Matriarchy

[Kwango_Likemba]

Perhaps we need to bring some sort of rites of passage back in our community so that our young women and men will know their proper roles instead of growing up confused.

Oh please... You have no idea of the authentic role of women in BLACK AFRICAN society, surely not in African village today. Today, in the village men grant females the same leadership roles as males. No one can curse the decision of a female elder in the village! If 2 people are involved in argument and female elder shows up, they will stop before she order them to do so. Persons with this kind of power ares naturally feared and revered. This is the place of women in the indigenous Luba village. But everyone knows ISLAMIC (and Christian) men have disdain for women. They use religion to maintain their grip on power. And you are doing the same thing... The indigenous Luba community will never bless you!

 

[Ralfa'il]

Kwango

Stop hating on strong women Ralfa’il! You hate seeing BLACK men in charge and being able to make you obey them! Congolese women are not weak or bullied! They make babies, clean the house, cook 2 or 3 meals a day...but also make decisions and guide the man! You can't stop Black women in country and town form being spiritually strong.. How many women you see in indigenous BLACK Africa getting the same treatment of women in Islamic countries? Interestingly enough you are Muslim and you don’t want women involved and taking power. Now, I see you are non progressive man. I am sorry to say, Islam has screwed your mind.

I don't hate strong women, I'm just not attracted to them and think that it's detrimental to our community for women to be acting strong and manish.

We need a balance.

No one said anything about disliking "spiritually strong" women, those are your words, not mine.

You talk about the Congolese women making babies and cooking 2 or 3 meals a day for thier families; well most of our women aren't doing that.
They are having babies but most young women in this society aren't cooking for their families, most are only concerned with working and making money.

We need to start being more family oriented instead of running around chasing dollars.

Oh please...

I aim to...

You have no idea of the authentic role of women in BLACK AFRICAN society, surely not in African village today. Today, in the village men grant females the same leadership roles as males. No one can curse the decision of a female elder in the village! If 2 people are involved in argument and female elder shows up, they will stop before she order them to do so. Persons with this kind of power ares naturally feared and revered. This is the place of women in the indigenous Luba village. But everyone knows ISLAMIC (and Christian) men have disdain for women. They use religion to maintain their grip on power. And you are doing the same thing... The indigenous Luba community will never bless you!

With all that fighting you claim they're doing overthere, maybe they should save up all the blessings they can for themselves.

How can you say Muslim men have a disdain for women when we are allowed to have up to 4 wives?

If the more patriarchal Islamic belief system is so bad and inferior then why does it end up conquering and dominating all the matriarchal systems it comes against?

Too many African leaders slaughtered their own people, sold their own people, abused their women, and gave them away to Arabs and Europeans as wives and concubines and they ended up paying the price for it.
Many are still selling their souls to the devil by giving away valuable resources just for a little wealth.


Do you expect God to bless you when you slaughter up your own people and give away your women and resources; then get mad at the Arab or white man because he has sense enough to keep his?

No.

Get your own house in order and start adopting new systems of belief instead of the same old traditions and maybe you'll see a change.
Maybe you'll see success.

:weird: Now where's my dinner?

 

[Kwango_Likemba]

Too many African leaders slaughtered their own people, sold their own people, abused their women, and gave them away to Arabs and Europeans as wives and concubines and they ended up paying the price for it.
Many are still selling their souls to the devil by giving away valuable resources just for a little wealth.

Men did it, men do it!

Get your own house in order and start adopting new systems of belief instead of the same old traditions and maybe you'll see a change.
Maybe you'll see success.

You got to be kidding me!

I don't hate strong women, I'm just not attracted to them and think that it's detrimental to our community for women to be acting strong and manish.

You talk about the Congolese women making babies and cooking 2 or 3 meals a day for thier families; well most of our women aren't doing that.
They are having babies but most young women in this society aren't cooking for their families, most are only concerned with working and making money.

We need to start being more family oriented instead of running around chasing dollars.

With all that fighting you claim they're doing overthere, maybe they should save up all the blessings they can for themselves.

How can you say Muslim men have a disdain for women when we are allowed to have up to 4 wives?

If the more patriarchal Islamic belief system is so bad and inferior then why does it end up conquering and dominating all the matriarchal systems it comes against?

