Black Spirituality Religion : Who Wrote the Pentateuch (5 Books of Moses)?

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by Dual Karnayn, Dec 26, 2005.

  1. Dual Karnayn

    Dual Karnayn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    A contradiction in the story of Ishmael suggests the story was written by more than one author. The following verses indicate that Ishmael was fourteen years old when Isaac was born:

    Abraham begot Ishmael when he was 86
    "Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to him." (Genesis 16:16)


    Abraham begot Isaac when he was 100
    "And Abraham was a hundred years old, when his son Isaac was born to him." (Genesis 21:5)



    It was customary to breast feed infants for one or two years. Presumably, Isaac was weaned one or two years after his birth. "And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned." (Genesis 21:8 KJV) At that time Ishmael was 15 or 16 years old. Sometime after that feast, Sarah became jealous of Ishmael and persuaded Abraham to send Ishmael and his mother, Hagar, away into the desert. Strangely, the author of this account describes Ishmael as a toddler: "So Abraham ... took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered about in the wilderness of Be’er-she’ba. When the water in the skin was gone, she cast {Heb. shalak } the child under one of the bushes." (Genesis 21:14-15 NRSV) Hagar carried Ishmael on her shoulder in the desert, and when she ran out of water she cast him under a bush. A while later, God told Hagar to pick him up and hold him with her hand: "... lift up the lad, and hold him in your hand ..." (Genesis 21:18 KJV) The descriptions "putting it on her shoulder, along with the child," "cast the child under a bush," "lift up the lad, and hold him in your hand" imply that Ishmael was a toddler. Further on, the writer indicates that this toddler grew up: "And God was with the lad; and he grew ..." (Genesis 21:20 KJV)

    The Septuagint’s description of Ishmael as a toddler is clearer than the English translations: "And Abraham ... put the child on her shoulder, and sent her away, and she ... wandered in the wilderness ... she cast the child under a fir tree. ... and the child cried aloud and wept. ... an angel of God called Agar ... Rise up, and take the child {Gr. paidion = small child}, and hold him in your hand ..." (Genesis 21:14-18)

    The writer of chapters 16 an 17 indicated that Ishmael was fifteen or sixteen years old when Isaac was weaned while the writer of chapter 21 indicated that Ishmael was a toddler. This suggests that Moses did not write both accounts. If Moses did not one of these accounts, what else did he not write?




    "... there is no god besides Me." (Deuteronomy 32:39 NASB) This verse declares monotheism (the belief that there is but one God). Moses could not have written it and at the same time write the following verses. "For the LORD your God is God of gods ..." (Deuteronomy 10:17 KJV) Also, "and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD." (Exodus 12:12 KJV) "Who is like to you, O LORD, among the gods?" (Exodus 15:11 KJV) "You will make no covenant with them, nor with their gods." (Exodus 23:32 KJV) If those gods did not exist, the Jews could not have made a covenant with them. "The graven images of their gods you will burn with fire." (Deuteronomy 7:25 KJV) The expression "images of their gods" implies that the graven images were merely copies of the real gods. At the time of Moses the Jews believed in the existence of other gods. Monotheism was established in Judaism after Jeremiah. The above verse of Deuteronomy (Deuteronomy 32:39) was probably written sometime after 586 BCE.
    Certain Egyptian names in the story of Joseph were not in use during Joseph’s time, not even during Moses’ time. They came into common use at about the time of King David (10th century BCE). Moses could not have written these names.




    "And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel." (Genesis 36:31 KJV) The person who wrote this verse indicates that he knew the kings of Israel: King Saul and King David. They began to reign about three hundred years after Moses. Even The NIV Study Bible acknowledges that this verse "is considered as an editing subsequent to the time of Moses" because it "presupposes the subsequent Israelite monarchy."



    "And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants ... and pursued them to Dan." (Genesis 14:14 KJV) Moses could not have written this verse because this city or area was not named "Dan" until after Moses’ death.




    "And Isaac went to Abimelech king of the Philistines to Gerar." (Genesis 26:1 KJV)If Isaac existed, he lived sometime after 1800 BCE. The Philistines were not in Canaan until after the time of Moses. They were established in the 12 century BCE.



    "... just as Israel did in the land the LORD gave to them as possession." (Deuteronomy 2:12 NIV) This phrase refers to the conquest of Canaan as an event that had taken place. Moses could not have written it, because he died before the conquest of Canaan.




