Chief Elder Osiris : Whites Ask Zimbabwe For Permission For Farm

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  1. Chief Elder Osiris

    Chief Elder Osiris Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    e for permission to farm




    Hoteph Beloved Sisters and Brothers:

    Lil Joe, Lil Joe, I love the way you speak your reasoning with such conviction and how you do not just react to things, using what information that has been given by somebody else, without applying your own power of reasoning to them and not without examination, using others opinion on the topic under discussion, as a premise to form your own decision about the matter under discussion.

    This is not to be taken as a negative reaction to brother Ayitty, this is about the Truth of the Matter and in this case, the matter is Land value period, and it is that fact alone that I agree with Lil Joe assertion concerning Land value, and yes it is because it is in keeping with my own thoughts and knowledge concerning Land value and Use.

    My position, when it come to Land, is that all Land is valuable, meaning there is none that is useless or worthless, even the Sahara has its usefulness, so I guess what we are talking about here, is the worthlessness of Man ability to interact with the Land in such a way Man can get the Land to yield to Man desire concerning the action being put forth to benefit from the effort put forth to the Land.

    For instance, the Land call Zimbabwe is useful Land, it is the people that have been made unqualified to interact with that Land in such a way it will yield benefits to the people and it is all because there are forces that are in opposition to having the people of Zimbabwe to be qualified to interact with the Land in such a way the Land will produce and or sustain whatever use the people require of its service, the Land that is.

    Lil Joe approached this issue from his perspective, I do so from mine and yet the two do not contradict because Truth does not contradict itself.

    The problem Zimbabwe is having is not a Land Problem, it is a political problem made to become a social, educational, nutritional, Health, and economic problem, all because Afrikan People are not a United People, and all out side forces are able to bring confusion among Afrikan people when it come to Zimbabwe.

    Zimbabwe problem is not a Land problem, it is a created problem by forces that dislike the politics of Zimbabwe President and we Black Folks without Thinking allow ourselves to develop an attitude and behavior toward President Mugabe and Zimbabwe, based upon the maneuvering propaganda of the enemy outside of Zimbabwe and those they have cultivated inside Zimbabwe, thus splitting the People of Zimbabwe and Afrikan people in general, and the people of Zimbabwe suffer from the worthless use of our own mind, as we develop an attitude and behavior toward Zimbabwe based upon the action / inaction of the evil forces outside of Zimbabwe, all because they do not approve of President Mugabe politics and action he takes in Zimbabwe.

    Land is never worthless, it is the Land users that become useless / worthless in relationship to the Land and there are many factors that can and does contribute to such inability to interact with the Land in a productive way, tell me, who else must Whites ask in Zimbabwe in order to use that Land in Zimbabwe ?

    Here Is Loving you

    Hoteph
    Osiris
    Chief Elder
    FWIOAM / SRM



    Lil Joe <[email protected]> wrote:


    >From: George Ayittey <[email protected]>

    >Oba,
    >
    >This is NOT funny.
    >
    >If land is "worthless" then it is of no value or use to the owner,
    >whether white or black.

    Lil Joe Response:
    Georgie boy, your ignorance of economic theory is showing.
    Your understanding of the economic labor theory of value is upside
    down. When Eddie Cross and Pat Anderson wrote of the
    value of land in Zimbabwe they were writing of the cost price,
    economic exchange value rather than its use value. The
    use value of land is determined by its properties, whether
    it is used in agriculture or to build production units, or for
    housing, is determined by economic relations based on
    the material use value, but its exchange value, whether
    being bought and sold, or rented to peasants for living by
    farming, or ground rent to capitalists for industry placing,
    or to public authority, or city blocks for apartments &/or
    houses refers to exchange value, though based on potential
    use, are prices determined by economic factors including
    supply and demand.

    Thus, it is in the latter case of exchange value that it was
    asserted that the land expropriated by Zimbabwean
    peasants is "worthless" - has no exchange value or is
    the value of zero. This was not an assertion concerning
    whether or not its use value is "worthless", because it
    has the same use potential under ownership of peasants,
    or the State, as it had in the possession of White settler
    capitalists in agribusinesses.

    >
    >If the local currency (Zim dollar) is "worthless" then it is of no value
    >or use to the owner, whether black or white. Get it?
    >

    Lil Joe Response:
    George, not only are you ignorant of the more sophisticated
    features of economic labor, value and price theory, but
    also in addition to being wrong; but, you are at the same
    time in contrast to the assertions made by Eddie Cross -
    and also in this case James as well, who said that that the
    price of labor power is cheap (James) or not so cheap (Eddie).
    In other words, Zimbabwe currency, inflation notwithstanding,
    has the authority given use value of being authorized
    exchange values. Money is a medium of exchange as legal
    tender.

