Black Muslims : Who was the Pharoah of Musa/Moses[as] Time??

Discussion in 'Islam Study Group' started by noor100, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. noor100

    noor100 Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Aug 17, 2010
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    Who was the Pharaoh of Moses (as)?

    Ibn `Abbas and others from among the Salaf have said: "Some of the Children of Israel doubted the death of Fir`awn so Allah commanded the sea to throw his body -- whole, without a soul -- with his known armor plate. The body was thrown to a high place on the land so that the Children of Israel could confirm his death and destruction.''​
    Unfortunately, I cannot answer this with certainty, but in my search I found an interesting debate with the primary argument that Pharaoh as described in the Qur'an was Khufu. The reason for this is based on Khufu's strange burial which included a barge, his unpopular reign and having someone at his service close to the name Haman.

    My favorite assertion, however, is that Firaun was Merenptah / Merneptah. He was arrogant enough, aggressive enough, fit the time period well, had mud-brick buildings, a steele that mentioned the tribe of Israel and a temple to himself that destroyed the original mud-brick to construct.

    Dr. Maurice Bucaille is the primary individual who proposed, based on Islam, that Pharaoh was Merenptah. One of the reasons for his conclusions is that water had been found in his lungs. Unfortunately, however, Bucaille's name is often paired with Ramses II, furthering the unsubstantial and popular claim the Ramses had been Firaun. This is despite the fact that Ramses II was extremely advanced in age upon death, and popular (hence his being "the Great"). Nevermind there being an extreme lack of evidence connecting him to Moses (as). The rumor that is circulating around Muslims that Ramses II's body had been found in the Red Sea is simply NOT TRUE. As for why Merenptah is often not considered to be The Pharaoh, the Catholic Encyclopedia states that the reason why many reject Mereptah as Firaun is because the Israelite steele mentions Palestine, and the idea is that there had been no such land before Moses (as). Allahu 'alam, I can't speak on that subject. One thing I can speak on is that during the time of Mereptah, there was an "usurper" son named Amenmesse, meaning born of Amun (creator deity). He was sometimes referred to as simply Messe, a name very close to "Moses" or "Musa" and any variation thereof for a royal son, one who happened to exist during the ideal time for Moses (as) and who was also considered an imposter, among other things. The only confusing thing about suggesting that Amenmesse was Moses (as) is trying to figure out what Seti II's role was. Could he have been Firaun and not even Merenptah if he was actually at war with Amenmesse? Could it have just been elaborate propaganda to make it like Seti II acquired the throne after a struggle? Was it just an attempt to justify the Set as Apep confusion that existed (Amun vs Set even though Set used to be a protector of Ra). Moses (as) wouldn't have been a pharaoh. Could it have been just an Egyptian way of explaining things that were very confusing? OR was it just that we're looking at the wrong people altogether. While Mereptah is my favorite candidate for Firaun, I doubt anyone will ever truly know. That's not even the point. The point is to accept what's in the Qur'an and to learn from the story, not to find the mummy.

    For off-topic reference: a lot of focus has been on the mud-brick passage in the Qur'an.
    Pharaoh said: "O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace (Arabic: Sarhan, lofty tower or palace), that I may mount up to the god of Moses: but as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!" [Qur'an 28:38]
    As that translation of the Qur'an illustrates, I think there is more to it than a simple understanding of the passage in English, or any language other than the original classical Arabic. Detractors of Islam focus on lofty and favor the translation of tower for their argument, for instance. Is that the best translation based on their understanding of classical Arabic or just the one that makes it look like Islam is farce (astaghfirAllah)?

