Black Spirituality Religion : YOU DID THIS QUEEN NN

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by Keita Kenyatta, Mar 18, 2004.

  1. Keita Kenyatta

    Keita Kenyatta going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Isn't belief a wonderful thing? The very idea that we are asked to follow anything that will not allow us to use logic and reasoning is quite amazing. We speak of life after death, and yet the real challenge is to prove that DEATH IS REAL !? THE SPIRIT COMES FROM OUR CREATOR. THE SPIRIT HAS NO MIND OR MEMORY. THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE TO OUR BODY. WHEN OUR BODIES ARE NO LONGER ABLE TO HOLD THE SPIRIT WE CALL IT DEATH.

    THE SPIRIT RETURNS FROM WHENCE IT CAME. NOW OUR POOR BODIES MADE OF EARTH ARE THEMSELVES RETURNING FROM WHENCE THEY CAME, THE EARTH. HOWEVER, IT MUST TAKE A WHILE TO DO SO. WE SAY IT'S DEAD, BUT IF YOU OPEN A COFFIN 6 MONTHS OR A YEAR AFTER IT'S IN THE GROUND, YOU'LL NOTICE THAT THE NAILS AND HAIR ARE STILL GROWING ! HOW COULD THERE BE GROWTH WHERE THERE IS SUPPOSEDLY NO LIFE?? MAYBE LIFE AND DEATH NEED A NEW DEFINITION...HUH?

    SINCE THE SPIRIT DID NO EVIL BECAUSE IT'S ONLY THE LIFE FORCE...AND SINCE THE BODY IS DECOMPOSING BACK TO THE EARTH ALONG WITH THE BRAIN AND THE MEMORIES...WHERE DO WE COME UP WITH THE IDEA THAT OUR CREATOR IS GOING TO BRING HIS OWN CREATION BACK TO LIFE TO PASS A JUDGEMENT UPON IT? SURELY OUR CREATOR KNOWS WHAT THEY CREATED AND AS SUCH, IF THERE'S TO BE ANY JUDGEMENT, THE JUDGEMENT REST UPON THE CREATOR IN TERMS OF THE WORK HE DID AND NOT THE WORK ITSELF.

    OH, I FORGOT...WE BELIEVE THESE OTHER THINGS BECAUSE SOMEBODIES HOLY BOOK SAID SO, RIGHT? MY BAD.
     
  2. yahsistah

    yahsistah Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    hmmm

    wow i have to say i am deeply moved by ur point of view. Its never been put to me that way before. Def something to think about fa sho.
    Shalom Yahsistah
     
  3. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Is this someone who is not afraid to step off the beaten path?

    Ahhhhh Brother Keita, I think you have opened the door to some really deep discussion here and your opinion definitely challenges us to question what we are taught in churches, synagogues and temples.

    Do some people believe that life begins for us with our natural birth? I'm sure they do. Many of us believe that death is a time when life ends even long before the flesh decomposes. Could that be part of the reason why so many of us weep and mourn our sense of loss when someone we are close to stops breathing? We view them as "dead" and not still living albeit in another form.

    I would suspect that death is defined as the "end" of life in many if not all of the major religious books today. But I don't believe that logic or reasoning was part of the rationale behind these scriptural texts that were written so very long ago. But now you are bold enough to come to us in the 21st Century to invite us to think for ourselves and apply "logic and reasoning" to the concept of life and death and not to simply quote scripture written in a book. You have posed a great challenge and I hope that members will constructively debate this issue.

    Does logic cancel out religious beliefs or can logic enhance our beliefs? Your question of how can a cell that's supposedly dead continue to grow, is a good example of logical thinking. How can this be explained in a religious book to the degree that people will either believe it or question it?

    Thank you for the post Brother Keita because I think it stimulates a deeper type of thinking than most people are prepared or willing to do.

    Peace,
    Queenie :spinstar:
     
  4. the_story

    the_story Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    hmmm...very interesting discussion, ima sit back and watch this one....
    :heart:
    -story
     
  5. river

    river Watch Her Flow MEMBER

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    Then let's get groovin.

    By means of logic and reason I am aware that logic and reason cannot tell me everything. If I do not reveal to you the contents of my back pocket no amount of reasoning and logic will tell you what's there. Einstein couldn't tell you. If he is an honest man, Nietzsche will shrug his shoulders. Not only that but even if logic and reason allowed you to guess correctly you don't know you are correct unless I reveal it to you and logic and reason certainly cannot tell you why I put that thing in my pocket unless I or someone who knows me revealed something about myself to you.

