do you think are buck enough to do what Brotha M'bwebe Ashangi did and say, "I'm a PROUD non registered voter!" (which I commented on - Matt Mason). I got bumrushed many a times from my stance, but I stuck to it... But eventually, M'bwebe then wrote From the Plantation to the Whitehouse. And A lot of people supported him. I feel that this was what a lot of people wanted to hear.

And the second reason is.... Well... WHAT ELSE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO? After all... we HAVE to participate in these politricks. Otherwise, they will control our destiny... right?

Remember when we were talking about before? Us having "the power" but not realizing it. We are still dependent on the system of white supremacy like crack fiends to the point that we don't think we can detach ourselves from it and control our destiny outside of it. But at some point, we will (and are beginning to now) learn.

In response to
LOL... yeah, I know they have been choosing our leaders. But you know, I wasn't trying to say nuttin, cause people get upset an even indignant when you say it. This is one of the things that we as Black people have not learned to DEAL with yet.

You stated
Well see - I too could have omitted saying it, but how else will we get ahead as a people except that we confront what really needs to be confronted? See above...

I agree. But sometimes it is a catch 22. If you confront something and people disagree with it, or... don't want to deal with it, then the more you talk about it, the more you drive them away. So, I try to do like James Brown and just "Hit it and Quit it". Cause people get offended and indignant and will even feel that you are talking down to them and calling them blind and stupid.

And then there of course is the... "SEE... DAS WHY BLACK FOLK CAINT DO NUFFIN... CAUSE EIR TIME A BLACK PERSON GET IN A POSITION.... WE HATE ON THEM... WE KILLIN OURSELF" :)

OK, fine... I'm aint tryin to be no "crab in a barrel." And I'm not trying to put myself above everyone and sound like I'm Mister "know it all". I did my duty and said AND wrote about Obama AND the U.S. (S)election process long before Obama was even (s)elected. That's all I can do. Beating a dead horse won't convince anybody. People's opinion of Obama... and other leaders (for that matter) aint gown change. Even after supporting Africom and deciding to leave troops in Iraq indefinately, peoples opinions are not going to change.

But if the Grits hit the fan... whom amongst us can't say that they weren't warned?

So I'm gown from it.

And also, there are those who believe that Obama represents a "Cosmic" change and I'm not going to put my energy against that.


That is much easier said than done for the simple fact that as long as we refuse to acknowledge the fact that we must pull together to achieve a common goal, we will always live the life where despite all the hype and energy that goes toward a 'For Us By Us' system and mentality, at the end of the day they rule us. Do we let them? Of course, but inasmuch as we allow their system to rule us, we similarly choose to take our feet off the pedals on our way toward Freedom and Independence as a people.

Agreed!

Brotha - we are 40+ million strong! That is alot of voices representative of the by and large voice of our people (at least here in the U.S.). I cannot possibly think that all of us would be on the same page when it comes to who should lead us. This is the reason why usually you would have a select few (say 15-20 people) who will represent the multi-millions. I am not saying that we should run our system like this - heck - it would be a dream come true for me if I can have the chance to hear the voice of all of us who are in existence within these borders, but what I am saying is this is how it's been. Destee (and Groupthink, for that matter) would be an excellent start on promoting something whereby the multitude of us can be heard. In that regard, we can be as responsible as we want to be, but will we be productive and successful in working together to agree on who should lead us, and how we should be led? That is the question that our current and future actions will answer.

Agreed. I think it will even be even more than 15-20 people. Just like the Beast is described in the scriptures as one person, but in the physical realm is made up of countless organizations with many leaders, so will the revolution... but as for right now, only time will tell. All of our scholars are making up the "Morpheus" movement. The "Neo" movement is soon to come.
 
Peace Bro. H0rnet:

First off, to encapsulate my entire post, I will mention that Bro. Keita once said in a conversation not too long ago:

...there are those of us who do not want to hear the truth. There are those of us who feel helpless to do anything about the truth....and there are those of us who are simply too beatdown and conditioned to even want to do anything about the truth. This covers a great deal of our people.

