Black Spirituality Religion : The PROBLEM with Agreeing to Disagree

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by A007, Sep 2, 2009.

  1. A007

    A007 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    When making a case for progress in our communities or any other relationship that requires change, agreeing to disagree is only second to completely ignoring a person as what is the WORST POSSIBLE COURSE OF ACTION. Of course ignoring or avoiding working towards a solution is the worst. This is where communication breaks down all together. However, agreeing to disagree is a close second because the outcome is the same...NOTHING. There are certain things that are subjective opinion and can not be verified by logic, evidence, and/or facts. These things will remain relegated to the abyss of agreeing to disagree. However, on those things that CAN BE verified by logic, evidence and/or facts then when such verification is not attempted by both parties and a declaration to agree to disagree (in order to spare feelings) is made, it is the same as ignoring each other. Basically we are saying you believe what you want and let me believe what I want and the stalemate is the BEST SOLUTION TO OUR CONVERSATION. But, it is NO COURSE OF ACTION!! It changes nothing! And in a marriage that needs change or a community that is desperate for change how is DOING NOTHING even sane?

    Think about what the statement of let's agree to disagree means...It means " I am not willing to change and I see that you are not either, so forget it" Now how is that reasonable in a situation that REQUIRES CHANGE? I realize that our respective beliefs have our eternal souls invested in them and there is a certain amount of indoctrination, fear (for the soul) and concern for our own connection to God that keeps us from even entertaining the possibility that our belief system could be wrong. Muslims are not going to listen to a devout Jew...so on an so forth. So, we say let's respect each others beliefs and not care who is right or wrong because I HAVE TRUTH AND YOU DON'T nan nan ni nan nan. This is harmful to the person that subscribes to that feeling because a closed fist (or mind in this case) can receive nothing, it can only hold on to what is already in it.

    As it relates to our community, It is possible to leave our respective religions at the door when trying to affect change in our communities. The problem with that however, seems to be that everyone believes there respective religion is THE CHANGE that the community needs. Well, I believe we are all clear that we won't agree on a specific religion (because we just agree to disagree) so it leaves us to DO NOTHING in our community. We are in a perpetual state of stagnation brought on by people's inability to put their respective religions aside. Now, if we are going to harp on religion, should we DEBATE and SEARCH until we see what is TRUE?

    So, although I will respect the wishes of Queen Destee here, I will continue to fight for others to be free from their respective religions so we can work towards CHANGE in our communities elsewhere. I seem to making progress slowly but surely.

    Peace and Love
     
  2. carsonh

    carsonh Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Agreeing to disagree is not necessarily a lack of action. When there is a history of disagreement and conflicts from disagreements, then the decision to "agree to disagree" is an action. Let us break down the cliche. Firstly there is the 'agree' part of it and this is the most important part of it, because this tells us what it is; an agreement. Second the 'to disagree' this is important also, this tells us what the agreement is. A disagreement is the verbal/physical manifestation of differences, so basically a disagreement highlights a difference of differences. An agreement to disagree is therefore the acknowledgment and acceptance of our differences.

    If you really want to talk about change this is the frame work in which it will have to happen. A framework where people understand that we cannot and will not be the same and differences are intrinsic and that we will have to work together while being different at the same time.
    You said a closed mind can receive nothing, but be mindful that when one makes an agreement with another ones mind is no longer closed. Agreeing to acknowledge that person as different from you and you from them and accept this then the mind is opening and real changes can begin to manifest.

    As for "freeing others from their perspective religions", I'll say this, "none can fathom the workings of the almighty God, each of the worlds religions are like the fingers on the hand of God" who am I to "free someone from that, moreover, why should free someone from that?

    Peace, love and guidance.
     
  3. A007

    A007 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Yes agreeing to disagree is action itself. But, it lends itself to no course of action that will change anything. I agree that we should be accepting of those things that are intrinsically different in us. We are not going to enjoy the same foods, be socialized the same way as others, or a thousand other subjective things that make us different. By agreeing to accept these differences we make it easier for us to come together to affect change. But, if it is the CHANGE that we are disagreeing about (which is what i am referring to) then agreeing to disagree does NOTHING to help facilitate that change.