    We know that there is a creator. I will not here address those who hold to the belief that this universe created itself. That is sheer illogic and unreasoning. Now if there is a Creator who cared enough to create this elaborate universe and populate this planet with creatures in whose hearts he has placed a desire to seek, know and fellowship with him why did he not reveal something about himself to said creatures and why not in a format and language they can understand--the written Word? Was it all for naught? Is this elaborate universe and the lives we live in it a joke? Are you laughing?

    I believe that God has revealed Himself to us in his written and living Word. Jesus is the light of the world but men resist light and love darkness because light reveals the evil in their ways. Because of unbelief we do not make ourselves available for God to reveal things about Himself to us so He finds someone who is available and tells them but we don't believe them either because we are too proud to believe that God would reveal Himself to anyone if not to us although we were not available when He was looking for someone.

    What are the fruits of attacking the written Word? Is it not the first thing the communists had to do in order to psyche people into thinking they wanted to give up their freedoms. In order to oppress the human spirit with the full consent of the human mind all you have to do is separate that mind from the knowledge of God.

    BTW, nothing grows after death. The nails and hair appear to be longer because the skin around them has shrunken. Just like if you could push your gums back your teeth will appear to be much longer.
     
  6. Keita Kenyatta

    Keita Kenyatta going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Nice try, but no cigar this time. You or no one else can prove that death exist...only transformation. The human body is nothing but a house for the energy it holds which animates it....we call or lable this animation as life. When the body is no longer able to hold the energy we call it death. The fact is that ENERGY CAN'T DIE.

    The light bulb is alive to us because it holds electricity (ENERGY) which gives it life and thus light. Should we break the bulb (body) the bulb is no more good or is what we call dead, simply because the condition of it will not allow energy to be held within it to give it life. WHAT DID WE DO TO THE ENERGY THAT WAS IN THE BULB WHEN WE BROKE THE BULB ? WE DID NOTHING TO THE ENERGY. THE ENERGY STILL EXIST BUT THE VEHICLE TO HOLD IT IS NO LONGER ABLE TO...AND SO WE LABEL IT ACCORDING TO OUR FEEBLE HUMAN UNDERSTANDING AS DEAD OR DEATH.

    Furthermore, since all life is composed of atoms or what we call (protons, nutrons, electrons)...show me or do your own research on the incredible dying proton, nutron and electron). Like I said, nice try but no cigar this week ! (smiles)
     
  7. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    What about this perspective?

    In an article written by Stephen C. Meyers, "The Origin of Life and the Death of Materialism," (Reprinted from The Intercollegiate Review 31, no. 2 (spring 1996), he wrote, "Alfred North Whitehead once said that 'when we consider what religion is for mankind and what science is, it is no exaggeration to say that the future course of history depends upon the decision of this generation as to the relations between them. For many intellectuals a scientifically-informed world view was a materialistic world view in which the mere mention of entities such as God, free will, mind, soul or purpose seemed inherently disreputable. Materialism denied evidence of any intelligent design in nature and any ultimate purpose to human existence."

    (Source: http://www.arn.org/docs/meyer/sm_origins.htm)

    Sam Vaknin asks "What exactly is death?

    A classical point of departure in defining death, seems to be life itself. Death is perceived either as a cessation of life - or as a "transit area", on the way to a continuation of life by other means. While the former approach presents a disjunction, the latter is a continuum, death being nothing but a corridor into another plane of existence (the hereafter)."

    "Death is discernible as the cessation of the exercise of force over physical systems. It is the sudden absence of physical effects previously associated with the dead object, a singularity, a discontinuity. But it should not be confused with inertia.

    Inertia is a balance of forces - while death is the absence of forces. Death is, therefore, also not an entropic climax. Entropy is an isotropic, homogeneous distribution of energy. Death is the absence of any and all energies. While, outwardly, the two might appear to be identical - they are actually the two poles of a dichotomy.

    So, death, as opposed to inertia or entropy, is not something that modern physics is fully equipped to deal with. Physics, by definition, deals with forces and measurable effects. It has nothing to say about force-less, energy-devoid physical states (oxymora)."

    "Memory is a physical effect (electrochemical activity of the brain) upon a physical system (the Brain). It can be preserved and shipped across time and space in capsules called books or artwork. These are containers of triggers of physical effects (in recipient brains). They seem to defy death. Though the physical system which produced the memory capsule surely ceases to exist - it continues to physically impact other physical systems long after its demise, long after it was supposed to stop doing so.

