Black Spirituality Religion : Was Abram/Abraham a great man of faith?

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by Radical Faith, May 30, 2006.

  1. Radical Faith

    Radical Faith Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Genesis 12
    1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

    2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

    3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

    5And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

    6And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

    7And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

    8And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

    9And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.

    10And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.

    11And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:

    12Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.

    13Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

    14And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.

    15The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.

    16And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he *****, and menservants, and maidservants, and she *****, and camels.

    17And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

    18And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

    19Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.

    20And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.


    We see Abram when first commanded by God to leave his Fathers house and land he is very faithful but when he reaches the place where God told him to he runs into adversity. So instead of holding on and being faithful to God's promise he attempts to make a way on his own by going to Egypt..Then we see he prostituted his wife so that his life could be spared because of her beauty. Does this chapter of Genesis focus on how at the first sign of hardship Abram looses faith in God and tries to fix things on his own? Please share your thoughts...
     
  2. river

    river Watch Her Flow MEMBER

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    Brotha Rad,

    This could make an interesting study. A lot of people might dismiss this as not being historical and as Brotha Keita showed us even Paul says it is symbolic. Yet as a symbol what does it say to us?

    When you think about it Abram's disobedience did not begin when he went to Eggypt. It began when God told him to leave his kindred and instead of doing so he took Lot and every thing else with him.

    That speaks to us when we are called by life and age to leave the comforts of our parent's home or later when knowledge and wisdom calls us to leave the comforts of what we have known all our lives to seek out unknown territory. We often try to cling to what is familiar, hold onto the old wine skins so to speak. Like Abram our blessings and purpose may not begin until we let Lot go his way.

    As a lesson in obedience I'm not sure how useful this is since God does not speak to us in an audible voice and the world is full of people who swear that it was God who told them to pull some cacamanie (sp) idea. We get pulled in so many different directions because everybody thinks what they want us to do is what God wants us to do. And I ask if that's what God wants me to do why didn't he tell me.

    But I think this story will be more useful as it applies to our spiritual growth and battle against fear. Abram's fear heightened before there was even any threat. When our minds are occupied with what might happen or what people might do to us then we can't hear from our inner spirit to do what we know is right.
     
  3. dustyelbow

    dustyelbow Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Abraham did not prostitute his wife. They both came to an agreement on how to approach this matter. So both their lives were spared. Abraham revealed his TRUE INTENTIONS to his wife.

    Stories of real prostitution have somebody knowing what is going on while somebody else just follows along TRUSTING the SUGGESTION of the somebody knowing what is going on who does not reveal their TRUE INTENTIONS. The promise there is a life of UNTRUSTWORTHYNESS .

    Abraham and Sarah are ONE flesh. So they fulfilled not only their spiritual promise but maintain their fleshly commitments to one another.

    Perhaps that is why God plagued Pharoah and his house and NOT Abram and Sarah.

    Actually it reveal a more deeper meaning of faith that Abram and Sarah had. TRUST in one another to a commitment or covenant. Faith is TRUST in God.
     
  4. river

    river Watch Her Flow MEMBER

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    I don't know, Dusty. For one thing a prostitute knows what she is doing. And Sarah knew what those men would do to her if she went to them. Abram and Sarah made the deal because Abram was scared. How are you going to make a decision based on fear and then say you were trusting God?That's not faith. Can I shoot a gun at someone trusting that if it is God's will he will stop the bullet? We talk all around these stories but we never put them in the context of reality.

    The god of the bible punishes peple for weird reasons. Abram lied to the Pharoah--did a classic Bill Clinton--that she was his sister was legally accurate. Seems this god doesn't care what you do. You can lie as Abram did and he will punish the people you lied to, reduce a country of freemen to a country of sharecroppers as Joseph did, get drunk as Noah did, murder as David did, rape women as Moses said they could do, and as long as you have faith and trust him he's okay with it.

    Why do we go through such morall convolutions to justify this book which was written by men? Men whom our ancestors called "people of an ignoble birth?"
     
  5. GrandHustle

    GrandHustle Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    ABRAHAM

    (A'bra·ham) Father of a Crowd (Multitude).

    The name given by God to Abram (meaning "Father Is High (Exalted)") when he was 99 years old, and when God was reaffirming His promise that Abraham's offspring would become many.-Ge 17:5.

