Black Spirituality Religion : The 'the existence of any spiritual being has never been able to be proven 'Debate

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by hiphopolx, Feb 14, 2007.

  1. hiphopolx

    hiphopolx Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    This is what was said in a Black relationship forum so I want to steer ir over here The Quote (well part of it) went like this.

    'Now religious people say it's some-thing called Ausar, God, Yahweh, Jesus Christ, Allah, Krishna, Ahura-Mazda, Marduke ad infinitum, that is this spiritual being or being of energy who has already told us what's it like not physically existing, and personally interferes with our lives everyday to help us get through our material existence. The question is can this assertion be proven as a basis in fact?

    The answer is unequivocally no; the existence of any spiritual being has never been able to be proven beyond faith and belief in the existence of the being itself. All religions are based on belief and faith, in order to maintain their existence; metaphysics and spirituality are also based on belief and faith in order to exist as well. None of these understandings are based on facts in reality, which is the reality we are living in; this is a reality of energy and matter, not solely energy ........

    That was the part I had to swing over here. I couldn't let this go with out a 'rebut' I'm short on time right now but I got some degrees to drop when I come back
    And anyone who has read my post knows I DO NOT USE the Bible or any holy book as a reference of fact. I will appeal to our own commonly shared
    Divine Intelligence. Which is laced with a universal langauge we call Math

    peace
     
  2. silent-ra

    silent-ra Banned MEMBER

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    interesting...waiting to see yor response.
     
  3. hiphopolx

    hiphopolx Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Now to be fair here is a link to that whole post http://destee.com/forums/showpost.php?p=464348&postcount=135

    Now again dealing with the part

    " Now religious people say it's some-thing called Ausar, God, Yahweh, Jesus Christ, Allah, Krishna, Ahura-Mazda, Marduke ad infinitum, that is this spiritual being or being of energy who has already told us what's it like not physically existing, and personally interferes with our lives everyday to help us get through our material existence. The question is can this assertion be proven as a basis in fact?

    The answer is unequivocally no; the existence of any spiritual being has never been able to be proven beyond faith and belief in the existence of the being itself. All religions are based on belief and faith, in order to maintain their existence; metaphysics and spirituality are also based on belief and faith in order to exist as well. None of these understandings are based on facts in reality, which is the reality we are living in; this is a reality of energy and matter, not solely energy (spirit). "


    I'd like to ask the authur of this statement? Is it possible that a dozen different car manufactoring companies(Ford Toyota Honda and the like) who haven't seen or comunicated in any way come up with the same car designs? (and b4 someone comes up with any other way. I'm talking a design engineer making a blueprint design of the next line of cars and all the others design engineers from the various other companies coming up with the same design)

    If you agree that this isn't possible Then you'd have to agree that if you see a bunch of cars with the same basic design then it would have to come from One particular company. I think we all can agree that car factory could not have been made out of some random combinaton of chemicals that exploded (the Big Bang Thang) Yet in nature these same basic designs in Life and non-Life (see the elemental periodic table) keep coming up. So could anyone reading this ask any Atheist they know How could anything but an Intelligent being come up with these basic (mathematically) designs in our universe. I'm interested in listening with a open mind :)

    peace
     
  4. nibs

    nibs Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    people can experiment with astral projection to experience with thier own spiritual nature.
    in kemet, those techniques were used to communicate with the gods. all african religions utilize divination, trance/possessions to communicate with the gods.

    the existence of spiritual beings is not speculative; but if you isolate specific beings...you can question which actually exist and which are speculative.

    if you have a religion based around a being that never walked on earth or manifested...that cannot be communicated with...can that being be said to exist???
     
  5. NeterHeru

    NeterHeru Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    HIPHOPOLX:

    Well I'm certainly glad something I have said sparked a debate or interest in discussing such abstract terms :) On to the question, however that you proposed. First, before I answer it, allow me to provide you with the context of the quotes you've cited, in order to get a clearer understanding of what I was actually talking about.

    I was addressing Atheism and Pragmatism, based on a statement made by Sun Ship in another forum, which you know quite well. The quotes you've cited are directly in support of the following statement made by me:

    "metaphysics, as far as it goes, is a misnomer because there is nothing beyond materiality except energy, which is the buttress for all corporeality. Nonetheless there maybe something beyond energy, but we don't know if such a something exists, since not a single person physically living today has ever come back from this spiritual realm (read: energy existence), after having already physically expired (body and all), and spoke to us as an energy being to tell us precisely what's it like not physically existing."