    "To drive out nations from before you greater and mightier than you are, to bring you in {the land of Canaan}, to give you their land for an inheritance, as it is this day." (Deuteronomy 4:38 KJV) The phrase "as it is this day" reveals the true time of writing: after God gave the Hebrews their land of inheritance, Canaan. The same applies to the following verse. "... the Lord uprooted them {the Jews} from their land in anger and in fury and in great wrath, and cast them into another land {probably referring to the Babylonian exile}, as it is this day." (Deuteronomy 29:28 NASB) The phrase "as it is this day" indicates a time that is hundreds of years after Moses, probably after 586 BCE. (This verse is another indication that the end of Deuteronomy was written after 586 BCE.)




    "So at that time we took from the two kings of the Amorites the land beyond the Jordan ..." (Deuteronomy 3:8 NRSV) "These are the words that Moses spoke to all Israel beyond the Jordan--in the wilderness, on the plain opposite Suph, between Par'an and To'phel, La'ban, Haze'roth, and Di-zahab’ " (Deuteronomy 1:1 NRSV) The phrase "beyond the Jordan" refers to the land on the other side of the Jordan river from the writer. It refers to locations on the east side of the Jordan. This expression reveals that the writer was on the west side of the Jordan. Moses never went to the west side.




    "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he {the LORD} buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knows of his sepulchre {tomb} to this day. And Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died ... And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended. ... And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like ... Moses." (Deuteronomy 34:5-8, 10 KJV) This passage describes what happened after the death of Moses. The phrase "there arose not a prophet since in Israel like ... Moses" indicates that this passage was written after prophets inferior to Moses had arisen. (This verse dates probably after 586 BCE.)The phrase "no man knows of his sepulchre {tomb} to this day" reveals the time of writing: a time long after Moses’ death.



    "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men who were upon the face of the earth." (Numbers 12:3 KJV) The humblest man on earth would not boast about his humility. Someone else boasted for him.



    In narrative portions of the Pentateuch Moses is identified in the third person, suggesting that someone other than Moses wrote about him: "These are the Aaron and Moses to whom the LORD said ..." (Exodus 6:26 RSV) "These are the words which Moses spoke ..." (KJV) "And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it to the priests the sons of Levi ..." (Deuteronomy 31:9 KJV)




    "... then the LORD your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion upon you, and will return and gather you from all the nations, whither the LORD your God has scattered you." (Deuteronomy 30:3 KJV) Some claim that this verse is a prophecy written by Moses predicting an exile. It can also be said, the words "has scattered you" indicate that this event has already taken place. It can also be said that this verse is another indication that the latter part of Deuteronomy was written after 586 BCE.


    http://essenes.net/whowrote.html
     
  2. Fine1952

    Fine1952 Happy Winter Solstice MEMBER

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    Moses was a black African Egyptian. He wasn't even Jewish--but come to think of it--Jews weren't Jewish because the word Jew/Hebrew did not technically appear until these people migrated to Europe and Europeans coined these names to this wondering people...

    No Moses did not write the first 5 books of the bible...
     
  3. Dual Karnayn

    Dual Karnayn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    My opinion on the Pentatuech

    From all the references I've read....too many to list....I believe the Pentatuech was put together in Babylon by Persian, Hebrew, and Chaldean priests from OTHER more ancient scriptures like the REAL TORAH, the Books of Abraham, as well as the Books of Enoch and Adam & Eve.

    There are books mentioned in the Bible that are not IN the Bible like the Book of Wars.

    As Muslims, we believe every Prophet was given words of inspiration, or BOOK of laws/prophecies.

    So Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus....they all had "books" that either they wrote or people wrote of them.
    But many of these books have been lost.

    Moses was given the Tarot or Torah and it was ONLY ONE BOOK...not 5.

    It is lost to most of the world today except for the copy contained in the Ark of the Covenenant along with his rod and other relics.









    Fine

    No Moses wasn't Jewish, but he was Hebrew.

    We know Moses was an Egyptian by nationality because he was born in Egypt like the other Hebrews.

    And you're right, he wasn't Jewish because "Jew" is actually a European term for "Yahood".

    But I wouldn't go as far as to say he was a "Black African", like Zulu or Yoruba.
     
  4. Fine1952

    Fine1952 Happy Winter Solstice MEMBER

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    KNOW YOUR HISTORY....

    The words Jew/Hebrew did not surface until AFTER the migrating 'Afrim' -- 'Efvim" people arrived in Europe and were coined BY these names.

    If you then look back at the 'bible' [basic instructions before leaving earth] and you see these words know that they have been placed there in retroSPECT...

    Fine
     
  5. Dual Karnayn

    Dual Karnayn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Fine


    Are you sure about this?

