Black Spirituality Religion : THE BIBLE AND ASTROLOGY...

dadachango: said:
Brotha Aqil,

Thank you for pointing out the Bibilical references. It will serve for future study. I understand the Bible as I once was an Evangelical minister who secretly practiced astrology much to the chagrin of a few folks who found out and tried to really grill me. I used to teach Bible study and was shunned for my "blasphemous" tongue. "Blasphemous" only because I questioned the words I was reading. I am a lover of Truth, so I pursued the study of astrology anyway.
You're welcome, dadachango. Read my thread titled, "Astrology: The True Religion" for further edification and clarification. Here are the same scriptures you refer to recorded in the Contemporary English Version of the Holy Bible:

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 (Under the heading: "Don't Do Disgusting Things")

"Moses said to Israel:
Don't sacrifice your son or daughter. And don't try to use any kind of magic or witchcraft to tell fortunes or to cast spells or to talk with spirits of the dead. The LORD is disgusted with anyone who does these things, and that's why he will help you destroy the land. Never be guilty of doing any if these disgusting things!"

(Fortunetellers thought they could learn secrets or learn about the future by watching the flight of birds or looking at the livers of animals, or in many other ways.)

Isaiah 47:12-15 (Under the heading: "Babylon Will Fall")

"The LORD said: (speaking to the people of Babylon)
Keep using your magic powers and your charms as you have always done. Maybe - just maybe - you will frighten somebody! You have worn yourself out, asking for advice from those who study the stars and tell the future month after month. Go ask them how to be saved from what will happen. People who trust the stars are as helpless as straw in a flaming fire. No one can even cook food sitting by a fire that feeds only on straw. These are the fortunetellers you have done business with all of your life. But they do not know where they are going, and they can't save you."

Deuteronomy 4:19 (Under the primary heading: "Israel Must Obey God." The secondary heading reads: "Don't Worship Idols")

"Moses said to Israel:
And when you see the sun or moon or stars, don't be tempted to bow down and worship them. The LORD put them there for all other nations to worship."

Deuteronomy 17:2-5 (Under the heading: "Put To Death People Who Worship Idols")

Moses said to Israel:
The LORD your God is giving you towns to live in. But later, a man or a woman in your town may start worshiping other gods, or even the sun, moon or stars. I have warned younot to worship other gods, because whosoever worhips them is disobeying the LORD, and breaking the agreement He made with you. so when you hear that someone in your town is committing this disgusting sin, you must carefully find out if that person is really is guilty. But you need two or three witnesses - one witness isn't enough to prove a person guilty. Get rid of those who are guilty of such evil. Take them outside your town gates and have everyone stone them to death. But the witnesses must be the first to throw stones."

(Some people thought the sun, moon and stars were gods and worshiped them.)

Leviticus 20:6 (Under the heading: "Penalties for Disobeying God's Laws")

"The LORD told Moses to say to the people of Israel: 'I will be your enemy if you go to someone who claims to speak with the dead, and I will destroy you from amont my people.' "

Daniel 2:26-30 (Under the heading: "Daniel Interprets the Dream")

"The king asked Daniel, 'Can you tell me my dream and what it means?' Daniel answered: 'Your Majesty, not even the smartest person in all the world can do what you are demanding. But the God who rules from heaven can explain mysteries. And while you were sleeping, He showed you what will happen in the future. However, you must realize that these mysteries weren't expalined to me because I am smarter that everyone else. Instead, it was done so that you would understand what you have seen.' "

2 Chronicles 33:4-6 (Under the heading: "King Manasseh of Judah")

"In the temple, where only the LORD was supposed to be worshiped, Manasseh built altars for pagan gods and for the stars. He placed these altars in both courtyards of the temple, and even set up a stone image of a foreign god. Manasseh practiced magic and witchcraft; he asked fortunetellers for advice and sacrificed his own sons in Hinnom Valley. He did many other things, and made the LORD very angry."

Matthew 7:22-27 (Under the headings: "A Warning" and "Two Builders")

"On the day of judgment many will call me their LORD. They will say, 'We preached in your name and in your name we forced out demons and worked many miracles.' But I will tell them, 'I will have to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people.' " Anyone who hears and obeys these teachings of mine is like a wise person who built a house on solid rock. Rain poured down, rivers flooded, and winds beat against that house. But it did not fall, because it was built on solid rock. Anyone who hears my teachings and doesn't obey them is like a foolish person who built a house on sand. The rain poured down, the rivers flooded, and the winds blew and beat against that house. Finally it fell with a crash."