    Memory makes death a transcendental affair. As long as we (or what we create) are remembered - we continue to have a physical effect on physical systems (i.e., on other people's brains). And as long as this is happening - we are not technically (or, at least, fully) dead. Our death, our destruction are fully accomplished only after our memory is wiped out completely, not even having the potential of being resurrected in future. Only then do we cease to exist (i.e., to have an effect on other physical systems)."

    (Source: http://samvak.tripod.com/death.html)
     
  8. river

    river Watch Her Flow MEMBER

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    We are talking about the physical body. While it may not be possible to prove that the life energy ceased to exist after the body dies, to say that no one can prove that the body dies is sheer nonesense. Once the life force leaves the physical body NOTHING GROWS.

    The memory exist in a book and is transferred to other brains which still have the life force in them which allows them to read and comprehend what is in the book and that may make a spiritual connection with the life force that created the contents of the book but it certainly has no effect on the body from which the life force has departed. If you do not believe this then touch such a body. You will see from the cold skin that there is no energy present.
     
  9. queentswana

    queentswana Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Actually this question was NOT ABOUT THE PHYSICAL BODY AT ALL. You need to go back and read Queen's Original question on this matter, since it dealt with life after death. First we need an upgrade on what we call life. With that upgrade on what we call life, you will realize that death does not exist. Since all things come from the invisible (imperceptable) to the visible, or the unmanifested to the manifested...at what point does one define it as being alive ?
    To simplify this or take it out of the metaphysical range for greater understanding, let me sum it like this. When one has a thought, that thought exist in what we call the realm of the unseen or mind. The person having the thought can not see, taste, touch, smell or hear the thought. Technically it does not exist in the physical realm and as such, does not exist to anyone.

    Therefore, when you say you're going to build a house for example, that house does not exist to the five senses. Only the person who had that thought has the ability to manifest it into physical reality. The question now becomes, at what point did the house have life ? Was it in the manifestation of the house or in the invisible realm of thought ? Obviously if it did not LIVE IN THE REALM OF THE INVISIBLE, THERE WOULD BE NO WAY TO GIVE LIFE TO IT IN THE REALM OF THE PHYSICAL.

    To move this even deeper, before it had life in the conscious thought process which allowed it to be physically manifested as PROOF OF ITS EXISTENCE, IT HAD TO EXIST IN THE SUBCONSCIOUS THOUGHT PROCESS BEFORE IT BECAME KNOWABLE TO THE CONSCIOUS MIND WHICH MANIFESTED IT INTO PHYSICAL REALITY. AGAIN, AT WHAT POINT DO YOU DEFINE LIFE, SINCE I'VE JUST DISPLAYED A PROGRESSION OF LIFE IN DIFFERENT STAGES. MUST I NOW SPEAK OF DEATH, OR ARE YOU ABLE TO REVERSE WHAT I'VE SAID FOR CLEARER UNDERSTANDING ?

    THE ONLY REALITY IN LIFE IS WHAT WE CALL GOD. THERE ISN'T EVEN A DEVIL. TURN YOUR BIBLE TO ISAIAH 45:5-7. IT IS SUPPOSEDLY GOD SPEAKING. HE/SHE STATES "I am the Lord, and there is no other; there is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is non besides Me. I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create EVIL; I the Lord , do all these things."

    Now I hate to blow your mind with this...but when God says he creates evil...am I supposed to call God a liar and say that the Devil creates evil ? No I'm not ! Am I supposed to come up with my own interpretation of that because I've already been conditioned by organized religion to believe that God does not do evil ? No I'm not ! Does this statement that God makes shake my very belief and conditioning to the point where it's unacceptable for me to believe and as such, I have to rationalize it in order for my mind to accept it ? No I don't !

    Sadly, most of us have to do all those things because the truth will shatter us to understand it in its fullness. Just as man or the priesthood created a devil...we have created the concept we call death also.
    Sorry to do this to you....and the really sad part is that an examination of the Scriptures will reveal that the people of old had no concept of a devil either. For even they stated that EVIL CAME FROM GOD. YES, AS HUMANS WE ARE REALLY SOMETHING ELSE. WE CREATE CONCEPTS AND IDEAS SIMPLY BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T BECOME DEVELOPED ENOUGH TO ACCEPT REALITY AS IT IS. GOOD LUCK !!!

    OH, AND THANK YOU QUEEN FOR STIMULATING ME TO DO THIS...ALTHOUGH I FEEL AS IF I SHOULDN'T HAVE FOR THOSE WHO WILL NOT SEE OR HEAR.
     
  10. Keita Kenyatta

    Keita Kenyatta going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    my apologies...i forgot i was in my wifes name....but know i did this...and can't wait for your reply, however conditioned it may be
     
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