  2. noor100

    noor100 Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Aug 17, 2010
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    The Pharaoh[By Dr.Maurice Bucaille]
    A third point of comparison, which is extremely significant, is the story of Moses, and especially the Exodus from Egypt of the Hebrews. Here I can only give a highly compressed account of a study on this subject that appears in my book. I have noted the points where the Biblical and Qur’anic narrations agree and disagree, and I have found points where the two texts complement each other in a very useful way.
    Among the many hypotheses, concerning the historical time-frame occupied by the Exodus in the history of the pharaohs, I have concluded that the most likely is the theory which makes Merneptah, Ramesses II’s successor, the pharaoh of the Exodus. The comparison of the data contained in the Scriptures with archeological evidence strongly supports this hypothesis. I am pleased to be able to say that the Biblical narration contributes weighty evidence leading us to situate Moses in the history of the pharaohs. Moses was probably born during the reign of Ramesses II. Biblical data. are therefore of considerable historical value in the story of Moses. A medical study of the mummy of Merneptah has yielded further useful information on the possible causes of this pharaoh’s death. The fact that we possess the mummy of this pharaoh is one of paramount importance. The Bible records that pharaoh was engulfed in the sea, but does not give any details as to what subsequently became of his corpse. The Qur’an, in chapter Yoonus, notes that the body of the pharaoh would be saved from the waters:
    “Today I will save your dead body so that you may be a sign for those who come after you.”
    Qur’an, 10:92
    A medical examination of this mummy, has, shown that the body could not have stayed in the water for long, because it does not show signs of deterioration due to prolonged submersion. Here again, the comparison between the narration in the Qur’an and the data provided by modern knowledge does not give rise to the slightest objection from a scientific point of view.
    Such points of agreement are characteristic of the Qur’anic revelation. But, are we throwing the Judeo-Christian revelation into discredit and depriving it of all its intrinsic value by stressing the faults as seen from a scientific point of view? I think not because the criticism is not aimed at the text as a whole, but only at certain passages. There are parts of the Bible which have an undoubted historical value. I have shown that in my book, The Bible, The Qur’an and Science, where I discuss passages which enable us to locate Moses in time.
    The main causes which brought about such differences as arise from the comparison between the Holy Scriptures and modern knowledge is known to modern scholars. The Old Testament constitutes a collection of literary works produced in the course of roughly nine centuries and which has undergone many alterations. The part played by men in the actual composition of the texts of the Bible is quite considerable.
    The Qur’anic revelation, on the other hand, has a history which is radically different. As we have already seen, from the moment it was first commto humans, it was learnt by heart and written down during Muhammad’s own lifetime. It is thanks to this fact that the Qur’an does not pose any problem of authenticity.
    A totally objective examination of the Qur’an, in the light of modern knowledge, leads us to recognize the agreement between the two, as has already been noted on repeated occasions throughout this presentation.
    It makes us deem it quite unthinkable for a man of Muhammad’s time to have been the author of such statements, on account of the state of knowledge in his day. Such considerations are part of what gives the Qur’anic revelation its unique place among religious and non-religious texts, and forces the impartial scientist to admit his inability to provide an explanation based solely upon materialistic reasoning.
    Such facts as I have had the pleasure of exposing to you here, appear to represent a genuine challenge to human explanation leaving only one alternative: the Qur’an is undoubtedly a revelation from God.
  3. noor100

    noor100 Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Aug 17, 2010
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    Why I Embraced Islam?

