n november 1960, malcolm x(x) & bayard rustin(br) met at radio station wrai n nyc 2 discuss their approaches 2 the ? of race n the us. at the time, br, 48, was a close advisor to a. philip tandolph & dr. martin luther king, jr., who represented 2 generations of nonviolent leadership n the struggle 4 an integrated, non-racial society. x, 35, was the most charismatic disciple of elijah muhammed, spiritual head of the noi. this meeting, 1 of several historic ones b/t the 2 men is significant. 1st, it clearly delineates the tactics & objectives of the integrationists & the separatists. 2md it occurred at the moment when the civil rights movement was poised 2 capture the full attention of the nation. 3rd, it reflects the tradition of engaging 1's opponents n reasoned, thoughtful debate - an approach other leaders were reluctant to follow n x's case. finally, it poses a ? still relevant 2day: can the us fulfill the promise of its founding documents & bcome a truly pluralistic society or will various minorities b tempted 2 pursue a separatist agenda? a tape of the discussion was provided 2 me from a friend. the program host began by asking the 2 men 2 "tell us about ur organization & what it stands 4."
X: n the past 2 yrs, the hon. elijah muhammad has become the most talked ahout blk man n amerikkka b/c he is having such miraculous success n getting his program over among the so-called negro masses. time magazine last year [1959] wrote that he has eliminated from among his followers alcohol, dope addiction, profanity-all of which stems from disrespect of self. he has successfully eliminated stealing & crime among his followers. time also pointed out that he has eliminated adultery & fornication, & prostitution, making blk men respect their women, something that has been characteristically absent among our men. time also pointed out that muslims, followers of elijah muhammad, hv eliminated juvenile delinquency.
when u think about it, time was giving mr. muhammad credit 4 being 1 of the greatest moral reformers that has appeared among the so-called negroes yet. a few months later, us news & world report pointed out that mr. muhammad was successful n stressing the importance of economics. the point behind his program, farms 2 feed our people, factories 2 manufacture goods 4 ourselves, businesses 2 create jobs 4 ourselves, is 2 b economically independent rather than sit around waiting 4 the yt man 2 give us jobs.
what the hon. elijah muhammad has been teaching is not what we hv been accused of: nationalism. nationalism is the political approach to the problems that r confronting the so-called negro n us. the aim of the blk nationalist is the same as the aim of the muslim. we r pointing toward the same goal. the difference is n method. we say the only solution is the religious approach; this is y stress the importance of a moral reformation. i would like to stress that mr. muhammad is not a politician. he does not believe polities is the solution to the so- called negro's problem. it will take god. god will hv 2 hv a hand n it, b/c the problem of the so-called negro is different from the problems of any other blk people anywhere on this earth since the beginning of time. every condition of the so-called negro was pre-ordained & prophesied. we believe that we r living n the fulfillment of that prophecy 2day. we believe that our history n america, our experiences at the hands of slave masters, is n line w biblical prophecy. we believe that mr. muhammad's presence among so-called negroes here n america is n line w biblical prophecies.
host: does this involve the creation of a separate state?
x: it involves the creation of a blk state for the blk man f not n america then somewhere on this earth. f not abroad, then here n america. primarily it involves acquiring some land that the blk man can call his own. f the powers that b don't want it here, then they should make it possible for us to do it somewhere else.
host: it does involve politics, then.
x: any religion that does not take n2 consideration the freedom & the rights of the blk man is the wrong religion. politics as such is not the solution. the divine solution would hv 2 hv that ingredient in it. u can call it politics f u want, but the overall problem of the so-called negro n amerikkka is not a political problem as such, it is an economic problem, a social problem, a mental problem, & a spiritual problem. only god can solve the whole problem.
rustin: i am very happy 2 b here & i think malcolm can clarify some of the ? s he has brought up n my mind. i believe the great majority of the negro people, blk people, r not seeking anything from anyone. they r seeking 2 become full-fledged citizens. their ancestors hv toiled n this country, contributing greatly to it. the us belongs 2 no particular people, & n my view the great majority of negroes & their leaders take integration as their key word-which means that rightly or wrongly they seek 2 become an integral part of the us. we hv, i believe, much work yet to do, both politically & through the courts, but i believe we hv reached the point where most negroes, from a sense of dignity & pride, hv organized themselves 2 demand 2 become an integral part of all the institutions of the us. we r doing things by direct action which we feel will further this cause. we believe that justice for all people, including negroes, can b achieved.