    Family Origin and Early History.

    Abraham was the tenth generation from Noah through Shem and was born 352 years after the Deluge, in 2018 B.C.E. Although listed first among the three sons of Terah, at Genesis 11:26, Abraham was not the firstborn. The Scriptures show that Terah was 70 years old when his first son was born, and that Abraham was born 60 years later when his father Terah was 130 years old. (Ge 11:32; 12:4) Evidently Abraham is listed first among his father's sons because of his outstanding faithfulness and prominence in the Scriptures, a practice that is followed in the case of several other outstanding men of faith such as Shem and Isaac.-Ge 5:32; 11:10; 1Ch 1:28.

    Abrahm A Man of Faith?

    In Abraham's time, the city of Ur was steeped in Babylonish idolatry and the worship of its patron moon-god Sin. (Jos 24:2, 14, 15) Nevertheless, Abraham proved to be a man of faith in God, (Ro 4:11)

    While Abraham was still living in Ur, "before he took up residence in Haran, God commanded him to move out to a strange land, leaving behind friends and relatives. (Ac 7:2-4; Ge 15:7; Ne 9:7) There in that country that He would show Abraham, God said he would make out of him a great nation. At the time, Abraham was married to his half sister Sarah. Both were old at the time. From my limited life experince older people tend to want to be more settled. Seems to me that a move at this age would require more than a notion. Abraham and Sarah moved.



    Terah, now around 200 years old and still the family's patriarchal head, agreed to accompany Abraham and Sarah on this long journey, and it is for this reason that Terah as father is credited with making the move toward Canaan. (Ge 11:31) It appears that fatherless Lot, Abraham's nephew, was adopted by his childless uncle and aunt and so accompanied them. Northwestward the caravan moved, some 600 miles, until they reached Haran, Here Abraham remained until the death of his father Terah. At 75 years old, Abraham began to move his household out of Haran to the land of Canaan.

    Abraham not only built an altar to God there but, as he moved southward through the land, he built other altars along the way (Ge 12:8, 9) In time a severe famine compelled Abraham to move temporarily to Egypt, and to protect his life, he represented Sarah as his sister. (Sarah was his wife and his half-sister) This resulted in Pharaoh's taking beautiful Sarah into his household with intentions of having her becomee his wife, but before he could violate her, God had Pharaoh give her back. Abraham then returned to Canaan to the campsite between Bethel and Ai "-Ge 12:10-13:4.

    It now became necessary, because of the increasing size of their flocks and herds, for Abraham and Lot to separate. Lot selected the basin of the lower Jordan, a well-watered region and later established his camp near Sodom. (Ge 13:5-13) Abraham, for his part, after being told to travel about through the length and breadth of the land, came to dwell among the big trees of Mamre in Hebron, -Ge 13:14-18.

    When four allied kings, headed by the Elamite king Chedorlaomer, were successful in crushing a revolt of five Canaanite kings, Sodom and Gomorrah were sacked, and Lot was taken captive together with all of his property. Abraham, upon learning of this, quickly mustered 318 of his trained household servants. With his confederates Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre, he made a forced march in hot pursuit perhaps as much as 190 miles northward to beyond Damascus and, with God's help, defeated a far superior force. Lot was thus rescued, and the stolen property was recovered. (Ge 14:1-16, 23, 24) As Abraham was returning from this great victory a "priest of the Most High God," Melchizedek, who was also the king of Salem, came out and blessed him, and Abraham, in turn, "gave him a tenth of everything."-Ge 14:17-20.


    Time passed. They had now been in Canaan for about ten years, yet Sarah continued barren. She therefore proposed to substitute her Egyptian maidservant Hagar so that she might have a child by her. Abraham consented. And so in 1932 B.C.E., when Abraham was 86 years old, Ishmael was born. (Ge 16:3, 15, 16) More time passed. In 1919 B.C.E., when Abraham was 99 years old, as a sign or seal to testify to the special covenant relationship existing between himself and Abraham, God commanded that all the males of Abraham's household be circumcised. At the same time God changed his name from Abram to Abraham, "because a father of a crowd of nations I will make you." (Ge 17:5, 9-27; Ro 4:11) Soon after, three materialized angels, whom Abraham received hospitably promised that Sarah herself would conceive and give birth to a son, yes, within the coming year!-Ge 18:1-15.

