Black Spirituality Religion : Why is the Apocrypha Not Acceptable Canon?

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by UBNaturally, Mar 11, 2015.

  1. UBNaturally

    UBNaturally Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,497
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +1,736
    This is a question that is broad, yet comes with the form of reading a particular passage or writings that were presumably translated into English.

    Esdras (which is claimed to be a variation of Ezra) has 2 volumes and a total of 25 chapters in the canons called the Apocrypha.

    Here is one segment that was of interest:

    2 Esdras 6:38

    And I said, O Lord, thou spakest from the beginning of the creation, even the first day, and saidst thus; Let heaven and earth be made; and thy word was a perfect work.

    2 Esdras 6:39
    And then was the spirit, and darkness and silence were on every side; the sound of man's voice was not yet formed.

    2 Esdras 6:40
    Then commandedst thou a fair light to come forth of thy treasures, that thy work might appear.

    2 Esdras 6:41
    Upon the second day thou madest the spirit of the firmament, and commandedst it to part asunder, and to make a division betwixt the waters, that the one part might go up, and the other remain beneath.

    2 Esdras 6:42
    Upon the third day thou didst command that the waters should be gathered in the seventh part of the earth: six parts hast thou dried up, and kept them, to the intent that of these some being planted of God and tilled might serve thee.

    2 Esdras 6:43
    For as soon as thy word went forth the work was made.

    2 Esdras 6:44
    For immediately there was great and innumerable fruit, and many and divers pleasures for the taste, and flowers of unchangeable colour, and odours of wonderful smell: and this was done the third day.

    2 Esdras 6:45
    Upon the fourth day thou commandedst that the sun should shine, and the moon give her light, and the stars should be in order:

    2 Esdras 6:46
    And gavest them a charge to do service unto man, that was to be made.

    2 Esdras 6:47
    Upon the fifth day thou saidst unto the seventh part, where the waters were gathered that it should bring forth living creatures, fowls and fishes: and so it came to pass.

    2 Esdras 6:48
    For the dumb water and without life brought forth living things at the commandment of God, that all people might praise thy wondrous works.

    2 Esdras 6:49
    Then didst thou ordain two living creatures, the one thou calledst Enoch, and the other Leviathan;

    2 Esdras 6:50
    And didst separate the one from the other: for the seventh part, namely, where the water was gathered together, might not hold them both.

    2 Esdras 6:51
    Unto Enoch thou gavest one part, which was dried up the third day, that he should dwell in the same part, wherein are a thousand hills:

    2 Esdras 6:52
    But unto Leviathan thou gavest the seventh part, namely, the moist; and hast kept him to be devoured of whom thou wilt, and when.

    2 Esdras 6:53
    Upon the sixth day thou gavest commandment unto the earth, that before thee it should bring forth beasts, cattle, and creeping things:

    2 Esdras 6:54
    And after these, Adam also, whom thou madest lord of all thy creatures: of him come we all, and the people also whom thou hast chosen.

    2 Esdras 6:55
    All this have I spoken before thee, O Lord, because thou madest the world for our sakes

    2 Esdras 6:56
    As for the other people, which also come of Adam, thou hast said that they are nothing, but be like unto spittle: and hast likened the abundance of them unto a drop that falleth from a vessel.

    2 Esdras 6:57
    And now, O Lord, behold, these heathen, which have ever been reputed as nothing, have begun to be lords over us, and to devour us.

    2 Esdras 6:58
    But we thy people, whom thou hast called thy firstborn, thy only begotten, and thy fervent lover, are given into their hands.

    2 Esdras 6:59
    If the world now be made for our sakes, why do we not possess an inheritance with the world? how long shall this endure?

    Pause here... Enoch was one of the ordained living creatures that was made within the waters. Later Enoch was moved from the waters and into the "hills" (Highlands) of the dry land. Where as Leviathan remained within the moistness of the waters. Enoch was created before Adam in this writing.

    Also, "thy firstborn" and "only begotten" seems to be a reference to a people that is not a reference to "Adam". If this does refer to "Adam" (or people of Adam) as "only begotten", then we may need to decipher the relevance of this writing.


    Will come back to this later, on to the next portion that follows...

    2 Esdras 7:26
    Behold, the time shall come, that these tokens which I have told thee shall come to pass, and the bride shall appear, and she coming forth shall be seen, that now is withdrawn from the earth.

    2 Esdras 7:27
    And whosoever is delivered from the foresaid evils shall see my wonders.

    2 Esdras 7:28
    For my son Jesus shall be revealed with those that be with him, and they that remain shall rejoice within four hundred years.

    2 Esdras 7:29
    After these years shall my son Christ die, and all men that have life.

    2 Esdras 7:30
    And the world shall be turned into the old silence seven days, like as in the former judgments: so that no man shall remain.

    2 Esdras 7:31
    And after seven days the world, that yet awaketh not, shall be raised up, and that shall die that is corrupt

    2 Esdras 7:32
    And the earth shall restore those that are asleep in her, and so shall the dust those that dwell in silence, and the secret places shall deliver those souls that were committed unto them.

    2 Esdras 7:33
    And the most High shall appear upon the seat of judgment, and misery shall pass away, and the long suffering shall have an end:

    2 Esdras 7:34
    But judgment only shall remain, truth shall stand, and faith shall wax strong:

    2 Esdras 7:35
    And the work shall follow, and the reward shall be shewed, and the good deeds shall be of force, and wicked deeds shall bear no rule.