this is not a unique position, & while a controversial 1 it is certainly not as controversial as the 1 x supports. therefore i would like 2 ask him this ?: the logic of ur position is 2 say 2 blk people n this country: we have 2 migrate & set up some state n africa. it seems 2 me that this is where u hv to come out.
x: well, mr. r, let me say this about full-fledged or as they say first-class citizenship. most of the so-called negro leaders hv got the negro masses used 2 thinking n terms of 2nd-class citizenship, of which there is no such thing. we who follow the hon. elijah muhammad believe that a man is either a citizen or he is not a citizen. he is not a citizen by degree. f the black man n us is not recognized as a 1st-class citizen, we don't feel that he is a citizen at all. people come here from hungary & r integrated n2 the us way of life overnight, they r not put n2 any 4th class or 3rd class or any kind of class. only 1 who is put n this category is the so-called negro who is forced 2 beg the yt man 2 accept him. we feel that f 100 yrs after the so-called emancipation proclamation the blk man is still not free, then we don't feel that what lincoln did set them free n the 1st place.
r: this is all well and good but u r not answering my ?.
x: i am answering ur ?. the blk man n us, once he gets his so-called freedom is still 9,000 miles away from that which he can call home. his problem is different from that of others who r striving 4 freedom. n other countries they r the majority & the oppressor is the minority. here, the oppressor is the majority. the yt man can just let you sit down. he can find someone else 2 run his factories.
so we don't think the passive approach can work here. we don't c that any1 other than the so-called negro was encouraged 2 seek freedom this way. the liberals tell the so-called negro 2 use the passive approach & turn the other cheek, but they hv never told yts who were n bondage 2 use the passive approach. they don't tell the yts n eastern europe who r under the russian yoke 2 b passive n their resistance. they giv them guns & make heroes out of them & call them freedom fighters. but f a blk man becomes militant n his striving against oppression then immediately he is classified as a fanatic.
the yt man is posing as the leader of the so-called free world, & the only way he can b accepted as the leader of the so-called free world is 2b accepted by the majority of the people on this earth, the majority of whom r not yt people. they measure him by the way he treats the nonyt people here. this integration talk is hypocrisy, meant to impress our brothers n africa or asia.
r: then what u r saying is that u r opposed 2 integration b/c it is not meaningful & can't work. f u believe that integration is not possible, then the logic of ur position should b that u r seeking 2 find a piece of territory & go to it. either u r advocating the continuation of slavery, since u feel we cannot get integration by the methods that I advocate-which is 2 say the slow, grinding process of integration - or u r proposing separation.
x: we believe integration is hypocrisy. f the government has 2 pass laws 2 let us n2 their education system, f they hv 2 pass laws 2 get the yt man 2 accept us n better housing n their neighborhoods, that is the equivalent of holding a gun to their head, & that is hypocrisy. f the yt man were to accept us, w/o laws being passed, then we would go 4 it.
r: do u think that is going to happen?
X: well, ur common sense tells u, sir, that it's not going to happen.
r: but f u cannot do it through the constitutional method, & u cannot do it through brotherhood, then what do u c as the future of blk people here & why should they stay?
X: as any intelligent person can c, the yt man is not going 2 share his wealth w his ex-slaves. but god has taught us that the only solution 4 the ex-slave & the slave master is separation.
r: then u do believe n separation.
X: we absolutely do believe n separation.
r: well, r u being logical by saying, "let's take over a territory, a part of the us" or r u saying, let's go outside?
X: i think both r logical. the land could be anywhere. when the hon. em teaches us that we hv 2 hv some land of our own, it means just that, that we have 2 hv some land of our own. now f the master's intention is good, since we have been faithful workers, i should say faithful servants, all these yrs, then it seems he should giv us some of these states.
r: all right, now it is clear that u r advocating separation.
X: separation not integration.
r: all right, now that is clear we can put that out of the way & move on to other things. isn't there an inconsistency n ur economic position? where r they going 2 move to? when moses took his people n2 the desert, he had a pretty clear idea of where he was going.