    Paper currency is not the cost-price value of the paper. No,
    whether Yen, Rand, Marks, Pounds, Dollars or Zimbabwe paper
    currency, paper currency represent the value of money -
    gold, silver, &t. in relation to other commodities. Zimbabwe's
    currency is used to buy and sell labor power, it represents
    exchange value proper, and in Zimbabwe it is not "worthless".

    >You still need to be "educated."
    >
    >George Ayittey,
    >Washington, DC
    >
    Lil Joe Comment:
    You are the one who is in need of education, Ayittey; especially
    in economic theory.
    >
    >
    >Oba PaAb wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> "Land is now worthless and a liability."(Eddie Cross)
    >>
    >> LOL! George my brother what say you? This must be a quote of the day!
    >>
    >> Land is now worthless and liability in Zimbabwe, gosh!
    >>
    >> What can one say. Only when whites own land, it is worthy and an
    >> asset!
    >>
    >> Oba.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> ----------------------------------------------------------
    >>

    >> Dear Pat
    >>
    >> Thank you for your confidence. In fact I do not think that
    >> land or labour
    >> are cheap by world standards in Zimbabwe. Both were
    >> basically market driven
    >> although before the collapse of agriculture minimum wages
    >> were negotiated
    >> annually be Unions and Employers. This system has now
    >> largely collapsed and
    >> many of the new farmers are not paying minimum wages.
    >>
    >> Land is a free good now of course - you do not have to pay
    >> for it, you just
    >> join Zanu PF or become an associate of a Zanu PF chef and
    >> then look for the
    >> piece of land you want to aquire - the rest is easy. Before
    >> the invasions
    >> the market for land was actually quite boyant. Land is now
    >> worthless and a
    >> liability.
    >>
    >> Eddie Cross
    >>
    >>On Behalf Of paanderson2003