    I was addressing the fact that according to religion, metaphysics, spirituality, and what people commonly believe respecting a creator or creators, there exists a netherworld, afterlife, otherworld, hell, Hades, heaven, spiritual realm, celestial world ad infinitum, and this otherworld exists because gods, goddesses, God, supernatural beings, Aliens, cosmic entities, Dr. Malachi Z. York, etc. returned from this supernatural realm of spirit, landed on earth and told us that it exists.

    Moreover, these supernatural beings, including God, are said to have left us tools (astrology), books (Holy Bible), and signs & symbols (pyramids, Stonehenge, runes) that allow us to either tap into this netherworld to commune with them or show us the way of explaining how we will get there and what happens when we do get there. Now, what I was saying is that there's not a single person living, breathing, talking, walking, procreating, in the 21st century, who was a supernatural being and has returned to the natural world as either a supernatural being or human being and told us exactly what's it like being in such a realm and returning.

    Thus all we have are people's beliefs, sayings, and trances, dream visions, out of mind and body projections, psychic connections, and what have you, that claim to have communed with such entities or are themselves these entities. That's all; we don't have anything else to go on, other than mere speculation and opinions.

    With all this in mind let's move onto your question, respecting the car manufacturing. I gather, based upon your line of questioning, that what you are alluding to is a blueprint. That is, a blueprint must exist somewhere and have to have been created by someone, in order to sufficiently explain the natural order of life and the universe itself, since there are too many coincidences to leave it all up to chance. If this is a wrong extrapolation of what you are saying please correct me.

    However, if I'm correct regarding your alluded blueprint, I answer your questions thusly: The intelligence we as human beings ascribe to the natural order of things is merely our way of trying to make sense of that which we cannot explain yet. It's easier for us to believe that, since we cannot explain precisely how is it that a blueprint exists, yet we cannot verify the existence of a blueprint maker; the blueprint maker must be beyond our human capability of sensing its existence. Therefore, since we cannot sense its presence it's less of a mental struggle for us trying to find out if its presence resides somewhere, than for us to simply believe the blueprint maker's presence is everywhere and in everything.

    So, I agree and disagree with you in that it isn't possible if no matter what any car company manufactured if all there cars were designed exactly the same, that isn't possible. Yet, and here is my disagreement, if all the cars manufactured were similar in design--as they all literally are--then that is possible.

    The similarities and dissimilarities we as human beings observe in our natural world are natural occurrences, of our material existence. They're not, as we want them to be, acts of divine providence or supernatural beings or forces at work. Everything, I repeat, everything in human reality can be explained through and by nature, if we know what to look for and ascertain respecting it.

    See I would agree with everyone regarding otherworld and supernatural beings if I were not a material being, but I am a material being living within the confines of a reality comprised of energy and matter. Within the other world of Spirit, if it exists, there is no matter and only energy, because there is no need for Matter in an environment where time, space, sense and cognition are all non-existent.

    Here's another thing to consider brother, the word matter is derived from the Latin word mater, which means mother and material. Therefore, if we want to explain our existence--as it is now--mythologically speaking we are all simply residing within the womb of our mother, which is the universe itself, our galaxy and all the planets. This is one, of many reasons, why many ancient belief systems refer to our planet as either the Earth Mother or Mother Earth. Yet if we remove the mythos or a mythological expression from this word, all it simply means is our existence is material, along with our universe.

    In short, all that I am saying, respecting the non-existence of these supernatural beings is that if such beings existed then all human beings would be freely living, conversing, procreating, murdering, enslaving, educating, fighting, debating etc. with all supernatural beings. There would be no barrier between the two entities, which prevents them from engaging in such activity. But what is this barrier?

    This barrier is none other than our materiality, for our material existence cannot copulate with immaterial existence, and the only time it can--again if this otherworldly place of these beings exist--is when we no longer physically exist. Thus the only way to truly verify whether or not the Spirit world exists, filled with supernatural beings, is to physically die and go to their realm.