Luke 21:20-28 (Under the headings: "Jerusalem Will Be Destroyed" and "When the Son of Man Appears")

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by soldiers, you will know that it will soon be destroyed. If you are living in Judea at that time, run to the mountains. If you are in the city, leave it. And if you are out in the country, dpn't go back into the city. This time of punishment is what is written about in the Scriptures. It will be an awful time for women who are expecting babies or nursing young children! Everywhere in the land people will suffer horribly and be punished. Some of them will be killed by swords. Others will be carried off to foreign countries. Jerusalem will be overrun by foreign nations until their time comes to an end."

"When the Son of Man Appears"

"Strange things will happen to the sun, moon and stars. The nations on Earth will be afraid of the roaring sea and tides, and they won't know what to do. People will be so frightened that they will faint because of what is happening to the world. Every power in the sky will be shaken. Then the Son of Man will be seen, coming in a cloud with great power and glory. When all of this starts happening, stand up straight and be brave. You will soon be set free."

Acts 16:16-18 (Under the heading: "Paul and Silas Are Put in Jail")

"One day on our way to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl. She had a spirit in her that gave her the power to tell the future. By doing this she made a lot of money for her owners. The girl followed Paul and the rest of us and kept yelling, 'These men are servants of the Most High God! They are telling you how to be saved.' This went on for several days. Finally, Paul go so upset that he turned and said to the spirit, 'In the name of Jesus Christ, I order you to leave this girl alone.' At once the evil spirit left her. When the girl's owners realized that they had lost all chances for making more money, they grabbed Paul and Silas and dragged them into court. They told the officials, 'These Jews are upsetting our city! They are telling us to do things we Romans are not allowed to do.' "
 
POINT ONE OF TWO

Isaiah 47:12-15 (Under the heading: "Babylon Will Fall")

"The LORD said: (speaking to the people of Babylon)
Keep using your magic powers and your charms as you have always done. Maybe - just maybe - you will frighten somebody! You have worn yourself out, asking for advice from those who study the stars and tell the future month after month. Go ask them how to be saved from what will happen. People who trust the stars are as helpless as straw in a flaming fire. No one can even cook food sitting by a fire that feeds only on straw. These are the fortunetellers you have done business with all of your life. But they do not know where they are going, and they can't save you."

OK... so, this is still an argument AGAINST astrology.



Deuteronomy 17:2-5
"The LORD your God is giving you towns to live in. But later, a man or a woman in your town may start worshiping other gods, or even the sun, moon or stars. I have warned you not to worship other gods, because whosoever worhips them is disobeying the LORD, and breaking the agreement He made with you. so when you hear that someone in your town is committing this disgusting sin, you must carefully find out if that person is really is guilty. But you need two or three witnesses - one witness isn't enough to prove a person guilty. Get rid of those who are guilty of such evil. Take them outside your town gates and have everyone stone them to death. But the witnesses must be the first to throw stones."

Deuteronomy 17:2-7 (King James version)
"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, and hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you."

(Some people thought the sun, moon and stars were gods and worshiped them.)

On this same vein, anyone who follows these planetary bodies is basically doing just that... worshipping planets.


:: MY LOGICAL ARGUMENT AGAINST ASTROLOGY FROM A BIBLICAL/CHRISTIAN STANDPOINT ::
written by Hiáli Nahual-Quiñonez


First consider these definitions,


wor·ship ('wor-ship) noun (from Middle English, "worshipe"; before 12th Century):
worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being

.o0*0o.

wor·thy ('wor-[th]E) adjective (13th century) 1a: having worth or value:
ESTIMABLE <a worthy cause> 1b : HONORABLE, MERITORIOUS
<worthy candidates> 2: having sufficient worth or importance.

di·vine (de-'vIn) adjective (from Middle English, "divin"; 14th century; from Latin, "divinus",
from divus, "god")
: of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god

be·ing ('bE-ing) noun (14th century) 1 : the quality or state of having existence.
2 : something that actually exists.


- sources: Merriam-Webster dictionary



"worshipping a Divine Being" ... "the act of worthiness or reverence paid to something that actually exists that proceeds directly from 'God'"




1. God exists.
2. God authored our Universe and everything contained within it.

3. All things proceeding from God are "Divine".
4. Anything that is contained within our Universe is also said to have "existence".
5. Humans exist within our Universe.
6. The planets exist within our Universe.
7. If humans exist, then they are said "to be"... hence, "be-ings".
8. If the planets exist, then they are also said "to be"... hence, also "be-ings".
9. Since God is the author of humans, planets and all things that have "existence", then all these things are "Divine Beings".

10. The Bible is a series of books and documents inspired and written by prophets of God.
11. The Bible is a perfect book of laws and doctrines. It contains NO errors or contradictions.
12. Only prophets of God are able to lead "His" people.