Ralfa’il, like I told you, go to Congo to see for yourself if I am lying! You will stop your silly insinuations when you will see for yourself the violence in my country brought up by the Rwandans! But to be fair, you will never travel to Central Africa. Materially you have everything in the USA, why going to a place of paucity and horror right? The peoples (and not 'tribes') of Africa are fighting amongst themselves and the abuses and terrorism heightened because Africans became a conquered people! Arab and European domination on Black Africans is the root of the cruelty in Africa! The foreign policies are the root of wars on the continent! This is precisely what the patriarchy colonizers do to prevent Black Africans from waking up to their tradition (SELF-KNOWLEDGE), oneness and prosperity.

You are in a deep sleep and dreaming in a foreign world Ralfa’il, wake up! You need to realize the full potential of women before patriarchal domination on this earth! Africa was one of the greatest forces for good in the world, strong and deep-rooted in wisdom and dignity! Africa had the ultimate respect for human lives, the intense humanity that is the quality of women! The Black African race was united! Women power was not to flaunt its wealth and strength, but it was a Great Power whose greatness was indestructible because it is built not on fear, envy and suspicion, nor won at the expense of others, but founded on hope, trust, friendship and directed to the good of all mankind! This is still the basis of human life in African villages. Family lineage is still matrifocal, with children absolutely respecting the authority of their mothers and females elders and far less focused on the paternal. These are the cultural traits of Bantu Africa, you need to wake up to that! You can resist our claims for a time, due to a poisonous religion and the HATE (yes HATE) for women who ruled the earth with the BALANCE you speak of! The Neolithic and the early historic cultures were matrifocal cultures they created much human civilization, agriculture, city planning, architecture, and the core of technologies that still shape human life to this day developed before 5000 BC! Yet you don’t want to accept the TRUTH!

Africa abounds of fierce, hardworking and independent women and you will have trouble controlling them. The more you repress a Black African woman the more you are causing damage to yourself and others! You expect Black women to be ashamed of their freedom, confidence, knowledge and innate sexual powers? You want us to the sacrificial victims and men’s property? It’s not happening!!! Only weak men feel bullied. I think you are weak. Wicked women mistreated you and installed fear in you, now you want impotence in all women? How can you have respect for Black women, if you have difficulty seeing African women in power?? Can you see that these foreign religions are dividing us even more than they are uniting us? You know something? The Great Goddess-African-Traditional-Religion is one of the best religions on earth. For instead of killing, wounding and destroying one another’s properties like in Islam or Christianity, we seek to unite and keeping the peace and those properties. The power-ego-patriarchy religion is systematically degrading us in every step of the way! The Arabo-islamization of our continent and Christianity of the Europeans cause so much self hatred and lack of respect in Africa. I condone the ideological and philosophical positions of Christians or Muslims! Enough of the child-like confusion going on in the Black Race…AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING SO SHALL IT BE IN THE END! You are going to learn to accept it.

 

[Kwango_Likemba]

How can you say Muslim men have a disdain for women when we are allowed to have up to 4 wives?

If the more patriarchal Islamic belief system is so bad and inferior then why does it end up conquering and dominating all the matriarchal systems it comes against?

The practice of polygamy has been the tradition of many Black African communities and many nationalities throughout history, so what? Throughout much of Black Africa history, women dominated all levels of decision-making processes, hence women in those cultures have also set and practiced polyandry (the mating of one woman with more than one man). Even in the many of societies where men determined right and wrong, women still had much to say! In pre-colonial Africa, in many matrifocal countries, men could chose to get several wives, but obviously there was no discrimination against women. Women felt never betrayed! But the Islamic and Christians men bully women and others it's that simple. I never said they were 'inferior' but they are largely 'brutes' who will use their force or power to exploit others. Their lust for dominance will not stop until women take a stand that can challenge them by being independent and create humanistic systems. If our traditions made perfect societies where men and women behaved with moral consciousness, there is no need for you to tell me to value the foreign morals of the male-dominant cultures.

 

[Sun Ship]

I hope I understand your question brother and will try to respond as best I can. Just for some background - I'm speaking as a woman in Africa today . I see this in a very wide context first and then we can narrow it down. Africans have been socialized in a way that has relegated women to a secondary position under men. Men own the resources, make the decisions and policies and rule the world. However the world isn't that great is it? For a long time (and it still continues in some parts) girls were not educated (what's the point) and were/are used as items for barter. Right now there is a community in Northern Kenya in which there have been inter-clan disputes resulting in loss of life. The traditional conflict resolution system administered by the clan elders (not suprisingly all men) have decided that the compensation for loss of life shall be as follows:
Loss of a male life - 100 camels
Loss of female life - 50 camels