X: well, mentioning moses is just right. the people that moses was leading were probably the closest parallel to the problems confronting the so-called negro. moses' people were slaves n a land that was not theirs. moses' people had a slave mentality, they were worshipping a god that was not their own. the negro in us is the same way, he worships the yt man's god, & he is following the yt man's religion. they r n the same fix-socially, mentally, politically, spiritually-as the people whom moses grew up amongst, 4,000 years ago. f u'll recall, moses didn't advocate integration. moses advocated separation. nowhere n the bible will u find that moses told his people to integrate themselves w pharaoh. His 1 doctrine was: let my people go. that meant separate, not seek integration n the house of bondage. it did not mean to seek the acceptance of the slave master. he said: f u follow me, i will lead u 2 a land flowing w milk and honey. he never told any1 where that land was. he never told the people where he was taking them, or what they would have to go through. f u go back 2 that time u will c that some of them believed n him but many were afraid of the slave master. they didn't believe they could get along w/o Pharaoh. they didn't believe anybody would giv them a job f pharaoh didn't. they didn't believe they could hv an economic system free of pharaoh. remember, pharaoh himself never opposed moses. he always got magicians to oppose moses. today the modern slave master gets a lot of so-called negro politicians to oppose elijah muhammad & work a lot of magic to make the so-called negroes think he is a crazy man, just as pharaoh had magicians to make the hebrews think moses was some kind of crazy man.
but now let me say this: we feel the Hon em is a modern moses!
some people say adam clayton powell is a modern moses & some say mlk is a modern moses, but no 1 can claim 2b a modern moses until he finds out what the 1st moses did. moses never advocated integration. He advocated complete separation. he didn't advocate passive resistance, he advocated an eye 4 an eye & a tooth 4 a tooth. love ur enemy: as long as u teach a man that kind of philosophy, he'll remain a slave.
r: well, i am a great advocate of nonviolence, but i think all this talk about whether 2 integrate or not, & getting involved n the economic life of this country might b more interesting to me f i knew where u wanted to lead people. but i don't know where u want 2 go. i don't think u do, either.
X: yes we do. we can take some land right here, sir.
r: yes, but f u do not believe n integration, & they don't love u, do u think they r going 2 giv u 10 or 12 states?
X: ah, mr. rustin: the predicament that a man is n is what makes him reach certain decisions. us is n the worst predicament of any country n the history of the world.
Rustin: i agree...
X: now what is causing this predicament? the race problem. us's #1 problem is the so-called negro. what must we do? what must i do about this negro problem? & whenever us is attacked on the race problem, what can she say?
rustin: she can say a lot.
X: what?
r: i'll tell u what. i hv spent 25 yrs of my life on the race ?, & i hv been 22 times to jail. america can say that until 54, negroes could not go to school w yts. now they can. negroes could not join trade unions, but now they can. i do not say any of this is perfect, but it is enough 4 us 2b able 2 answer russia & china & the rest on the race question &, more important, it is enough 2 keep the great majority of negroes feeling that things can improve here. until u hv some place to go to, they r going to want to stay here.
now, i want 2 stop right here & get something clear. n muhammad's mind, this may b a religious matter, but n the minds of his followers the muslim movement is a psychological & political concept. they do not read the koran, they read the bible. they r essentially, culturally, christian, not muslims. y therefore do they call themselves muslims? b/c they do not want 2 use the same religious terminology that their masters used.
most negroes who were brought 2 us came from the west coast of africa, long before the spread of islam to that part of africa...
X: that is what the yt man taught u...after stripping u of ur original culture. now consider the mali empire -this shows the influence of the muslim religion n west africa b4 the discovery of us.
r: i am not putting down the culture of west africa, i am just saying that the islamic influence came later. all over west africa u will find wonderful sculptures which were the sources 4 much 20th century european art, notably picasso & cubism. now these figures could not hv been made f the influence of islam had prevailed, be-cause, as u ought to know, muslims r not allowed to create figures n their art objects.
X: let me quote from the times last sunday. it says that islam is spreading like wildfire n nigeria & christianity is only skin-deep.