    [​IMG]Dr. Maurice Bucaille is a surgeon by profession. He is also a renowned scholar. In order to be able to read Quran in its original text and to study its meaning and purport through direct access to its early and modern commentaries, he devoted himself to the learning of Arabic language at the ripe age of fifty.
    Thereafter, he made a beginning by trying to reconcile proven scientific truths with religious axioms. As a result of these studies, he wrote his famous book "QURAN, BIBLE AND SCIENCE" in 1976, which caused a furor in high academic circles - particularly in the Christian world.
    After a deeper study of Islam and the Quran, he has authored another book titled, "THE ORIGIN OF MAN". It comprised Quranic explanations of some of the queries raised much earlier than the period when those queries were logically and satisfactorily resolved by scientific experimentation, to be fully in conformity with the explanations provided by Quran about 1500 years before. The Church acknowledged and accepted these researches of Dr. Bucaille to be a valuable contribution to human knowledge and the author became famous all over the world, like Cambridge, and Oxford Universities in U.K. & Yale and Harvard in USA. He was invited to give Extension Lectures in their academic institutions. By dint of his Quranic thought, and by virtue of his unprejudiced and realistic approach to Quranic thought, and by virtue of his unprejudiced and realistic discussion and research work, Dr. Bucaille has converted a number of high ranking scholars to agree with him and to subscribe to his view that the Quran is a Divine Book, not authored by any human being and actually a Book of Revelations from Almighty God to His Last Prophet, Mohammed, Peace Be Upon Him.
    M. Bucaille is of the view that his findings in this behalf are a cause of consternation and chagrin to Western scholars because of their earlier exposure to false and fictitious propaganda against Islam and its Prophet (S.A.W.), by the Christian clergy and by biased Western writers and authors. This misguided class of people could not believe that Quran was the only Scripture which had remained sacrosanct and free from all additions, alterations and interpolations and consequently it still retained the purity to guide mankind in all ages, places and in every conceivable crisis.
    For over 1400 years it has been the only treasure house of ecclesiastical and cosmic knowledge about the universe and life itself. Mankind has not yet to progress and proceed to a stage where it can fully be au fait with all the pearls and gems of wisdom and truth, garnered in its bosom by this miracle of literacy, excellence and academic purity which could not be matched even in one small sentence by the literary giants of yore, in spite of an open challenge to this effect.
    Q: What urged you so forcefully to undertake a study of the Quran and other scriptures, and why?

    A: Like all other Frenchmen, I was also initially of the view that Islam was a religion conceived and introduced by a genius and a remarkable man of great intellect, known by the name of Mohammed (S.A.W.). Fifty years ago, by the Grace of God, I became professionally qualified to practice as a surgeon, and used to discuss and compare (views on) Islam and Christianity with my patients who came to consult me (and with my co-professionals). I was told by some of them that my knowledge of Islam and about its discipline was to a great extent misconceived and mistaken. In the beginning I was inclined to doubt them, but now and then some people produced actual and original Quranic Verses in contradiction of my references, and I was compelled to revise my conclusions. And, as a result of this revision and review, I felt that they were right and I was wrong.
    I found that those who had been my teachers had a wrong approach to the problem and had imparted incorrect information to me. My knowledge of Islam, until then, had been restricted to Radio and T.V. reviews, articles published in various magazines and reproduced in biased treatise books. But I was perplexed; what should I do? How should I amend my position and rectify my understanding?
    Q: When did this happen?

    A: After the 8th Vatican Conference but before the birth of a tolerant attitude on the part of European scholars gravitating to unbiased thought, i.e. before 1926, when the cleavage between Muslims and Christian scholars was at its zenith and there was no prospect of a direct dialogue between them.
    Q: How did you react to this situation?

    A: There was only one road open to me then, that of learning Arabic language so that I could study the Holy Book, Quran, in its original form and try to get at its meaning directly. I devoted the next two years to this task when I had acquired enough knowledge of Arabic (in language and literature) to be able to make a dependable study of the Quran faithfully as well as academically.
    Q: And how did this benefit you?

    A: I knew then that the Quran was the "Work of Allah" and had not been authored by any human being. I was also convinced that Mohammed (S.A.W.) was a true Prophet of God.
    Q: The world is now celebrating the first centenary of Darwin, do you subscribe to Darwinian theory or disagree with it?

    A: No Sir, I oppose it vehemently. Darwin's theory is totally based on a misconception and is not at all the outcome of such a scientific research as could prove that there exists the slightest relation between man and the theory of evolution of species as propounded by him. In fact his views are nothing but the misguided and misconceived calculations of a purely materialistic mind. My latest book (Origin of Man) contains a comprehensive "Rebuttal Article" on Darwin and his views.
    Q: Are you of the opinion that Darwin was aware of his error?

    A: Yes, I think he knew the error he committed. The scholars, who are fond of materialism, have propounded innumerable theories, mostly incorrect, and the fun of it is that they are aware of their fallacies. However, being materialist, they stick to their wrong attitude. In my book I have criticized some of these scholars, several of whom are Nobel Prize winners.
    Q: Do you think your writings have had direct repercussion on people outside France?