    Yet, by then, it does not even matter whether you can prove it exists or not to your former corporeal acquaintances, because you can no longer even communicate with them, in a manner that they can readily comprehend, since this requires materiality. And as a being of pure energy, spirituality, Spirit or a supernatural being, materiality is not something you have any longer. So Eryka Badu was right, "Guess I'll see you next lifetime," the next lifetime when I return as a corporeal being :shades: And the cyclical question still remains: If this process even exists, along with this Spirit world, why hasn't anyone returned yet?
     
  6. taaa7

    taaa7 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Shalom All,

    Nothing can be proven - it is either accepted or not accepted. Even if some being came forward from beyond the spiritual (if indeed it does exist) what could it possibly do to prove the place it came from exist? One can supply a ton of evidence, but in the end, it comes down to whether or not the evidence is accepted or not accepted. Where do you "go" when you "go" to sleep? Where do dreams take place - physical, spiritual, beyond the spiritual, etc.?


    Liberation begins at home.


    I'll be free, I'll be free,
    And none shall deny,
    With fetters and chains,
    This spirit of mine.......
    By any means necessary

    Peace, Blessings
     
  7. hiphopolx

    hiphopolx Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    My answer would be yes If said being left some kind evidence of it's existence/presence. for example. You come back from the store and bought a bunch of food cans and you threw the cans in no order (chaos) in your food cabinet. You go out and come back home and the cans are all stacked up nice and neatly. You tell your peeps I 'know' it was your crazy ex significant other. They say how do you know? You know she is the only one who'd do that cause she is a neat freak (purpose) and the cans could not stack neatly by themselves (order) . But you don't see her at the moment (hidden). But because of the key words I put in brackets. You have evidence of who came into your house. Since she was your Ex you know her nature. So you know the purpose/why she did it. So with all this evidence and your past experience (our ancients) You can safely say "I know my EX is around here some where. And she definitly did it. Not to compare God to a weird Ex girlfriend but This is how I can safely say I know there is a God when "comparing evidence" to an atheist. And not just know of an existence You can also understand the purpose of the existence which is a point even alot of God believing folk miss.
    And I didn't even need a book
     
  8. NeterHeru

    NeterHeru Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    TAAA7:

    Greetings to you as well, but I must disagree with your contention that nothing can be proven, and the only thing that makes proof valid is whether or not it is accepted. Without getting into numerous examples of what can be proven, I'll leave you with just one essentially:

    Is it true that above your chest and betwixt your shoulder blades there is something that us humans call a head, which contains within something us humans call a skull that is attached to something we call a spine? Now if this is a correct assertion of mine how do you prove it to be true, without either accepting it or not?

    Well the easy way would be by virtue of the fact you have posted on this website means you have a head, and a skull within it, attached to a spine, because if not you would--quite frankly--be dead. The more costly and medically dangerous way would be to go to any hospital and have your head and chest x-rayed in order to verify or prove that you do have a head, and within it is contained a skull attached to a spine. Therefore, the proof would be contained in the x-ray and acceptance would then be inconsequential ;)

    HIPHOPOLX:

    I know you were responding to Nibs with your post, but without challenging your belief in the existence of God I must tell you that there are some flaws within your logic. For one thing part of your conclusion is based upon knowing the purpose of your EX, but I must ask you how do you know God's purpose, and how would you know it unless he tells you what it is? Additionally, and more importantly, how do you know the nature of God without being God himself?

    Honestly I must inquire from you how would you know what God's purpose and nature are, absent of the Holy Bible or Qur'an if you're a Muslim? These are just some questions to consider, rather than be answered. I'm interested in you analyzing your conclusion--for yourself--within the hypothesis you've provided for Nibs, based on its logical premises (purpose, nature, chaos, order etc.).
     
  9. OmowaleX

    OmowaleX Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    This reminds me of some discussion from Black Planet concerning the topic of "Intelligent Design".

    Coming from an early engineering perspective I must ask what is it that guides "these basic (mathematically) designs in our universe"? If I was an electrical designer I would not start with the design itself. There are laws, principals, specifications which GOVERN this design.

    Given the complexity of the "design process" itself indicates that there is a process of "intelligence" at work.
     
  10. OmowaleX

    OmowaleX Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    "can that being be said to exist??"

    Surely, if this "being" is a mater of speculation it exists at least in a subjective form. Furthermore, not all "beings" exist in the material, physical universe. Some beings are "etheric". This is not so say that they are immaterial but only that not all beings exist in the flesh. Same with "astral" beings. The physical plane is only one plane of existence.
     
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