    In the same year Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Abraham's nephew and his two daughters barely escaped. A famine drove Abraham and his wife to Gerar, only to have the king of that Philistine city take Sarah for his harem. God intervened; Sarah was released; and at the appointed time, 1918 B.C.E., Isaac, the long-promised heir, was born when Abraham was 100 years old and Sarah was 90. (Ge 18:16-21:7) Five years later, when Isaac's 19-year-old half brother Ishmael poked fun at him, Abraham was compelled to dismiss Ishmael and his mother Hagar. It was then, in 1913 B.C.E., that the 400 years of affliction upon Abraham's offspring began.-Ge 21:8-21; 15:13; Ga 4:29.

    The supreme test of Abraham's faith came about 20 years later. According to Jewish tradition, Isaac was now 25 years old. (Jewish Antiquities, by F. Josephus, I, 227 [xiii, 2]) In obedience to God's instructions Abraham took Isaac and traveled N from Beer-sheba at the Negeb to Mount Moriah, situated directly N of Salem. There he built an altar and prepared to offer up Isaac, the promised seed, as a burnt sacrifice. And indeed Abraham "as good as offered up Isaac," Only at the last moment did God intervene and provide a ram as a substitute for Isaac on the sacrificial altar. It was, therefore, this implicit faith backed up by complete obedience that moved God to reinforce his covenant with Abraham with a sworn oath, a special legal guarantee.-Ge 22:1-18; Heb 6:13-18; 11:17-19.

    When Sarah died at Hebron in 1881 B.C.E. at the age of 127, it was necessary for Abraham to purchase a burial plot, for indeed he was only an alien resident owning no land in Canaan. So he bought a field with its cave at Machpelah near Mamre from the sons of Heth. (Ge 23:1-20; see PURCHASE.) Three years later, when Isaac reached the age of 40, Abraham sent his oldest servant back to Mesopotamia in order to find a suitable wife.

    Abraham again took a wife," Keturah, and thereafter fathered six additional sons, so that from Abraham sprang not only the Israelites, Ishmaelites, and Edomites but also Medanites, Midianites, and others. (Ge 25:1, 2; 1Ch 1:28, 32, 34) Thus it was that God's prophetic utterance was fulfilled in Abraham: "A father of a crowd of nations I will make you." (Ge 17:5) Finally, at the good old age of 175, Abraham died, in 1843 B.C.E., and was buried by his sons Isaac and Ishmael in the cave of Machpelah. (Ge 25:7-10) Prior to his death Abraham gave gifts to the sons of his secondary wives and sent them away, so that Isaac would be the sole heir of "everything he had."-Ge 25:5, 6.

    Patriarchal Head and Prophet. Abraham was a very wealthy man with great flocks and herds, much silver and gold, and a very large household numbering many hundreds of servants. (Ge 12:5, 16; 13:2, 6, 7; 17:23, 27; 20:14; 24:35) For this reason the kings of Canaan considered him a powerful "chieftain" and one with whom covenants of peace should be made. (Ge 23:6; 14:13; 21:22, 23) Yet at no time did Abraham allow materialism to blind his vision of God and His promises or cause him to become proud, high-minded, or selfish.-Ge 13:9; 14:21-23.

    The first occurrence of the word "prophet" in the Hebrew Scriptures refers to Abraham, though others like Enoch prophesied before him. (Ge 20:7; Jude 14) The first identified in the Scriptures as a "Hebrew" is Abraham. (Ge 14:13) Abraham, like Abel, Enoch, and Noah, was a man of faith. (Heb 11:4-9) But the first occurrence of the expression "put faith in God" is in reference to Abraham.-Ge 15:6.

    Indeed, this was a man of unusual faith.

    As patriarchal head, Abraham allowed no idolatry or ungodliness in his household but constantly taught all his sons and servants to keep God's way to do righteousness and judgment. (Ge 18:19) Every male member of Abraham's household was bound by God's law to submit to circumcision. The Egyptian slave girl Hagar called on God's name in prayer. And Abraham's oldest servant in a very heart-touching prayer to God demonstrated his own faith in Abraham's God. Isaac too, in his early manhood, proved his faith and his obedience to God by allowing himself to be bound hand and foot and placed atop the altar for sacrifice.-Ge 17:10-14, 23-27; 16:13; 24:2-56.