Let us keep this in mind as we proceed...

This is true, but if the leaders we are talking about didn't at least have some strong following, there would have been no bandwagon to jump on.

Now as far as Obama, you are correct. Many went against (or better yet, were skeptical about) Obama at first. But... once (s)election day came closer, people began to cave in. Why?

Well first, people don't want to be outsiders. It's hard to go against the grain. But my own personal opinion is that if the grain has been beatin yo A*** for over 2,000 years, then you gotta do what you gotta do. How many people do you think are buck enough to do what Brotha M'bwebe Ashangi did and say, "I'm a PROUD non registered voter! <http://daghettotymz.com/current/notregistered/notregistered.html>" (which I commented on - Matt Mason). I got bumrushed many a times from my stance, but I stuck to it... But eventually, M'bwebe then wrote From the Plantation to the Whitehouse <http://daghettotymz.com/current/plantation2bighouse/plantation2bighouse.html>. And A lot of people supported him. I feel that this was what a lot of people wanted to hear.
Deep down within, we feel as though we want to stay on the plantation, enjoy massa's goods and services, but then war against that with the knowledge we accumulate over the course of time. This is a psychological matter with which will not be dealt with for quite a while. We have been so conditioned to feel a sense of belonging here, that we will have the hardest time adjusting to the political climate and culture anywhere else. In saying that, I feel as though we start out by following, but then find that 'following' will do more harm than good, but then have no other choice so then we decide to follow after all. This is not something many of us will admit, especially because we have grown to stand against what we intended to follow, but it is true. After all, with little to nothing else to do and due to the fact that we do not have a strong enough political outlook to do otherwise, we will take the same bandwagons as everyone else. Meanwhile, we will not stop our stand against it.

From the big-picture, insanity is defined as doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. I will go a step further, and be specific- people are not as politically conscious as they appear to be. They do not understand politics, what it is and how it works anymore today than they did in past times. As a result, they have expected the same things from the same game, where only the players change. How can you expect change in a system not meant to change? How can you expect things to change with the same political outlook then as you have now? On that note, I will have to admit that some, only some people's political awareness have changed since past times, and they are expecting new results, but for masses - it makes no sense to keep the same awareness level and expect things to not turn out the same.

That was seeing it from further out - now to come back into the picture, people caved in as a result of realizing that they were not as aware as they thought they were. It also speaks to the fact that many times, we do not trust our own judgment. In a way it is a sign of humbleness when you could be 'curious' prior to election day, then admit that you were wrong, but how often do we become suspicious of something, then after a major event happens we keep our suspicions? All too often we give up, and "cave in." To this day, I still sense something is going to happen and most certainly trust my own judgment far more than the U.S. Government. However, that is just me; others have different viewpoints.

Bro. M'bwebe and yourself have a greater wealth of political knowledge than most people, and we all know that knowledge is one thing that can not be taken away from you. With that understanding, you have a degree of strength on your side to hold your ground, and not allow "the grain" to intimidate you. You also know that only you control your thoughts and emotions, without giving control to others outside of you, so it would not affect you being labeled "an outsider" like it will affect others. Heck - I enjoy being considered an outsider; at least I know folks are paying attention to me! lol But as you said, you do what you have to do and for whatever reason you need to do it. I am sure if folks took the time to look into the game of politricks the way Bro. M'bwebe did, he would not have to come out and say all that he said. However, it helps to get a different perspective on things, and not only did people want to hear it, but they needed to hear it just as much. That is the mark of being a great writer - telling folks what they need to hear.

And the second reason is.... Well... WHAT ELSE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO? After all... we HAVE to participate in these politricks. Otherwise, they will control our destiny... right?