    If "Hebrews" are strictly a result of people migrating to Europe then:

    Why are there lighter skinned people in Nigeria known as the Iboo who consider themselves descendants of Hebrew migrants?

    http://www.geocities.com/ahabeliyah/igbo_jews.htm



    Why is there a group of people in Ethiopia and Somalia known as the Yibirs who also consider themselves Hebrews and are seen as outsiders by the others?

    http://www.haruth.com/JewsSomalia.html


    Hebrews aren't a European invention, they're an actual group of people who hail from the Sumerian (southern Iraq) region.
     
  6. spicybrown

    spicybrown Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Confusion?

    Does it really matter who wrote the 5 books? Can we just use it as a tool for advancement if possible? I mentioned in an earlier post that all the pre-Babylonian names, renamed cities, and all other trivia and timelines seem to confuse the masses.
     
  7. Dual Karnayn

    Dual Karnayn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Spicy

    If we want to use what's contained in these 5 books for the purposes of upliftment or some of it's concepts to advance our own community....then it doesn't matter much.

    But calling these 5 books the "Books of Moses" when they clear are not must be addressed for the sake of truth.
     
  8. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Somalia's 'Hebrews' See a Better Day

    By Ian Fisher
    Djibouti Journal

    DJIBOUTI - The sultan of the Jews in Somalia is a handsome, silver-haired man named Ahmed Jama Hersi, who does not know the first thing about Judaism. He is a Muslim, as were his ancestors back at least 800 years. But he and his people are treated badly, cursed as descendants of Israelites. The name of the tribe is Yibir, or Hebrew. "Even our young people," he said, "they are ashamed when you ask them what tribe they belong to. They will not say Yibir."

    Not much is known about the lineage of the Yibir, one of Somalia's "sab," or outcast clans. But if Somalis succeed in creating a new central government - as they have been trying to do since March - the Yibir will for the first time taste political legitimacy and respect. In the 225-member assembly envisioned for a new Somalia, the Yibir get one seat. A conscious effort is being made to broaden political power in Somalia, traditionally held by old men from the four major clans. In the new assembly, women, the bedrock of Somali economic and family life, have been allocated 25 seats.

    Minority clans like the Yibir, Midgan and Tomal will have 24 seats, if the assembly is ever translated from a nice idea at a peace conference here in neighboring Djibouti to an actual government in Somalia, which has been without one since 1991. "This is the most broad-based process that Somalia has ever known," said David Stephen, a spokesman for UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan at the peace talks. "Never before have women and minorities taken part in discussions about their country."

    The question is whether this means anything. It is far from certain that any new government will ever actually sit in Somalia, though hopes are high. Perhaps more important is whether the elderly men from the major clans will cede any of their authority. Mr. Stephen said some men bluntly say that they "are only doing this to please the United Nations." But still the minority groups, who prefer to be called the "Alliance," and women are talking about the power they theoretically hold if they vote as a bloc.

    The top positions in any new government are likely to be doled out to the major clans, and any clan that makes alliances with the women and minorities in the assembly is more likely to win. "We have to have one voice and one interest as women," said Aisha al-Hajji Elmi, leader of the women delegates to the conference. She conceded that there would be pressure for women to vote with their clans rather than as women. Twenty of the women's seats are assigned to the four major clans and the remaining five to the minority clans. "It's difficult," she said, "but we have to overcome the obstacles."

    It is, at any rate, a high-minded exercise, pushed strongly by the peace conference's host, President Ismael Omar Gelleh of Djibouti - though Somalis are quick to point out that Mr. Gelleh's own government is not nearly so liberal as his vision for Somalia's. "It is not in our tradition," said Imam Mahmud Omar - an elder in one of the major clans, the Hawiye - speaking of the inclusion of women. "President Gelleh has made us do it. But we have accepted it." A Somali businessman, Muhammad Ali Muhammad, said it was an experiment worth trying. "We have seen how the men have devastated the country," he said. "So maybe the women and minority groups would be better."

    A new government is, of course, no guarantee of equality. Then again, the Yibir do not have much to begin with. Mr. Hersi, 68, who has been the elected leader of the Yibir for 22 years, was asked to speak at one of the opening sessions of the peace conference two months ago. He noted that the Yibir had suffered terribly during the years of war, but wanted badly to forgive and move on. "In the civil war I lost my son, my wife, my brother, my dignity and my self-respect," he told the delegates. "But still I have come here to work for reconciliation."

    Part of the bad treatment, he concedes, is the support of many Yibir for the dictator Muhammad Siad Barre. When he was overthrown in 1991, Mr. Hersi fled the country with surviving members of his family to live in Nairobi, Kenya's capital. But part of it is simply that they are one of the low castes of Somalis, and particularly that they are believed to be ethnic Jews in a strongly Muslim country. "We were never given our rights," he said.