    Historicity. Jesus and his disciples referred to Abraham more than 70 times in their conversations and writings. In his illustration of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus referred to Abraham in a symbolic sense. (Lu 16:19-31) When his opponents boasted that they were the offspring of Abraham, Jesus was quick to point out their hypocrisy, saying: "If you are Abraham's children, do the works of Abraham." (Joh 8:31-58; Mt 3:9, 10) No, as the apostle Paul said, it is not fleshly descent that counts, but, rather, faith like that of Abraham that enables one to be declared righteous. (Ro 9:6-8; 4:1-12) Paul also identified the true seed of Abraham as Christ, along with those who belong to Christ as "heirs with reference to a promise." (Ga 3:16, 29) He also speaks of Abraham's kindness and hospitality to strangers, and in his long list in Hebrews chapter 11. Paul does not overlook Abraham. It is Paul who points out that Abraham's two women, Sarah and Hagar, figured in a symbolic drama that involved God's two covenants. (Ga 4:22-31; Heb 11:8) The Bible writer James adds that Abraham backed up his faith by righteous works and, therefore, was known as "God's friend."-Jas 2:21-23. (very few have been bestowed with this title)

    Was Abraham a great man of faith? Indeed.
     
  6. dustyelbow

    dustyelbow Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I am just looking for meaning that it.

    Here we go.

    Would a prostitute work for a promise not realized not understood just trusting that there is a being that will REWARD her based on WORDS from the heart? A promise?

    Faith is TRUST in your GOD your Creator.

    My answer is NO. A prostitute has it planned and understands that she will get PAID in some format for INSTANT GRATIFICATION after commiting the act not some promise to PAY years or decades later.

    Why do we throw out this statement alot...

    God works in mysterious ways His wonders to perform.

    Should we trust our own UNDERSTANDING?

    For me NO, I dont always and I am trying hard to do this everyday to EXPAND my understanding of my creator. Sometimes I fail but I have received more information this way.

    Sarah believe in Abraham and the promise her creator made.

    Who authority should Abram trust?

    His Creator or that of Pharoah?

    He was testing the the ways of both. Why DECIDE to go with his creator who he does not have a UNDERSTANDING of? But based on these verses he knew of Egypt and the mind of man since he is a MAN.

    Do you trust your Creator or some person who has a track record of DESTRUCTION but everyone can count on them for their NEEDS. Do you see your Creator equal to Pharoah a man of destruction fulfilling the needs of those who do abomidible works that you would not do yourself. Is your creator much greater than any man known.

    That is how much Abram put into the faith. He trusted God.

    For me, Abram did not exercise fear he exercise DISCERNMENT.

    He knew Pharoah trusted his own authority and power.

    This is another time to exercise DISCERNMENT which comes with FAITH.

    Pharoah lack DISCERNMENT. He trusted his own understanding and desires.

    Look what happened.

    Pharoah and his house were plagued, not Abram and Sarah.

    Trust no man it says in the Bible.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    All these people paid the price down their generational line.

    Moses did not get to see the promise land.

    Oh well.

    But the commandment the covenant he established with his creator still reign over Jerusulam and Israel. To what degree still debatable but it has been established on earth. So the promise remained until one completes it.

    During that time many wicked acts occur by and against the children of Israel to bring this promise to fruition.

    David generational line descendants commited atrocity against a wide range of people countryman and neighbors in Kings.

    Oh well.

    Still Jesus came out of the line somehow. The promise still remain between David's creator and himself. That covenant David established on earth grew in those times of turmoil.
    ------------------------------------------

    Joseph was spoken well but his children got use to the 'good' life in Egypt off of Joseph's work which ended with his life and not use their own or develop their own with their creator so Egyptians said ENOUGH and PLACED them under extreme bondage and it took an act of God, NOT THEIR OWN FREEWILL to leave Egypt under Moses. They became STUBBORN. We keep hearing God say they a STIFFNECK people.

    :D :D :D :D

    Oh well.