    >>
    >>
    >> In fact being a Zimbabwean makes both James and Eddie Cross
    >> best
    >> qualified to speak about farming and business in Zimbabwe,
    >> despite
    >> what you say I still prefer to hear what they say on the
    >> subject.
    >> Eddie actually works in agriculture and lives in Bulawayo, I
    >> trust
    >> his judgement.
    >> Again, I refute your your suggestion that I use racist
    >> babble, why
    >> not discuss the subject instead?
    >> James told us that the land is cheap and labour is
    >> relatively cheap,
    >> that may be a fact.
    >> Pat.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> -- In [email protected], Lil Joe <joe_radical@...>
    >> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > So, Pat Anderson in Britain is best qualified to select
    >> who speaks
    >> > for Africa? Having lived in Zimbabwe doesn't make one an
    >> all
    >> > knowing expert on the conditions of Zimbabwe, any more
    >> than
    >> > Pat living in Britain makes her an expert on Britain, or
    >> for
    >> > that matter I am no omniscient expert on America just
    >> because
    >> > I live here. James is speaking on behalf of British and
    >> American
    >> > imperialism by advising that the wages of labor being
    >> cheap
    >> > can rake in high rates of profits. I will oppose my
    >> "Marxist jargon"
    >> > against Pats racist babble every time.
    >> >
    >> > Lil Joe
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > >From: paanderson2003 <paanderson2003@...>
    >> > >Sent: Oct 19, 2006 3:29 AM
    >> > >
    >> > >Subject: [Mwananchi] Re: Whites ask Zimbabwe for
    >> permission to farm
    >> > >
    >> > >All this marxist jargon is masking what James actually
    >> said! As I
    >> > >have said on many occasions James is from Zimbabwe so is
    >> best
    >> placed
    >> > >to inform us what he feels is happening in Zimbabwe and
    >> the facts
    >> of
    >> > >farming on a large scale. Nobody is saying black Africans
    >> can`t
    >> farm,
    >> > >of course they can, we are talking here of large scale
    >> commercial
    >> > >farming which has been carried out for many years by
    >> white
    >> Africans
    >> > >ably assisted by black Zimbabweans, thus they have the
    >> experience
    >> of
    >> > >managing such large areas. Since those farms were seized,
    >> given in
    >> > >the main to Mugabe`s cronies and thus lying fallow by all
    >>
    >> accounts,
    >> > >farming as it was has ceased, as an example I haven`t
    >> seen a
    >> green
    >> > >bean, a mange tout or a sugarsnap pea from Zimbabwe for a
    >> very
    >> long
    >> > >time where before they were a common sight here in
    >> Britain. If and
    >> > >when the white Africans do resume large scale farming we
    >> will then
    >> > >see whether in fact the country`s economy has been
    >> affected by
    >> these
    >> > >seizures.
    >> > >Eddie may wish to contribute as he is an agricultural man
    >> from
    >> > >Bulawayo, again he is on the ground (no pun intended) and
    >> is well
    >> > >qualified to comment on whether what I`ve said is true,
    >> as is
    >> James
    >> > >of course.
    >> > >Patricia
    >> > >
    >> > >
    >> > >
    >> > >
    >> > > Lil Joe <joe_radical@>
    >> wrote:
    >> > >>
    >> > >> Thank you, James!
    >> > >> ----------------------
    >> > >>
    >> > >> Here, James Chikonamombe has demonstrated in no
    >> > >> uncertain terms that Black racialism, even when it is
    >> > >> masked as "pan-Africanism", can be used by "Black",
    >> > >> and "African" representatives of the class of
    >> capitalists
    >> > >> as a sham of husksters to hood wink Black wageworkers,
    >> > >> proletarians.
    >> > >>
    >> > >> As James shows, inadvertently in his Response to Pat,
    >> > >> the capitalist class and their ideological lackeys,
    >> have
    >> > >> singular common class interests: to purchase cheaply,
    >> > >> and sell dearly. What this means is to reduce wages
    >> > >> to lowest possible prices of labor power, to starvation
    >>
    >> > >> wages when possible, and in this case cheap land. This
    >> > >> is the issue, notwithstanding Pat and James efforts of
    >> > >> presenting it as an issue of "race" and "competence".
    >> > >>
    >> > >> Pat and Chifu's post present competency as a racial
    >> > >> characteristic, in which "White" so-called "farmers"
    >> are
    >> > >> generically, inherently competent, and "Blacks"
    >> conversely
    >> > >> incompetent, thus the solution to the economic woes
    >> > >> in Zimbabwe's agricultural crisis is intimated to be
    >> the
    >> > >> consequence of Blacks expropriating of the land from
    >> > >> Whites is resolved when White "farmers" are given
    >> > >> this land, African peasants reduced to propertyless
    >> > >> proletarians selling their labor power to these
    >> "farmers".
    >> > >>
    >> > >> When proletarians sell off their labor power, and labor
    >>
    >> > >> under the threat of being fired if not productive, is
    >> what
    >> > >> we Marxist describe as wage slavery. Pat is so happy,
    >> for
    >> > >> the "White farmers" that they be given African land,
    >> and
    >> > >> African peasants reduced to wage slaves, but state her
    >> > >> class based euphoria as though she is happy for the
    >> > >> slaves getting "their jobs back", as if African
    >> wageworkers
    >> > >> are being did a favor by being hired, and exploited in
    >> the
    >> > >> interest of capital accumulation.
    >> > >>
    >> > >> James the Just is more open and honest than his
    >> Mistress
    >> > >> Pat Anderson, and does not present these "White
    >> farmers"
    >> > >> as altruistic as Pat does, but as capitalists with whom
    >> he
    >> > >> has common class interests. I doubt that Pat or James
    >> > >> want to go to Zimbabwe and work for such wages 10 hrs