    A: Yes, Recently, only a few days ago, I visited Northern and Western African countries, where I was repeatedly called upon to address innumerable gatherings of educated persons including scholars, on the Origin of Man and about my first book: the Quran, Bible and Science. I was closely cross- examined about my views by some of the most qualified, even hostile, elements. Following this, countless students and scholars contacted and congratulated me. They declared that after listening to me, they had, for the first time, been able to feel convinced of the truth of the Quranic statements about the creation of universe and origin of man. Some of them frankly admitted that my writings and lectures had restored in them a firm certainty of belief and faith and converted them into True Muslims, who actually felt solace and pleasure now in saying their "prayers". They declared that the element of doubt and dilly-dalliance in faith was entirely due to the misconceived theories of some of these so-called Western scholars whose theories had been adopted as gospel truth.
    Q: What is the verdict of Science on Man; and why this conflict between Science and Religion on this score?

    A: In my book, "Origin of Man", I have endeavored to explain what is dubious and what is proved according to scientific findings. I have also dealt with the theories formerly supported by scholars, but now their very basis is being demolished and proved to be without sound scientific footing. In 1851, Darwin published his first book, "Origin of Species". In it he has pointed out that "All animals can procreate amongst themselves", but he did not take the trouble to demonstrate and prove scientifically his view that the "Genealogy of Man" extends up to monkey.
    Q: Then who is responsible for propounding this frivolous theory?

    A: The fact is that some other people metamorphosing and without statements digesting his theories, assigned wrong statements to Darwin, which comprised the assumption that "Man has evolved from apes". Nevertheless, it is also true that Darwin did not care to contradict such false notions assigned to him as it was in this connection and on this topic that confrontation occurred between the supporters of Darwin and the Clergy, where both the parties roundly abused and maligned each other. That is why it is now essential that a line of demarcation should always be drawn between the results of scientific investigations and arbitrary views of scholars like Darwin.
    Q: By such scientific discourses, debates and discussions even Scriptures, are exposed to scientific test resulting in exposing their errors and pin-pointing their weaknesses. As such, may we inquire if you have some across any such anomalies in the Quran, i.e. where its expositions and explanations are in contrast to scientific findings?

    A: The Scriptures of non-Muslims have been copied and passed on from generation to generation and through different personalities. The oldest document of this nature is "Jehovah", which was written some time during 9th Century A.D. This book, although not voluminous, is still the most comprehensive document of its kind. The second book (Sacrodotal), although generally treated as Preface to the Bible, came to light in 600 B.C. It deals with the creation of universe and the appearance of Man on earth and the stories narrating the events following it. The Bible comes thereafter, but the books of the "New Testament" do not throw much light on the problem of Man. They repeat the statements of the Old Testament as adopted by St. Luke. Quran made its appearance six hundred years after Jesus and furnished valuable material on Man and his creation which was (and still is) totally lacking in the Old as well as the New Testaments and other Scriptures. What is more important is this context is that unlike the Bible's Old and New Testaments, Quran is completely free from errors and interpolations.
    Q: In your opinion, what are the main causes of such plentiful errors in other Scriptures?

    A: The compilers of the Holy Scriptures, in their vanity, presumed to have compiled them on the basis of heavenly revelations. But all their efforts were the echoes of their period resounding the thoughts prevalent in that particular environment. They presented the conception of Man and the phenomenon of his creation as if enunciated by God Himself, though it merely reflected the traditions the rite and the perceptions well known and prevalent at that time. This fact is admitted unanimously by all the exegetes of the Bible, be they Roman Catholics or Protestants.
    Q: Does the church also admit this fact and subscribe to this view?

    A: Yes Sir. The church did accept this truth which was incorporated in the proceedings on the occasion of the second Vatican conference, which was held to declare the "Revolutionary Nature of Old and New Testaments". They admitted that some parts of these Bibles are defective and contradictory in purport.
    Q: What are your views about the Quran in this behalf?