    But a good lesson. Work with your own hands. Dont get too comfortable with your ENVIRONMENT even if you are getting MAXIMUM PLEASURE and COMFORT OUT of IT. Because you will soon find out or your DESCENDANTS will find out that THINGS will CHANGE eventually and if your NOT PREPARED to move on you will DIE. No more future generations. You SEED will disappear from the EARTH and/or will CURSE their ANCESTORS (US) for not doing anything about the CURSETH situation your DESCENDANTS find themselves in.

    All because we trusted in OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. We became STIFFNECK.

    And we know how much God the Supreme Being loves STIFFNECK people.

    Oh well.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Bible has plenty of lessons to learn but since I have some experience, my own WEAR and TEAR, these stories have better meaning for me.

    If I read the Bible without my WEAR and TEAR, it means absolute nothing, it would just be another book to gather dust.

    That is why I beleive our ancestors just use the Bible to confirm what they already believed through their own WEAR and TEAR experience.
     
  7. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    To understand the true meaning of this you have to project yourself into the time zone. Abraham was not a commoner as the doctrine plays out. Sheepherders and keepers of cattle in those days were most likely uneducated and being nomadic could not have established a religious theology and doctrine that has lasted for more than time could tell. In order to establish a religion as such one would have to have a foundation, base and established civilization, a place of operation and doctrinal study.

    Some of the clues to this effect:

    Gen:12:16: And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he *****, and menservants, and maidservants, and she *****, and camels.

    The domesticated camel did not appear in Egypt until just before or around the Romans. I have yet to see images of camels in the Egyptian antiquities. What this tells us is Abraham and his story is a characterization of a historical event that occurred between a Pharaoh and a character Abraham represents.

    Some suspect Terah, Abraham’s father was actually Tao I (Senakhtenre) of the 17th Dynasty. Some also suspect he was simply a general in the courts of Akhenaten. To discover the true person that Abraham’s character represents one would have to commit to a true study of Egyptian history. The author of the story hints to Abraham being of Egyptian royal blood through the link made with Pharaoh.

    In reality the way Egypt was organized and Abraham depicted as a foreigner or nomad, he would have never gotten that close to a Pharaoh let alone speak and converse with a pharaoh pertaining to his wife or sister.

    Most likely the author is hinting to the fact that either Abraham or Sarai was of the Royal family of the Red Crown.

    AbRam and SaRai

    Those are Egyptian names honoring the god Ra.

    The Egyptian connection to the Old Testament has been covered up over time. As more and more Egyptian antiquities is being released more and more proof as to who the Children of Israel truly are is revealed. I suspect it is the bloodline of the Red Crown and the tribes of Egypt that followed in the Amenhotep theology of Monotheism.
     
  8. Radical Faith

    Radical Faith Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    What amazes me is how many Jews, Christians and Muslims fail to the true messages in Genesis 12 so I shall analyze. First let me say we are only talking about Genesis 12 biblical. So let us begin...

    Genesis 12

    1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:



    In this verse God commands Abram to leave his country, his relatives and his fathers house and go where I tell you to go..

    2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

    We see God is making a covenant with Abram.

    3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


    God is saying I will give favor to those who are for you and cause strife for those who are again you. God is also saying because of Abram all people will be given favor from God..This is one of many preludes to the coming Messiah...

    4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

    5And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.


    Here Abram is disobeying God..God said get thee out of thy country and from thy kindred...Abram is take his Nephew and all that decided to tag along from Haran including slaves...


    6And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.

    Abram travelled to Sichem and it was inhabited by Canaanites...

    7And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.


    God is tell Abram here is where I will establish a kingdom for you children and children's children...Abram worshipped God there..

    8And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

    Abram moved from Moreh in Sichem to a mountain or hill between Bethel and Hai and pitches his tents there and worshipped God again.

    9And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.

    We see a pattern here of Abram moving even after God told him where his promise would be fulfilled...

    10And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land.

    Now we see why Abram's journey is so restless. This goes to question: Why would God send Abram to a land plagued by famine to establish a nation through him? This is probably what Abram was thinking. The simple answer is it was a test of faith. In verse 2 God said he would bless Abram and make his name great. How could this happen if Abram and his wife starved to death? When confronted with a seemingly impossible situation Abram's faith falters and tries to remedy the situation on his own instead of waiting for God.

    11And it came to pass, when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said unto Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon:

    12Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive.