    For many years the Yibir were forbidden to be educated, and Mr. Hersi says he can barely spell his name. They do work that is considered to be base, like metalworking and shoemaking. Traditionally, many earned money through the Somali belief - stretching back perhaps centuries - that it is lucky to give the Yibir a small amount of money when a son is born or at a marriage.

    Mr. Hersi cannot say exactly how or when his ancestors made it to Somalia, though he believes that about 25,000 Yibir live there and in neighboring countries like Ethiopia, Djibouti and Kenya. Stories passed down from his forefathers have it that they came as Arabic-speaking teachers more than 1,000 years ago. He said there was no relation between them and the Jews of neighboring Ethiopia, many of whom still practice Judaism. It is hard to say exactly how the Yibir are Jews, or why they treated so badly because of it.

    The Yibir not only know nothing about Judaism, but they also say they have no intention of converting or, like the Ethiopian Jews, seeking resettlement in Israel. "That would only make more problems," said another Yibir, Muhammad Ali Hassan, a trader in the emirate of Dubai on the Persian Gulf.

    The process of getting their one seat has been typically difficult. Mr. Hersi said he had never received an invitation even to come to the conference, though he made it here with the help of the UN. In negotiations with other outcast clans, the Yibir originally were given two seats in Parliament, but a few days ago, one was stripped from them. Still, he said, one seat is a start. "Before we had nothing," he said. "This is the beginning, the first step."

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Bro. Dual:

    I posted this from the link you provided because of the word “Yibir” in the piece, which I think is the same as “Eber,” the great-grandson of Shem, who was the eldest son of Noah. Abraham the Patriarch was a descendant of Eber. When Abraham and his followers left the city of Ur in Chaldea and crossed the Euphrates River on their way to Canaan (Gen. 12:5), he and his people were called “Eberus,” in order to distinguish them from the people who stayed behind. The word “Eber” translates “the region beyond” in the Hebrew language, and the names “Eberu” and “Eberus” were used by Abraham and the descendants of Eber, Noah’s great, great-grandson. Through incorrect transliteration by some of the Biblical translators, “Abraham the Eberu” became “Abraham the Hebrew” (Gen. 14:13), a name by which some Jews are called even today. But Hebrew is the language of the Jewish people. There is no such thing as a “Hebrew” race or “Hebrew” people.

    As you can see, the words “Yibir” and “Eber” are strikingly similar (linguistically, “Yibir” and “Eber” is a very short step). Do you think there is a connection here between the Yibirs of Somalia and the ancient Ebers of Canaan?
     
  9. Dual Karnayn

    Dual Karnayn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Aqil

    Salaams

    And Shookron for that post brutha.

    I stayed in Minneapolis for a while and met many Somalis.
    I heard of this tribe and how they are persecuted by other tribes for thier alleged witch-craft and other practices and made a connection myself between the name "Yibir" and "Hebrew".

    The exist in Ethiopia and Eritrea also.




    My belief about the Yibir........

    Allah knows best and I'm still learning, but I don't believe that the Yibir of Somalia are native to Canaan. I believe the Yibir/Iboo/"Hebrew" (if you will) people were a CLAN from the patriarch Eber who originated from SUMERIA.


    Remember they were called Hebrews....or "those who crossed over"...by the Canaanites and Assyrians as well as the Egyptians, so obviously they weren't native to either lands.

    But this lines up with what not only the Bible and Koran says of them but also what the ancient Sumerian manuscripts say of them.

    In the Sumerian Book of Enki...Ibrum (Abram) was said to have fled Sumeria with his family from the percecution of Nimrod.



    Now, I sincerely believe that the Canaanites/Phillisine were a light skinned and possibly even "white" people related to the Assyrians who occupied the land of Canaan and both were often subject to the Egyptians.

    But I believe the "Hebrew" or children of Eber were brown skinned Asians of the Sumerian race who broke from thier ancestoral home and migrated West.
    Part of these people founded the nation of Israel.

    Remember, just like not all Israelites are Jews...not all "Hebrews" were Israelites and believed in the One God.


    Some of the "Hebrews" who traveled with Ibrahim stayed pagan and founded thier own societies and cultures through out the Arabian penninsula and even down to Africa.
    That would explain the Iboos of Nigeria and the Yibir of Somalia who up until recently practiced pagan religions while claiming to be of Asiatic origin.
     
  10. Keita Kenyatta

    Keita Kenyatta going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Actually it was Ezra who wrote many of the books. I will elaborate on this further a little later. Since the majority of the books are forgeries with no actual known author, it called for investigation as to who could possibly be the author and why. I will tell you what my investigation turned up. Right now it's dinner time!!!

    Peace
     
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