Black Christians : The "Logia" of The Lord

Discussion in 'Christian Study Group' started by Omowale Jabali, Dec 3, 2011.

  1. Omowale Jabali

    Omowale Jabali The Cosmic Journeyman PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The following is an excerpt from the text by Gerald Massey:

    Simon Magus, who has pointed out the contradictory nature of the sayings. I hold it only to be a matter of time and research to prove that the sayings in general assigned to Jesus, which are taken to demonstrate his historic existence as a personal teacher, were pre-extant, pre-historic, and pre-christian. One of the sayings in the Mysteries reported by Plato was, "Many are the Thyrsus-bearers but few are the Mystics," which is echoed twice over by Matthew in the saying, "Many are called but few are chosen." "It is more blessed to give than to receive," is one of the Logia of the Lord quoted in the book of Acts, but not found in the Gospels. Two of the sayings are identified as Essenic by Josephus, who says the Essenes swear not at all, but whatsoever they say is firmer than an oath; and when Jesus says, "A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another," there was certainly nothing new in that which had been a command and a practice of the Essenes ages before. Men knew who were the Essenes by their love for one another. Some of the parables appear in the Talmud, amongst them are those of the Wise and Unwise Builders and that of the Marriage Feast. Various sayings are collected from the Talmud, such as the golden rule, "Do unto others as ye would they should do unto you." "Love thy neighbour as thyself." "With the measure we mete we shall be measured again." "Let thy yea be just and thy nay be likewise just." "Whoso looketh upon the wife of another with a lustful eye is considered as if he had committed adultery." "Be of them that are persecuted, not of them that persecute." But as Deutsch has said, to assume that the Talmud borrowed these from the New Testament would be like assuming that Sanskrit sprang from Latin.

    The nature of the "Sayings" is acknowledged by Irenæus when he says, "According to no one Saying of the heretics is the word of God made flesh." That is the Sayings which were current among the Gnostics as Knowers. Marcion knew and quoted the Gnostic saying which was afterwards amplified and quoted in John's Gospel--"No one knew the father save the son, nor the son save the father, and he to whom he will reveal him." This is a Gnostic saying, and it involves the Gnostic doctrine which cannot be understood independently of the Gnosis. It is quoted as one of the sayings before it was reproduced in the Gospel according to John.

    Such sayings were the Oral teachings in all the mysteries ages before they were written down. Some of them are so ancient as to be the common property of several nations. Prescott gives a few Mexican sayings; one of these, also found in the Talmud and the New Testament, is called the "the old proverb." "As the old proverb says--'Whoso regards a woman with curiosity commits adultery with his eyes.'" And the third commandment according to Buddha is--"Commit no adultery, the law is broken by even looking at the wife of another man with lust in the mind." Amongst other sayings assigned to Buddha we find the one respecting the wheat and the tares.

    56

    Another is the parable of the sower. Buddha likewise told of the hidden treasure which may be laid up by a man and kept securely where a thief cannot break in and steal; the treasure that a man may carry away with him when he goes. The story of the rich young man who was commanded to sell all he had and give to the poor is told of Buddha.

    http://www.africawithin.com/massey/gml1_logia.htm
     
  2. cherryblossom

    cherryblossom Banned MEMBER

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    How is it possible to know how old an oral teaching is?
     
  3. Omowale Jabali

    Omowale Jabali The Cosmic Journeyman PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Good question. I used to argue the same point with my dad and am still trying to figure that out. If the teaching is connected to an ancestor then one can estimate the time period.
     
  4. cherryblossom

    cherryblossom Banned MEMBER

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    Well, of course, IF one can directly link the oral teaching/saying to an ancestor and knowing the age/history of that ancestor.

    But, within the article you provided, Gerald Massey says:

    How can he know how old oral teachings may be?

    How can he know if the teachings were ever preserved orally BEFORE they were written down?

    How can he identify them as "ANCIENT" or the "common property of several nations" if they were ORAL TEACHINGS?
     
  5. Omowale Jabali

    Omowale Jabali The Cosmic Journeyman PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Perhaps he is familiar with the Mishnah.
     
  6. cherryblossom

    cherryblossom Banned MEMBER

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    But, the Mishnah is a text of "oral teachings."

    So, how can Massey know how old some teachings were BEFORE they were written down?

    Massey says that this teachings were common "AGES" BEFORE they were written down.

    How can he know that they were "ANCIENT" even BEFORE they were written down?

     
  7. Omowale Jabali

    Omowale Jabali The Cosmic Journeyman PREMIUM MEMBER

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    From the etymology of the language and context in which these teachings were eventually recorded and as I have stated before in several threads he has done the same as others by referencing Josephus and manetho.
     
  8. cherryblossom

    cherryblossom Banned MEMBER

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    Was Massey a linguist?

    Even if so, how could he determine the "etymology" and AGE of some teachings by language/context BEFORE they were written down? According to Massey, they were "ORAL." So, how could he determine how old they were before there first written account?

    I imagine that would be impossible to ascertain with any maxim or proverb.

    ...like how old is the African Proverb, "If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go with others."

    Now, I've often heard this proverb to be African but I do not know which language/region/country it originates.

    How could even any indigenous African tell me how OLD this proverb is even BEFORE it was ever written down?

    If this proverb is an "ORAL TEACHING," then even by etymology and context, how could its AGE be determined?

    How could anyone possibly tell me that this ORAL proverb is "ANCIENT?"
     
  9. Omowale Jabali

    Omowale Jabali The Cosmic Journeyman PREMIUM MEMBER

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    As stated before, Josephus and manetho.
     
  10. Omowale Jabali

    Omowale Jabali The Cosmic Journeyman PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Titus Flavius Josephus (37 – c. A.D. 100),[2] also called Joseph ben Matityahu (Biblical Hebrew: יוסף בן מתתיהו, Yosef ben Matityahu),[3] was a 1st-century Romano-Jewish historian and hagiographer of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD and the First Jewish–Roman War, which resulted in the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
    He has been credited by many as recording some of the earliest history of Jesus Christ outside of the gospels [4]
    His most important works were The Jewish War (c. 75 AD) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94 AD).[5] The Jewish War recounts the Jewish revolt against Roman occupation (66–70). Antiquities of the Jews recounts the history of the world from a Jewish perspective for a Roman audience. These works provide valuable insight into 1st century Judaism and the background of Early Christianity.[5]

    Manetho (or Manethon, Greek: Μανέθων, Μανέθως) was an Egyptian historian and priest from Sebennytos (ancient Egyptian: Tjebnutjer) who lived during the Ptolemaic era, approximately during the 3rd century BC. Manetho wrote the Aegyptiaca (History of Egypt). His work is of great interest to Egyptologists, and is often used as evidence for the chronology of the reigns of pharaohs.
     
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