?: does progress involve a greater sense of racial identity?
r: i believe it is very important to hv a great sense of racial identity b/c I believe it is quite impossible 4 people 2 struggle creatively f they do not truly believe n themselves. i believe that dignity is 1st. this 4 me is doubly important because believing n integration & not being told where we are 2 go, i can c nothing more logical than staying here & struggling 4 1's rights. also b/c of moral principles-but leave them aside 4 the moment-i can c no way 4 the negro to struggle except through non-violence & a dedication to a strategic non-violence as a matter of principle. now therefore f u r going to struggle w non-violence 2 a certain extent u r going 2 hv a certain affection 4 the people who are mistreating u. now affection 4 the other fellow is not possible w/o a great sense of dignity of oneself & there4 the dignity of the negro 4 me is not something that is an aside. it is an essential of the struggle. the people n montgomery were able to struggle & get integration on their buses 4 a simple reason: 10 yrs b4 they could not hv done it b/c they did not believe n themselves. when they believed n themselves they could b socially affectionate to the opposition while at the same time they could be extremely militant & walking & being prepared to sacrifice, i think this is most important & i would therefore agree w X that doing away w the ugliness resulting from poverty & their position n society is very necessary & important. we can certainly agree here.
now let me ask u another ? b/c i want to clarify ur position on the jewish ?. where do u & ur group come out on this ? i've been given to understand that ur position is -particularly n harlem- that 1 of the reasons that negroes r so oppressed is that the jews r exploiting them & that the jews r attempting 2 exploit the arab world & stir up difficulties n the middle east. i'd like 2 know f this is a misunderstanding i hv.
X: f u hv read what the hon em has written & he has written much, i don't think u can find an article where he has ever pointed out the jew as an exploiter of the black man, he speaks of the exploiter. period.. he doesn't break it down n terms of french or englishmen or jew or german, he speaks of the exploiter & sometimes the man who is the most guilty of exploitation will think u r pointing the finger at him & put out the propaganda that u're anti-this or anti-that, we make no distinction b/t exploitation & exploiter.
r: what do u mean that the man who is the most exploited will put out propaganda?
X: i say this that when a man puts out propaganda against muslims usu that man feels that the finger is being pointed at him but-
r: n other words,u feel that many jews feel that way.
X: i don't know. but i say that u cannot find anything that the hon., em has written or said that at anytime will label the jew as an exploiter. , no sir, but he speaks about the exploitation & oppression & the deception that has been used against the blk people n us., now the man that is guilty (let) whoever is guilty wear that shoe., but he has never made that distinction b/t a frenchman - & again- or a jew or a german. an exploiter is an exploiter, i don't care what kind of label u put on him-u can't duck it.
an observation: as opposed 2 traditional pan africanism, malcolm had a different conception of the role of afrika n the pan afrikan scheme. historically, the idea was that new world intellectuals, new world blks had a responsibility 2 participate n the redemption of afrika, the ousting of imperialism n afrika. certainly malcolm identified w that, but malcolm also felt n response 2 the tremendous upsurge of national liberation on the continent itself that afrika was now n a position 2b a crucial positive force n the liberation of afroamerikkkans. so the center of gravity of the panafrikanist struggle ****ed 2 afrika w malcolm which is just a reflection of post wwII reality 1st glimpsed n 1945 at the manchester (england) pan afrikan conference & he developed a political theory which places afrika @ the center of afroamerikkka s redemption.
may 19, 1987, nyc, harlem, something quite important occurred n new york city that day. lenox boulevard was officially renamed malcolm x boulevard, becomming the 1st city n the world to name a street after malcolm x. it was a serious struggle & a major coalition of blk s, from street gangs to blk professors came 2gether 2 force political recognition. it was a major victory given the fact that malcolm represents something about the blk community that stands n tension w the rest of the political culture of this country & 2 name that street, a major thouroughfare, after malcolm will b a gr8 inspiration 4 generations 2 come & hopefully may lead 2 greater struggle & a meaningful carrying 4ward of his legacy. it is all the more impressive b/c lenox boulevard, hereafter respectfully referred 2 as malcolm x boulevard intersects directly w adam clayton powell blvd, & these 2 streets r major avenues in the harlem community.
i was n discussion w some1 & the mention of the street named after adam clayton powell entered n. this person inquired as 2 whether that name still stood, as i had been away from nyc 4 some time. i assured that person that, given the struggle that transpired @ that time 2 rename the street, any change that was imposed on the harlem community, & it would hv 2 come from outside harlem, would probably b met w fierce, violent resistance & would prob result n a riot the scope of which had not been seen since the assassination of mlk. yesterday, i received an invitation to attend a conference commenorating malcolm x in nyc. the event is occurring on the corner of malcolm x blvd & adam clayton powell blvd. i suggest that this is 1 of the most historically rich interesections, 4 our people, on the planet.
:shades: