Black Children : The Truth About School Integration

river

Watch Her Flow
MEMBER
Mar 22, 2004
6,461
1,282
Where the Niger meets the Nile
Occupation
Author
In hindsight, we see that integration was one of the most destructive forces brought against Black people. Integration did to us what slavery and Jim Crow combined could not do: disintegrated the Black family, destroyed the Black community. So why, I wondered, did our forefathers and mothers shed their blood sweat and tears fighting for integration? Is it that they just didn’t know? Truth be told, they weren’t fighting for integration. They were fighting for desegregation. They were fighting for the right to use the pubic facilities their tax money was already paying for. Mixing with whites was not a part of the original plan.

Take school integration for instance. You may have heard the phrase “Separate but Equal” as applied to segregated schools. If you’re like me, you probably thought that was something the White folks came up with to keep us in inferior schools and that the Supreme Court decision to declare Separate but Equal unconstitutional was a victory for civil rights. Truth be told, it was the civil rights workers who were fighting for Separate but Equal. At the time, the schools were separate but unequal. Public school is funded by property tax. The more valuable your home is, the higher tax you have to pay and the more money the schools in your district receive. The policy that automatically lowers property values for the entire neighborhood when a Black family moves in guarantees that schools that have Black children will receive less money than schools that are all white. This is what the civil rights workers were fighting against. Separate but Equal meant that Black students in Black schools taught by Black teachers would receive the same resources as the White schools and allow Black students to compete on an equal basis with White students in the job market. The Whites did not want this so they declared it unconstitutional. Instead of equality they gave us integration and having no higher court to go to, we took it.

I have a friend who, when she was a kid, loved to read. Then she was bused to a White school where a White teacher told her that people who read a lot talk too much. She was thirty years old still trying to regain her love for reading. Hers is not an isolated case.

What are some of your experiences in school? Do you feel like you’re getting the best education possible? Do you feel like the White kids know something you don’t know? Do you ever feel like our parents are joking when they tell you how important education is then send you to a school where you aren’t learning anything of value?
 

Jionni1

Member
MEMBER
Nov 5, 2013
18
4
If done right, I believe that integration has a lot of potential to do good. If we were to remain segregated it would have only served to polarize people. And I have to disagree with you about integration being responsible for disintegrating family structure. The broken families we see today are the result of a cultural legacy that probably started with slavery, when family members were auctioned off and seperated. Parents had a hard time forming emotional bonds with their own children if there was a strong chance that they would be sold eventually.

About property tax.... I hope that you aren't saying that there is a policy that specifically devalues homes as soon as a black family moves in. This has more to do with the real estate practice of "blockbusting". Real estate agents would take advantage of the "white flight" phenomenon, in which ethnic white/European populations would migrate from ethnically mixed urban areas. Real estate agents would somehow facilitate black people buying a house in a white neighborhood. The white residents, fearing plummeting property values would sell their homes, usually at a great loss. The property values would drop because everyone would sell their homes en masse. Through this tactic real estate agents would change the ethnic composition of a neighborhood quickly, profit from it, and lower property values in the process. Furthermore, many of the whites brought businesses with them when they left, which would always harm the local economy. If anything hurt these black neighborhoods and schools, it would be failed integration.

I think that it is unreasonable to believe that the the government's intent was malevolent when they began to favor integration. The core belief behind integrating black and white students was that it would help eradicate social barriers and promote economic equality. It is just simply unfortunate that schools happen to be funded by property tax and that econmically disadvantaged areas will consequently recieve less resources and less funding.
 

Clyde C Coger Jr

going above and beyond
PREMIUM MEMBER
Nov 17, 2006
52,712
11,341
Occupation
Speaker/Teacher/Author
If done right, I believe that integration has a lot of potential to do good. If we were to remain segregated it would have only served to polarize people. And I have to disagree with you about integration being responsible for disintegrating family structure. The broken families we see today are the result of a cultural legacy that probably started with slavery, when family members were auctioned off and seperated. Parents had a hard time forming emotional bonds with their own children if there was a strong chance that they would be sold eventually.

About property tax.... I hope that you aren't saying that there is a policy that specifically devalues homes as soon as a black family moves in. This has more to do with the real estate practice of "blockbusting". Real estate agents would take advantage of the "white flight" phenomenon, in which ethnic white/European populations would migrate from ethnically mixed urban areas. Real estate agents would somehow facilitate black people buying a house in a white neighborhood. The white residents, fearing plummeting property values would sell their homes, usually at a great loss. The property values would drop because everyone would sell their homes en masse. Through this tactic real estate agents would change the ethnic composition of a neighborhood quickly, profit from it, and lower property values in the process. Furthermore, many of the whites brought businesses with them when they left, which would always harm the local economy. If anything hurt these black neighborhoods and schools, it would be failed integration.

I think that it is unreasonable to believe that the the government's intent was malevolent when they began to favor integration. The core belief behind integrating black and white students was that it would help eradicate social barriers and promote economic equality. It is just simply unfortunate that schools happen to be funded by property tax and that econmically disadvantaged areas will consequently recieve less resources and less funding.


Well Jionni1,


It seems to me you've come in with guns blazing, in an attempt to rationalized the effects, centrally caused by racism white supremacy. Its a little late, isn't it, to now say that integration wasn't done right or correctly?

The policy which devalued homes assumed by blacks in white communities is directly connected to racism white supremacy, somehow, wasn't it?

Aw, failed integration, done incorrectly or not done rightly. Again, who had and has control of society, blacks or whites? Surely not black people, the silent majority.

Simply unfortunate? Schools happened? Disadvantaged areas, chiefly populated by blacks or non-whites, receive less resources and less funding. Could this fact be the end result of racism white supremacy, conducted by the vocal minority?


To say something is simply unfortunate or to blame the schools, without pinpointing those responsible within the school system for it's failure, is superficial and callous, from my perspective.
 

Jionni1

Member
MEMBER
Nov 5, 2013
18
4
I don't know how to properly use another user's text, so please bear with me.

"The policy which devalued homes assumed by blacks in white communities is directly connected to racism white supremacy, somehow, wasn't it?"
It had more to do with white people fleeing neighborhoods, either because they were prejudiced, or for fear of dropping property values. Naturally, real estate agents took advantage of that for profit. I wouldn't blame the current condition of black neighborhoods and schools on white supremecism as much as I would blame it on our own economic system. Resources will be distributed to schools disproportionately for a number of reasons, and the direct consequence to this is that those with low socio-economic statuses will get the short end of the stick every time.
"Could this fact be the end result of racism white supremacy......?"
I would say that the poor ecnomic status of many ethnic minorities is the end result of racism and discrimination. Cultural legacies are real and inequalities with respect to race and ethnicity have persisted. No arguing there.
"To say something is simply unfortunate or to blame the schools, without pinpointing those responsible within the school system for it's failure, is superficial and callous, from my perspective"
I'm not denying that there have been failings within the institution itself, but I would argue that the guilt doesn't simply land on individuals. Afterall, the phenomenon of "white flight" and the resulting low property values has a lot to do with the condition of black neighborhoods and schools, and it isn't the fault of people within the school system.
 

Clyde C Coger Jr

going above and beyond
PREMIUM MEMBER
Nov 17, 2006
52,712
11,341
Occupation
Speaker/Teacher/Author
I don't know how to properly use another user's text, so please bear with me.

"The policy which devalued homes assumed by blacks in white communities is directly connected to racism white supremacy, somehow, wasn't it?"
It had more to do with white people fleeing neighborhoods, either because they were prejudiced, or for fear of dropping property values. Naturally, real estate agents took advantage of that for profit. I wouldn't blame the current condition of black neighborhoods and schools on white supremecism as much as I would blame it on our own economic system. Resources will be distributed to schools disproportionately for a number of reasons, and the direct consequence to this is that those with low socio-economic statuses will get the short end of the stick every time.
"Could this fact be the end result of racism white supremacy......?"
I would say that the poor ecnomic status of many ethnic minorities is the end result of racism and discrimination. Cultural legacies are real and inequalities with respect to race and ethnicity have persisted. No arguing there.
"To say something is simply unfortunate or to blame the schools, without pinpointing those responsible within the school system for it's failure, is superficial and callous, from my perspective"
I'm not denying that there have been failings within the institution itself, but I would argue that the guilt doesn't simply land on individuals. Afterall, the phenomenon of "white flight" and the resulting low property values has a lot to do with the condition of black neighborhoods and schools, and it isn't the fault of people within the school system.