    A: Now this is a matter of entirely a different nature. All scholars of the Quran are unanimous that the Quran is the "Word of God" as revealed to His Last Prophet Mohammed (S.A.W.) through Gabriel (The Angel of Revelation). I have studied the Book (Quran) very carefully and have not come across one single instance of scientific fallacy any where in it. On the contrary, I have felt that the (higher) truths and realities inherent in Quranic Text have been, throughout the history of 1400 years, beyond the comprehension of ordinary human beings which in itself, is positive proof that the Quran is the Word of God and it is (at places) beyond intellectual potential of mortal man; be he an excellent scholar or philosopher of the highest caliber, who is not always able to explain the inherent realities of nature as revealed in the Quran. What obviously conflicts with scientific truth is the assumption of the Bible that although life erupted in the form of various species, which have endured, there has been no evolution or improvement in their functions. On the other hand according to the Quran, Man has transgressed through gigantic changes in the course of the entire history of humanity. I felt it very necessary to inform the Christians of the world of this very serious discrepancy in the Bible. As it happen to be impartial, truthful and very outspoken in my studies, I have been repeatedly called upon from time to time to express my views regarding these matters before distinguished gatherings. On all such occasions, I have always dealt with the subject from the scientific point of view, ignoring the ecclesiastic or theological context. Whatever has appeared to be dubious or fit for further investigation, I have tried to put it on the touchstone of criticism and have not allowed to pass it unchallenged.
    Q: Have you embraced Islam?

    A: I wanted to make it quite clear in the very beginning that even before I learnt the first letter of Bismillah, I was convinced that God was unique and all- powerful and when God guided me to undertake a study of the Quran, my inner soul cried out that Al- Quran was the Word of God revealed to his Last Prophet Mohammed (S.A.W.).
    In my book "Quran, Bible and Science," I have mentioned these facts and the book has met with instant success in the entire Christian world. In this book I have devoted myself to discuss all problems from purely academic angle, rather than that of faith or belief which would have revealed only my personal convictions. This was because I desired to be treated by the world as an academician rather than a theologian. About my faith and belief, God knows what is in one's heart. I am convinced that if I identify myself with any creed, people will invariably dub me as one belonging to such and such group and feel that whatever I say or do, I do so from only the angle of such and such creed group. I know my fellow beings very well and understand their mentality only too well. I wanted to assure them that all my pronouncements are based on scientific knowledge and not on any religious dogmas.
    Q: This is O.K., but since you have referred to God's complete awareness with what is in one's heart, may we ask what is your opinion about human heart?

    A: Heart is not an apparent and perceptible organ of the body. It is the abode of faith and source of eternal light.
    Q: What are your views on Islamic mission and its future in the west?

    A: The best method is to approach the people through in their own language. I am using the world language in its broadest sense, i.e. comprehensive of all the factors which go to make any language complete and expressive of peoples' views and beliefs. The principles and the regulations towards which you are inviting their attention, should be presented in the style with which you are familiar and which is popular among them. In my book "Quran Bible and Science", I have adopted a new style to acquaint the readers with Quranic truths and to understand the intrinsic value of al-Quran. This unprejudiced and impartial viewpoint of mine gave an impetus to the wide circulation in my books. Firstly, I tried to find out the central point of attention of the Christians and the style that appeals to their common sense. Thereafter I achieved this success. After the publication of these books I received a number of letters from great academicians and research scholars as well as commoners in which they expressed their interest in my study of Al-Quran and appreciated it. They felt satisfied with my views about the Bible and confirmed the fallacies pointed out by me. I once entertained some Christians at home, in which they expressed their astonishment over the literature I produced regarding Islam and inquired the names of exegesis to acquire correct information about it.
    Q: What are your activities now?

    A: We are now trying to produce a film on "Science, the Quran and the Origin of Man" as a matter of fact I have deep friendly relations with Malaysia. The provincial branch of "Dawa-Islamia" has passed a resolution to produce a film on the Quran and the director of the producing company visited Paris to prepare a plan for it. This film is to be in Technicolor. The duration of its presentation is fifty-five minutes being devoted to the Quran and the history of the facts related to it, the verses of the Quran are depicted in this film. Thus it is of great importance. Six hundred thousand dollars have been collected to produce this film. The preparation of this film has already been started. To begin with it will be produced in five languages, and then it will be extended up to ten. The first print will be in English, then Arabic and French, and thereafter in other languages. It will be circulated throughout the world.
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