    Here we see Abram involving Sarai his wife in his attempt to remedy his situation..Abram tells Sarai the Egyptians will kill me over her because she is so beautiful but they will not kill her..This is important. Abram is fearful for his life not his wife's. Had Abram obeyed God and stayed in Sichem the proceed events would not have come to pass..Abram's disobedience is now effecting his wife.

    13Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.


    Abram does the unthinkable in a marriage. He puts himself ahead of his wife and asks her to lie for him knowing that she will be taken by the Egyptians. Abram was not concerned about her treatment by the Egyptians. He was only thinking of himself..

    14And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair.

    15The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house.


    Abram was right when he thought that the Egyptians would think his wife was beautiful but he causes his wife to be taken by fabricating the lie that she was his sister. Remember were are talking about Genesis 12 only it has not been revealed that Sarai is Abrams half sister yet.

    16And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he *****, and menservants, and maidservants, and she *****, and camels.

    Question, Abram gets livestock and slaves for Sarai but what does Sarai get? This is pimping. In the pimp whore dynamic the pimps get all the money and the whore essentially gets nothing. The whore has her body exploited just so her pimp can get all the money and valueables. Abram received all the advantages of Sarai's beauty. His life was spared, he received livestock and slaves but Sarai recieved nothing.


    17And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife.

    God to the rescue. This was not about Pharaoh being punished but Sarai being rescued from the mess that Abram caused.

    18And Pharaoh called Abram and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife?

    19Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.


    We see Pharaoh confronts Abram about his deception and he is not happy. Pharaoh was an innocent victum of God's wrath in this instance..We don't know what may have happened if Pharaoh would have known Sarai was Abrams wife..What is clear and obvious is through Sarai God would keep his promise to Abram therefore all of Abram's mistakes had to be corrected...

    20And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.


    We see Pharaoh warning his men not about the power of God but about the trickery and deceit of Abram..One thing we must notice during all of this, No where in this chapter does it say Abram felt so much remorse for what he did that he gave what Pharaoh gave him back to Pharaoh. Instead he leaves in shame but with everything he had acquired...

    This is a wonderful illustration of the stages of faith. It is a good thing that the Bible show flaws in Abrams character yet God is still merciful enough not to not let harm come to Abram or Sarai despite themselves...This is a testiment to God's mercy and grace that is extended to us all despite want we do...


    Peace......
     
  9. dustyelbow

    dustyelbow Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    2 things

    Like river said based on reality, would you go into a neighborhood where you know you will be killed for having a 'fair' wife? Unless there is another misunderstood reason.

    To almost everyone in the world the answer is no.

    Why not send his wife alone into Egypt and feed off the take she would get.

    No Abram did not do that, he made a commitment or covenant of faith that exceeded his fear. So to me, Abram went into Egypt with faith. Not fear.

    Abram did not trust his OWN UNDERSTANDING.

    Then based on this verse was Pharoah gaining or losing value? To me he is losing value and we see that Abram and Sarai gain value.

    Why would God favor somebody that is disobedient and not plague Abram and Sarai but all who practice such deception?

    God favors nobody Paul the Apostle says.

    So why would Abram's creator exceed Pharoah's creator?
     
  10. dustyelbow

    dustyelbow Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I got an idea.

    I looked up kindred from dictionary.com.

    kin·dred Audio pronunciation of "kindred" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kndrd)
    n.

    1. A group of related persons, as a clan or tribe.
    2. (used with a pl. verb) A person's relatives; kinfolk.


    adj.

    1. Of the same ancestry or family: kindred clans.
    2. Having a similar or related origin, nature, or character: kindred emotions.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I am leaning towards adj #2.

    In this verse:

    we see 'kindred' with father's house.

    If kindred means
    2. (used with a pl. verb) A person's relatives; kinfolk.

    or

    1. Of the same ancestry or family: kindred clans.

    Why include father in this verse?

    Isnt father kindred too?

    I am leaning toward kindred as those who lack faith, who TRUST in their OWN UNDERSTANDING.

    Get away from them.

    Paul the Apostle mention that the sons of Abraham are of faith. Faith for me mean to TRUST NOT IN YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING but God.

    Why would God not let Abram fail if he was truly as disobedient for letting his brother come along?

    Did Lot and Abram both not TRUST in the OWN UNDERSTANDING like their clan or tribe did?

    Another fine mystery and lesson for the faithful.

    Yes.
     
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