Beginning with the condition of black neighborhoods, would it be safe to say, perhaps, somehow, racism white supremacy played a central role? Or, are black folks at fault, themselves, for ghettos?

Since we have acknowledgement of some racism and discrimination, aren't these acts carried out by individuals? And if so, institutions then, are set up, organized and ran by individuals, correct?

This same economic system you speak of, didn't it benefit from free slave labor, at the outset? What would be your take on Reparations, as restitution, for the indigenous ancestors of that forced free slave labor market?

Why would white people pick up and leave and take businesses with them? The appearance is that prejudice, as you suggest it be called, is strongly related to racism and discrimination.

Denial is problematic when attempting to rationalized the deep and ingrain affects impacted upon black people living in a system of racism white supremacy.
 

Angela22

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Feb 26, 2013
6,764
3,080
So instead of separate but equal, which was really separate and unequal, we got integration with inequality still, because caucasians were PO'd that blacks wouldn't take whatever was given.

And blacks were led to believe it couldn't be inequality that was holding us back, because being integrated just had to automatically mean everything was fair, which was of course, BS and a cover up.
 

Angela22

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Feb 26, 2013
6,764
3,080
I think that it is unreasonable to believe that the the government's intent was malevolent when they began to favor integration.

I think it's pretty naïve to think there was no malicious intent on their part. I didn't think such was the case, at first, either.
 

Jionni1

Member
MEMBER
Nov 5, 2013
18
4
"Beginning with the condition of black neighborhoods, would it be safe to say, perhaps, somehow, racism white supremacy played a central role? Or, are black folks at fault, themselves, for ghettos?"
I will start by saying that it is almost impossible for me not to adopt an extremely dynamic view on this simply because there are so many factors to consider. Black people are not at fault for the existence of ghettos. Basically, black people have been at a disadvantage because they had trouble integrating into society after slavery was abolished, and they were not able to accumulate capital, so yes, discrimination did play a huge role. But one huge causal factor for the condition of black neighborhoods and schools today is the fact that the large scale immigration of black people into neighborhoods(especially in major industrial centers) caused white people to move out, consequently making property values drop.



"Since we have acknowledgement of some racism and discrimination, aren't these acts carried out by individuals? And if so, institutions then, are set up, organized and ran by individuals, correct?"
I did say that there were mistakes made within the school system. So I did not dismiss any instances of racism that may have been perpetrated by authorities within that institution. However, that has little to do with local property taxes and ethnic emigration, which I suggested had a lot to do with the condition of black neighborhoods and schools.



"This same economic system you speak of, didn't it benefit from free slave labor, at the outset? What would be your take on Reparations, as restitution, for the indigenous ancestors of that forced free slave labor market?"
I was suggesting that it is set up in a way that naturally creates large disparities. I suggest we talk about that more elsewhere, because it is a huge topic to cover. And my take on slavery reparations is that they are simply unrealistic. If a sum were to be payed to African Americans, or direct decendents of slaves, there arises the problem of deciding on who to tax to get those funds. There are programs we can use to decrease wealth disparities between ethnic groups, and I would favor something along those lines instead.



"Why would white people pick up and leave and take businesses with them? The appearance is that prejudice, as you suggest it be called, is strongly related to racism and discrimination."
When people move from an area, they typically take their businesses with them. This migration(the "white flight") happened because of high population density, the immigration of ethnic minorities into ethnically homogenous areas, and because of the fear of dropping property values. I prefer to uses the word "prejudice" when I am referring to unfavorable views and feelings that one person may hold against an entire racial group, because that is what it is.
 