    Who am I to free someone...nobody special...just a person who wants the BEST for the world. Why would I free someone or consider freeing them best for the world? Because it can be VERIFIED that religion is the most divisive thing on the planet. How can dividing us be good for us if we are all connected by God?
     
  4. carsonh

    carsonh Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    There is the simple fact that you cannot get people to agree on selected actions of change, no to mention a single action of change.

    You said it yourself "we are not going to.. be socilised the same way..", religion is one of the socialsing factors in the world, the two cannot be separated.

    You sound no different than religious fanatics when you say "..just a person who wants the BEST for the world."

    How can dividing us be good if we are all connected by God? No two people on the planet are the same, at the very basis of it our differences go right down to the individual level. That said, there are groups of people who are more similar to each other than other groups of people, and these groups highlight their similarities and come together on the foundation of similarity. Some of these similarities are formulated, like religion, sexuality, preference in books, sports, while others are intrinsic, ethnicity, race, geography, family. We divide things so that we can cope, it is human nature, anything too large or too small is out of our scale and, therefore, out of our scope of proper understanding. This is where division is good. Do not misunderstand me, when I say division I mean equitable divisions wherein differences are accepted and rights are not infringed upon.

    Religion is the most diverse thing for a reason; it is the most personal thing that humans share collectively. Since we are different right down to the personal level it is no wonder that the more personal business is necessary within a group the more groups there will be.
     
  5. A007

    A007 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    What is the alternative...to NOT WANT THE BEST FOR THE WORLD?
     
  6. SPEAKFREEDOMnet

    SPEAKFREEDOMnet Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    whats really going on!?

    Uhuru Fam,

    Please read the two sets of "scriptures" below. The first taken from Islam the second from Christianity. Someone please explain how Our Unity can be accomplished with such fundamental religious indoctrination?

    I've noticed how the "Believers"(Christianity, Islam, Etc) make it seem so simple...lets just agree to disagree, or just check your religion at the door, in the name of peace, getting along and friendship. Question: How do you reconcile the contradiction to your very own Word Of God?

    This is not to start another endless fight. I would hope an honest dialog could be had. At least perhaps each will consider taking an honest look within. I'm concerned with the progress of OUR MOVEMENT!! And it is extremely clear from this site alone and more importantly the scriptures below that religion and OUR UNITY just don't seem to mix. (will give example when I have more time)

    and no I'm not an atheist.

    ISLAM​

    Surah 9: 1-14 - Repentance
    9:1 Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
    (9:1-4) "Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger." Allah and Muhammad are not bound by treaties made with idolaters (except for those who don't oppose Allah or Muhammad).

    9:2 Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).
    (9:2) "Ye cannot escape Allah. Allah will confound the disbelievers."

    9:3 And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,
    (9:3) "Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve." Doom in the Quran

    9:4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

    9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    (9:5) The Verse of the Sword "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them." Is each person be free to believe as he or she wishes?

    9:6 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
    (9:6) "Afterward convey him to his place of safety." Those who submit and convert to Islam will be treated well. (Those who don't submit will be killed. See previous verse.)

    9:7 How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship ? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.
    (9:7-9) "How can there be any treaty for the others?" Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted.

    9:8 How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you ? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.

    9:9 They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they are wont to do.

    9:10 And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors.

    9:11 But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
    (9:11) "If they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion." Treat converts to Islam well. (Kill those who refuse to convert. See 9:5)

    9:12 And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.

    9:13 Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first ? What! Fear ye them ? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers

    9:14 Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
    (9:12-14) "Fight them!"
    Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory. (Quoted by Osama bin Laden in his 'letter to America' as a justification for the 11 September 2001 attacks.)
    Is each person be free to believe as he or she wishes?


    CHRISTIANITY
    2nd Corthians 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

    Ephesians 5:11 - Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;

    1 John 2:15 - Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    James 4:4 - You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

    Now I realize that some will say or at least think that these scripture "must be read in proper context" and "spiritually discerned" in order to understand them. For the record been there done that, and I KNOW for certain the influence these teachings/interpretations have on the minds of it's faithful followers.

    So I'm thinking how is OUR UNITY possible when OUR GOD(s) tell us otherwise!?:10500:

    UHURU NOW!!
     