    2 Esdras 7:36
    Then said I, Abraham prayed first for the Sodomites, and Moses for the fathers that sinned in the wilderness:

    2 Esdras 7:37
    And Jesus after him for Israel in the time of Achan:

    2 Esdras 7:38
    And Samuel and David for the destruction: and Solomon for them that should come to the sanctuary:

    2 Esdras 7:39
    And Helias for those that received rain; and for the dead, that he might live:

    2 Esdras 7:40
    And Ezechias for the people in the time of Sennacherib: and many for many.


    The "Jesus" in 7:28 and 7:37 are not referring to the same persons, just wanted to get this out of the way.
    One is presumably referring to a future projection, while the other is referring to "Joshua", who came after "Moses".


    Now on to the main question within 2 Esdras 7:

    2 Esdras 7:28
    For my son Jesus shall be revealed with those that be with him, and they that remain shall rejoice within four hundred years.

    2 Esdras 7:29
    After these years shall my son Christ die, and all men that have life.

    2 Esdras 7:30
    And the world shall be turned into the old silence seven days, like as in the former judgments: so that no man shall remain.

    2 Esdras 7:31
    And after seven days the world, that yet awaketh not, shall be raised up, and that shall die that is corrupt

    2 Esdras 7:32
    And the earth shall restore those that are asleep in her, and so shall the dust those that dwell in silence, and the secret places shall deliver those souls that were committed unto them.

    When "Christ died", the writings suggest that all men died, so that no man remained... for seven days.
    Could this be referring to the "death of Jesus" that is scribed in the New Testament, or is this another death of "Jesus"?


    Anyone know if this is part of any other writings other than within the writings of Esdras?

    As for the Enoch/Leviathan story, will look more into this writing for more correlations.

    But does the Apocrypha hold more explanations for the common accepted canon, or does it create more confusion?
     
  2. UBNaturally

    UBNaturally Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,497
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +1,736
    Now on to Enoch...


    Focusing in the accepted canon first:

    OLD TESTAMENT:

    Gen 4:17
    And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

    Gen 4:18
    And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.



    Gen 5:19
    And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Gen 5:21
    And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:

    Gen 5:25
    And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:



    1Ch 1:1
    Adam, Sheth, Enosh,

    1Ch 1:2
    Kenan, Mahalaleel, Jered,

    1Ch 1:3
    Henoch, Methuselah, Lamech,


    NEW TESTAMENT:

    Luk 3:36
    Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,

    Luk 3:37
    Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,


    In Genesis 4:17,18 (read it for yourself) it is written that Cain knew his wife, and she conceived Enoch.
    • Cain begat Enoch, but Enoch does not beget Methusael

    In Genesis 5:19-21 (read it for yourself) it is written that Jared begets Enoch, who begets Methuselah
    • Jared begat Enoch, and Enoch begets Methuselah

    In 1 Chron 1-3 (read it for yourself) it is written in the lineage, Jered is before Henoch, Henoch is before Methuselah
    • Jered begat Henoch, and Henoch begets Methuselah

    In Luke 3:37 (say it with me; read it for yourself) it is written, Methusala was the son of Enoch, the son of Jared.
    • Jared begat Enoch, and Enoch begets Methusala

    So with all of these writings...

    Who begat Enoch?

    • Cain or Jared

    Who begat Methuselah?

    • Mehujael or Enoch

    The Methuselah and Methusael naming is an interesting coincidence, as both beget a Lamech

    upload_2015-3-11_22-42-50.png upload_2015-3-11_22-54-14.png
    Switch Enoch and Mehujael around, and look at...
    Cainan and Cain
    Mahalaleel and Mehujael
    Jared and Irad
    Enoch and Enoch
    Mathuselah and Methusael
    Lamech and Lamech
    Noah and Naamah... which some suggest that Naamah was the wife of Noah

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generations_of_Adam

    Connecting this with the Apocryphal story of Enoch being one of the two living creatures created before Adam was created, makes me wonder how loosely these names were used, and if these are the same stories with alternative versions, or if the chronology of these were mixed up over time.

     
  3. frankster

    frankster Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    69
    Ratings:
    +133
    Some eastern orthodox churches do accept some books of the apocrypha, some others were only relatively recently taken out of the bible.
    I think most were excluded from the bible primarily for political reasons.
    Both the Vulgate and Jerusalem bible still contains some of these books, not to mention the Ethiopic/Egyptian (Coptic Bible) scriptures.
     
  4. UBNaturally

    UBNaturally Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,497
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +1,736
    Indeed, it is not universally unaccepted.

    But what sort of political reasons?
    Would these political reasons be the of the opposing ilk for those that had no desire to remove or not include them?
     
  5. frankster

    frankster Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    69
    Ratings:
    +133
    They reveal too much.....
     
  6. UBNaturally

    UBNaturally Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,497
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +1,736
    Reveal too much like?
    Give some specifics to associate with the claim
     
  7. UBNaturally

    UBNaturally Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,497
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +1,736
  8. frankster

    frankster Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    69
    Ratings:
    +133
    God is not All Powerful.....His power is a result of His knowledge.
    Spiritual beings have a physical reality and vice versa
     
  9. UBNaturally

    UBNaturally Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    6,497
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Gender:
    Male
    Ratings:
    +1,736
    They (the Apocryphal writings) were excluded because they revealed that God is not All Powerful and that his power is a result of his knowledge?

    Is this why one thinks they excluded these books?
     
  10. frankster

    frankster Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Messages:
    497
    Likes Received:
    69
    Ratings:
    +133
    Yes....One of many
     
Loading...

Users found this page by searching for:

  1. 2 esdras 6:56