Clyde C Coger Jr

going above and beyond
PREMIUM MEMBER
Nov 17, 2006
52,712
11,341
Occupation
Speaker/Teacher/Author
"Beginning with the condition of black neighborhoods, would it be safe to say, perhaps, somehow, racism white supremacy played a central role? Or, are black folks at fault, themselves, for ghettos?"
I will start by saying that it is almost impossible for me not to adopt an extremely dynamic view on this simply because there are so many factors to consider. Black people are not at fault for the existence of ghettos. Basically, black people have been at a disadvantage because they had trouble integrating into society after slavery was abolished, and they were not able to accumulate capital, so yes, discrimination did play a huge role. But one huge causal factor for the condition of black neighborhoods and schools today is the fact that the large scale immigration of black people into neighborhoods(especially in major industrial centers) caused white people to move out, consequently making property values drop.



"Since we have acknowledgement of some racism and discrimination, aren't these acts carried out by individuals? And if so, institutions then, are set up, organized and ran by individuals, correct?"
I did say that there were mistakes made within the school system. So I did not dismiss any instances of racism that may have been perpetrated by authorities within that institution. However, that has little to do with local property taxes and ethnic emigration, which I suggested had a lot to do with the condition of black neighborhoods and schools.



"This same economic system you speak of, didn't it benefit from free slave labor, at the outset? What would be your take on Reparations, as restitution, for the indigenous ancestors of that forced free slave labor market?"
I was suggesting that it is set up in a way that naturally creates large disparities. I suggest we talk about that more elsewhere, because it is a huge topic to cover. And my take on slavery reparations is that they are simply unrealistic. If a sum were to be payed to African Americans, or direct decendents of slaves, there arises the problem of deciding on who to tax to get those funds. There are programs we can use to decrease wealth disparities between ethnic groups, and I would favor something along those lines instead.



"Why would white people pick up and leave and take businesses with them? The appearance is that prejudice, as you suggest it be called, is strongly related to racism and discrimination."
When people move from an area, they typically take their businesses with them. This migration(the "white flight") happened because of high population density, the immigration of ethnic minorities into ethnically homogenous areas, and because of the fear of dropping property values. I prefer to uses the word "prejudice" when I am referring to unfavorable views and feelings that one person may hold against an entire racial group, because that is what it is.


Its been a very good dialog Jionni1, I really enjoyed having it. The take away concessions are noted in blue, above. However, let me share another interesting perspective on Reparations:



White boy talking reparations


Discussion in 'Black People Open Forum' started by BlackScratchFever, Jun 15, 2013

http://destee.com/index.php?threads/white-boy-talking-reparations.76605/#post-808748

http://destee.com/index.php?threads/white-boy-talking-reparations.76605/#post-808773



Obviously, my preference would be racism white supremacy over the simple matter of prejudice, which occurs within racial groups, daily; and is considered nowhere near the cause of the effect to what we've been having a conversation about.
 

writer33

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Mar 3, 2014
208
80
The comments here about "separate but equal (and usually unequal) versus "integrated" schools provides much to think about. And, true, I recognize the integrated schools were strongly tilted to white community values....and having been a substitute teacher in inner city schools, I began to sense the truth in this.
Not that I know what it is, but I definitely believe schools, and education, must be able to relate socially to black community values, and I say this knowing I still need to begin to understand what those values really are, and what they should mean.
One thing I want to say here....is in predominantly black schools where white kids were in the minority, I found the black majority seemed far more willing to welcome the minority white kids into their world, than majority white schools welcomed black minorities. In schools where I taught, I began to pick up on this and found it quite uplifting. And deeply of interest.
 

Consciousness Raising Online!

Latest profile posts

butterfly#1 wrote on Angela22's profile.
Absolutely!
Destee wrote on butterfly#1's profile.
Hi Sweetie Pie Honey Bunch!!!! ... :love: :yaay: :kiss: :yaay: :love:
Love is Gonna Last!!
Destee wrote on One-Hundredd's profile.
@One-Hundredd and @Clyde C Coger Jr ... everyone can add images and video to their own albums (as well as other categories) by clicking the MEDIA link at the top of the page too ... using this link ... https://destee.com/media/ ... just click ... ADD NEW ... to add new images / videos ... Loving Us! Thanks to both of you! :heart:
Destee wrote on Ms Drea's profile.
Hi My Dear Darling Sister - I owe you a phone call. Don't give up on me. I Love You! :heart:
Top