  7. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    Brothers A007 and SPEAKFREEDOMnet ... thank you both for respecting this community, [ame="http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59361"]its mission[/ame], even when you'd rather do otherwise.

    It's hard (perhaps impossible) for me to convince you or anyone, that you should respect your Sister or Brother's right to live, worship, etc., as they see fit, while still building with them. It may be your mission in life to compel others, by any means necessary, to live as you say and think they should. I don't want to hinder that or suggest you shouldn't do it, even though I don't agree with it.

    There are so many things that we will not agree on, too many to mention, as we are a very diverse people. If we remain stuck on them all, allowing forward movement to be hindered each and every time, we'll never get anything done. Agreeing to disagree is a mature position to take, when it's clear that those involved are equally determined to stand their ground, and have a right to do so. The challenge at that point, becomes, how do we work together in spite of these differences.

    Some of you say that it's not possible to work with those that disagree with you, or choose not to take your advice. That's fine. You certainly have that option, and I won't be spending lots of time trying to convince you otherwise. That's just not how I operate, but there are many ways to do a thing, so don't mind me.

    If you are compelled to turn Christians into Muslims, or Muslims into Christians, or rid the world of them all, be my guest. In fact, if you do that, rid the world of them all, the few on this site will probably skootch right over to the side you want them on, out of fear ... or at least they'll pretend to be what you want them to be ... so you don't get rid of them, like you did the rest.

    Brother SPEAKFREEDOMnet ... while you think this community is a clear example that religion and unity cannot mix, we can look across the landscape and see that not much of anything+anything is a good mix for us, when it comes to unity. It has evaded our people at every turn, no matter the variables. This is what we must overcome. Young Black Men are actually killing each other every single night. Real, young, vibrant lives lost, every single day, and religion and unity are probably never mentioned during those encounters. What do we blame that on? Brothers not being able to agree to disagree? Islam? Christianity? What?

    We must turn the tide, and while it is a challenge, more lows than highs ... trying to bring us all together respectfully ... I'm determined to see this effort to the end. Success is not guaranteed, but I believe we can get past all of this, rising above the differences that will probably always exist.

    Again, I thank you both for respecting what we're trying to do here, even if you don't agree with it.

    Much Love and Peace.

    :heart:

    Destee
     
  8. A007

    A007 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Queen Destee,

    No the young brothers in the hood are not killing each other because they disagree over religion. But, they are killing each other IN SPITE of their respective religious beliefs because money seems to be trumping faith. I am not saying the disagreements are the reason for the disunity, I am saying that we should be WILLING TO CHANGE and agreeing to disagree keeps us from changing. So, if we are unwilling to change, how can we expect anything to change around us?

    It is not my goal to rid the world of the religious. I don't engage in acts of futility...lol So, the goal is to get us to check our religious beliefs at the door so we can have civil conversations that lead to change in our communities. In my humble opinion we are going to have to put money in front because 1 dollar + 1 dollar = 2 dollars is the only thing that we ALL agree on. And since we will agree to disagree about the other things, we need to build on the one thing that we do agree on.


    Peace and Love
     
  9. Clyde C Coger Jr

    Clyde C Coger Jr going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    In the Spirit of Sankofa and Truth!




    carsonh,
    :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

     
  10. Putney Swope

    Putney Swope Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    There is a point of logic, that comes from those with wisdom, and in the case of conflicts of religious ideologies and community development,
    El Hajj Malik Shabbazz said it best.

    "You don't catch hell, cause you are a Muslim or a Hebrew, you don't catch hell because you are a Baptist or a Methodist, or a Mason or an Elk,

    You catch hell because you are Black"

    Basicaly what he was saying is that any conversation other then the common denominator of what we all came from the womb with our Blackness, not our religion, not our belief systems, not my religion is best for all and yours is foolish so I will school you, but

    the common denominator of being Black

    Malcolm and Martin only became a threat to the plutocracy
    when they agreed to disagree about religious beliefs, without being disagreeable,
    and as Malcolm stated , put all that aside for the benfit of uniting Black people of all faiths, lack of faiths, religions, and beliefs,

    for the common good of the race!!!!
     
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