    >> > >> a day every day, consequently living in poverty.
    >> > >>
    >> > >> Lil Joe
    >> > >>
    >> > >> -----Original Message-----
    >> > >> >From: James Chikonamombe <zichivhu@>
    >> > >> >Sent: Oct 17, 2006 12:27 PM
    >> > >> >To: [email protected]
    >> > >> >Subject: Re: [Mwananchi] Re: Whites ask Zimbabwe for
    >> permission
    >> to
    >> > >farm
    >> > >> >
    >> > >> >I've already mentioned it before: commercial farming
    >> > >> >in Zimbabwe is a great business proposition especially
    >>
    >> > >> >given the cheapness of land per acre and the
    >> > >> >relatively cheap cost of labour.
    >> > >> >
    >> > >> >If you compare these two factors with other farming
    >> > >> >regions of the world, say Australia or the US, it
    >> > >> >becomes obvious that(given the choice)Zimbabwe's
    >> > >> >white, commercial farmers were always going to return
    >> > >> >to farming in Zimbabwe.
    >> > >> >
    >> > >> >James Chikonamombe
    >> > >> >
    >> > >> >--- paanderson2003 <paanderson2003@> wrote:
    >> > >> >
    >> > >> >> Chifu,
    >> > >> >> let`s hope they do come back and get crops planted
    >> > >> >> to ensure the
    >> > >> >> people are fed, also to give the jobs back to all
    >> > >> >> the Zimbabweans who
    >> > >> >> lost them plus their homes, schools and medical
    >> > >> >> clinics.
    >> > >> >> Pat
    >> > >> >>
    >> > >> >> --- In [email protected], "Chifu"
    >> > >> >> <chifu2222@> wrote:
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > Whites ask Zimbabwe for permission to farm
    >> > >> >> > Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:48 AM GMT
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > EAST LONDON, South Africa (Reuters) - Zimbabwe,
    >> > >> >> facing food
    >> > >> >> > shortages blamed partly on its large-scale
    >> > >> >> seizures of white-owned
    >> > >> >> > farms, is considering allowing some interested
    >> > >> >> whites to return to
    >> > >> >> > farming, a minister said.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > President Robert Mugabe's government has received
    >> > >> >> over 200
    >> > >> >> > applications from whites to take up farming again,
    >>
    >> > >> >> land minister
    >> > >> >> > Flora Buka said on Saturday during an agriculture
    >> > >> >> conference in
    >> > >> >> > South Africa.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > "As regards white commercial farmers, there are
    >> > >> >> some who have
    >> > >> >> > indicated that they would want to continue
    >> > >> >> farming," Buka told
    >> > >> >> > Reuters.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > "Their applications are being considered. If they
    >> > >> >> are willing to
    >> > >> >> > stay, that is also going to be considered. Also,
    >> > >> >> the amount of land
    >> > >> >> > they have is also going to be considered."
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > Asked if the government was still confiscating
    >> > >> >> land from whites to
    >> > >> >> > redistribute to blacks, Buka said: "Yes, we are
    >> > >> >> still resettling
    >> > >> >> our
    >> > >> >> > people on the land that is state land."
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > Many of Zimbabwe's white farmers have gone
    >> > >> >> overseas or to other
    >> > >> >> > African countries after often violent land grabs
    >> > >> >> backed by Mugabe,
    >> > >> >> > who initiated the redistribution programme six
    >> > >> >> years ago.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > Industry analysts say only about 600 of Zimbabwe's
    >>
    >> > >> >> 4,500 white
    >> > >> >> > farmers have kept their land.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > Zimbabwe was once the breadbasket of the region
    >> > >> >> and a net exporter
    >> > >> >> > of maize and other essential cereals to its
    >> > >> >> neighbours.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > But food agencies say the departure of experienced
    >>
    >> > >> >> white commercial
    >> > >> >> > farmers has cut into agricultural output and
    >> > >> >> exposed Zimbabweans to
    >> > >> >> > persistent food shortages. Meanwhile, a severe
    >> > >> >> economic crisis has
    >> > >> >> > led to a shortage of foreign currency and surging
    >> > >> >> inflation of more
    >> > >> >> > than 1,000 percent annually.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > The U.N. World Food Programme said last week 1.4
    >> > >> >> million
    >> > >> >> Zimbabweans
    >> > >> >> > will need food aid in the next six months despite
    >> > >> >> improved
    >> > >> >> > agricultural output last season.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > Mugabe's government has forecast production of 1.8
    >>
    >> > >> >> million tonnes
    >> > >> >> of
    >> > >> >> > the staple maize, but food agencies, while
    >> > >> >> acknowledging output has
    >> > >> >> > improved, predict a lower crop.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > The WFP said 10 percent of the country's estimated
    >>
    >> > >> >> 12 million
    >> > >> >> people
    >> > >> >> > would need aid before next April.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > Mugabe's government has defended its land
    >> > >> >> programme as necessary to
    >> > >> >> > reverse injustices of British colonial rule.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > As in other African countries, many blacks in
    >> > >> >> Zimbabwe were
    >> > >> >> forcibly
    >> > >> >> > removed from their land under colonialism, leaving
    >>
    >> > >> >> white minorities
    >> > >> >> > holding most of the arable land.
    >> > >> >> >
    >> > >> >> > http://za.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?
    >>
    >> > >> >> > type=topNews&storyID=2006-10-
    >> > >> >> 15T084814Z_01_BAN531675_RTRIDST_0_OZATP-
     
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