Remember when we were talking about before? Us having "the power" but not realizing it. We are still dependent on the system of white supremacy like crack fiends to the point that we don't think we can detach ourselves from it and control our destiny outside of it. But at some point, we will (and are beginning to now) learn.

"What else are we supposed to do?" is a euphemism for "I don't know what to do!" (remember what Bro. Keita said) We have been so accustomed to a short-term-oriented lifestyle that many of us are not so willing to strive for something such that we must give up something we value to, over the course of time, have something most valuable! For example, how many of us will put carpool in order to save up for a bus (let alone our very own bus transit service)? When in doubt, we have always wanted to easiest way out! Some of us without choice have dealt with things the hard way for a while, but had we been more trusting and cooperative toward one another, we would reap excellent benefits. There is something we can do to obtain empowement; we just do not trust our judgment well enough to do it. In accords with the lifestyles we live today we will always cleave to white supremacy. However, time spent doing something empowering for all of us where cooperation is done at the highest level, we will see that we can overcome GWS after all!

I agree. But sometimes it is a catch 22. If you confront something and people disagree with it, or... don't want to deal with it, then the more you talk about it, the more you drive them away. So, I try to do like James Brown and just "Hit it and Quit it". Cause people get offended and indignant and will even feel that you are talking down to them and calling them blind and stupid.
This speaks to the psychological and emotional development of our people. Wow what a wonder...what will life be like if we were all open-minded welcome criticism no matter how harsh knowing that as painful as it may be, it will only result in us being better? Again, we do not live a life where we are accustomed to change on a constant basis; we are accustomed to change usually on an occasional basis. Change on a constant basis can easily lead to frustration, and we know what happens from there. Bottom line - there is no comfort like comfort, and we will not give that up for the world.
And then there of course is the... "SEE... DAS WHY BLACK FOLK CAINT DO NUFFIN... CAUSE EIR TIME A BLACK PERSON GET IN A POSITION.... WE HATE ON THEM... WE KILLIN OURSELF"
Well...are we really ready for change??? I suspect that when we talk about true change in our lives, it is the result of wishful thinking.
OK, fine... I'm aint tryin to be no "crab in a barrel." And I'm not trying to put myself above everyone and sound like I'm Mister "know it all". I did my duty and said AND wrote about Obama AND the U.S. (S)election process long before Obama was even (s)elected. That's all I can do. Beating a dead horse won't convince anybody. People's opinion of Obama... and other leaders (for that matter) aint gown change. Even after supporting Africom <http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58254&highlight=Africom> and deciding to leave troops in Iraq indefinately, peoples opinions are not going to change.

But if the Grits hit the fan... whom amongst us can't say that they weren't warned?

So I'm gown from it.

And also, there are those who believe that Obama represents a "Cosmic" change and I'm not going to put my energy against that.
Same here...my political philosophy has nothing to do with who is in office. It all has to do with my understanding of the de facto political system on this land. No matter who steps foot into office, the same 'powerful elite' have the control. Unlike us, they can plan and execute 5- 10- 15- and 20-year plans and agendas. Over the course of that time, they do not have to worry about how they will survive, and most importantly, they participate in activities that call for them to keep their powerful status. Can we say the same?
Overall, I do not need to convince anyone to see what I see politically speaking. I have concluded after enough attempts that pro or con, the consequences will be faced. As for the remainder of what I would say, Ditto..., or in your words, i'm grown from it as well.
Agreed. I think it will even be even more than 15-20 people. Just like the Beast is described in the scriptures as one person, but in the physical realm is made up of countless organizations with many leaders, so will the revolution... but as for right now, only time will tell. All of our scholars are making up the "Morpheus" movement. The "Neo" movement is soon to come.
True indeed.

KWABENA
 
this really saddens me to see these two men who both have so much to offer carrying on this way. I have seen and heard both of these men speak. I have enjoyed both, however this is what happens when ego takes over.

True indeed.

What we need to do is live and learn from this experience, and ensure that Our/His-story does not repeat itself.

KWABENA
 

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