Are men and women equally valued? Obviously not. I live in context where poverty is feminized, HIV and AIDS have a feminine face, sexual violence and domestic violence against women is sky rocketing and rape is used as a tool of war. I live in a context where the number one worry for women and girls is that they will be raped. Is this a case of a few men gone crazy and doing crazy things? Some may argue so. I disagree. This is the case of a system that has socialized women and men to place men over women in a position of power justified by the fact that this is the way it's supposed to be...God intended men to be leaders and women to follow. I argue that no God I know would want to see so many women downtrodden and abused. Forced into such indignity for the sake of what? I live in a context where women are beasts of burden who have little or no say as to how their life turns out

For me I won't go into the use of words like queen etc that Rafail really detests. Actually I agree with him but from a different angle only because historically women's suffering has been placed on a pedestal as virtuous and feminine. I ain't having none of that. This virtuous woman is traded and inherited like a piece of land or a house. I don't like that. I cannot say enough about the plight of African women and women in the so called third world in general. I also realize that this thread specifically addresses the African American context and I don't want to take away from that. Still I wanted to give you a bit of background

I work for an organization that seeks to increase the numbers of women participating in policy and decision making. We also work to eliminate those socio-cultural practices that have been detrimental to women's health and well being. We don't believe in a "either/or" kind of system we believe in a system where both women and men work together for their common and equal benefit. We work towards a ststem where neither women nor men are chained down by socially imposed roles and responsibilities. We work toward redefining these roles to make them equitable and fair. We work against seeing either men or women as a homogenous group. We work towards fixing the mess we are in. We are one of many such organizations.

When I think of leadership I don't think of a particular sex or gender. I think of responsible individuals of integrity that work for the good of women, men and children. I believe in having a vision and mine is equality or at least equity.

Patriarchy has screwed us because it has placed power completely in the hands of one particular group. This will not work. Matriarchy would do the same. We need to work towards a balance. We need a mental shift.

The main gist of my earlier thread was that somehow some men (well really one in this case) seem to want to impose leadership on women who don't even want it. It's like colonization for pete's sake!

For the record Sister fanyamambo, I don’t believe in patriarchal rule and matriarchal rule has never really existed. Women have yet to set up a gender based ruling oligarchy solidifying power through absolute female dominance. Also, as far as this patronizing sisters with platitudes, nowhere in any of my post, to the best of my knowledge, will you ever see me use the epithet queen, to describe Black women (for various reasons).

Secondly, sister as an African American male, I am living in a country (US) that has a long history of battles by women and African Americans when it comes to civil rights and equality. One thing I have philosophically surmised, "that there is no such thing as equality"; but I do believe that one can have fairness, balance and harmony. Even though there is nothing you have said in your post about the misogynous and unfair treatment of women by men that I can disagree with, but to search for equality in the context of a patriarchal cultural paradigm is fruitless. African Americans are constantly finding that out, as they have sought to find equality in a paradigm of systemic racism, cultural hegemony and institutionalized white supremacy.

IMO Women have to reevaluate their own innate and intuitive reasoning along with their unique perspectives as it applies to intellect, societal needs and social structures. Then this has to be put into context with masculinity and integrated toward a real balance, based on the unique qualities of both genders.

Equality though it sounds noble, is once again a clever word from the lexicon of white patriarchs, just like the word matriarchy. Equality really means things can always be viewed equally, only in the context of absolute male domination.

Another problem is what I alluded to in another thread; so many socio-cultural practices from matristic societies were adopted by patriarchs and have been historically misconstrued, abused and inculcated with the values and ideologies of patriarchs. It will sometimes be difficult for many women to define alternative realties when the “baby and the bathwater seems to be so filthy”. For example, socialism in practice, became a distortion of communalism, the equitable African marital practice now defined as polygamy (and is many times abused by males) had its roots in matristic pre-patriarchal culture, in the realm of male domination the baring of the woman’s natural body and eroticism has become pornographic and sinful, and also child care and the preparation of sustenance (cooking) has become viewed as indentured servitude rather than a natural congruent part of the family whole. So many times, when women counteract their oppressive conditions or try to compete in today’s world, either they reject everything culturally abused by men or they feminize and reconstitute the same old linear cultural norms and ideologies of the western world. In other words, too many times when women strive for equality, at its best, it becomes patriarchy with breast and with a dress on.

I believe if women divinely revaluate the very core of this societies psyche and arcane practices, then the changes that they could bring to fruition may be more rewarding and more substantive, for women as well as for men.