13. Moses was a prophet of God.
14. The Book of Deuteronomy is a Book in the Bible.
15. Moses was considered to have written the Book of Deuteronomy.
16. The Book of Deuteronomy is, therefore, a perfect book of laws and doctrines that has the authority to lead the God's people.
17. Thus, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 is correct and perfect in every sense of its wording.

18. Astrology is the study of the movements of sun, stars, planets and other heavenly bodies in relation to us and to each other through the assignment of characteristic and angular values.
19. Giving value or sufficient importance to an object is considered giving "worthiness" to it.
20. Since the sun, stars, planets and other heavenly bodies are "Divine Beings", we are giving worthiness to them.
21. Therefore, we are "worshipping" the movements of the sun, planets and other heavenly bodies.
22. People who study astrology are called "astrologers".
23. So, all things considered, astrologers are ALSO worshipping the movements of sun, stars, planets and other heavenly bodies.

n.b. - All BOLDED text within my argument requires indoctrination of Christian beliefs in order to be considered a "truth".


Being that the Bible is a perfect book, means that no OTHER verses are necessary to validate this argument.
Any contradictory verses to this logical argument would dispel the Bible in its entirety.

If, however, you still want to consider the Bible to be "Perfect Truth",
then what contradicts is people's interpretation OF it.

In this case, only LOGICAL ARGUMENTS of PROVEN TRUTHS
can be used to avoid any misinterpretations.​


NO LOGIC = NO SENSE


"You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3)​




:yo:
 
I would just rather be a "Utilitarianist"... live and let live. Everyone should be allowed to do whatever makes them feel happy as long as they don't encroach on or take away the happiness of others. It takes all sorts to spin the world. I am not concerned with twisting someone's arm in order to follow my belief system. What works for you... works for you.

Astrology is still cool. I am definitely a fan of religious thought. From a Christian & Yoruba upbringing, I moved into Islam through the 5-percent Nation. I ended up back in Yoruba and now study Indigenous American. It's really all the same at some point. There is a common thread that runs through the spiritual mass consciousness. All religions share a different angle on Truth. No one can claim to be the TRUE one. People can sit there and claim to BE that, but I will be like :boring: One of the main issues of Religions of the Book is that they tend to, more often than not, enforce their doctrine on others when it should never have to resort to that. I am sure glad we have seperation of church and state. I don't tolerate "Bible Thumpers".

Like I said in another thread, I am a lover of Truth and think that organized religion often stops us from reaching the Truth. Reason being that using religious ideas, concepts and doctrines is like putting a face on the Universal... a mask which restricts and pigeonholes that which has no face. I don't mind sharing, but I would rather stay objective as much as I can.
 
dadachango said:
Re: Isaiah 47:12-15
OK...so, this is still an argument AGAINST astrology.
For the people of Babylon...certainly not for all time...

Aqil said:
(Some people thought the sun, moon and stars were gods and worshiped them.)
dadachango said:
On this same vein, anyone who follows these planetary bodies is basically doing just that...worshipping planets.
How do you "follow" a planet? How do you "worship" a planet?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. God exists. Yes.

2. God authored our Universe and everything contained within it. Yes.

3. All things proceeding from God are "Divine." No. Animals are not "divine."

4. Anything that is contained within our Universe is also said to have "existence." Living things have existence.

5. Humans exist within our Universe. Yes.

6. The planets exist within our Universe. Always have...always will...

7. If humans exist, then they are said "to be"... hence, "be-ings". Human beings do exist.

8. If the planets exist, then they are also said "to be"... hence, also "be-ings". The planets exist...not as "beings."

9. Since God is the author of humans, planets and all things that have "existence," then all these things are "Divine Beings." This is not a true statement.

10. The Bible is a series of books and documents inspired and written by prophets of God. Yes.

11. The Bible is a perfect book of laws and doctrines. It contains NO errors or contradictions. This is not a true statement.

12. Only prophets of God are able to lead "His" people. The prophets point the way to God. They lead in that way...

13. Moses was a prophet of God. Yes.

14. The Book of Deuteronomy is a Book in the Bible. Yes.

15. Moses was considered to have written the Book of Deuteronomy. Yes.

16. The Book of Deuteronomy is, therefore, a perfect book of laws and doctrines that has the authority to lead the God's people. No.

17. Thus, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 is correct and perfect in every sense of its wording. See above.

18. Astrology is the study of the movements of sun, stars, planets and other heavenly bodies in relation to us and to each other through the assignment of characteristic and angular values. Yes.

19. Giving value or sufficient importance to an object is considered giving "worthiness" to it. Humans are not "objects."

20. Since the sun, stars, planets and other heavenly bodies are "Divine Beings", we are giving worthiness to them. The celestial bodies in the Heavens are not "divine beings."

21. Therefore, we are "worshipping" the movements of the sun, planets and other heavenly bodies. No...we study them.

22. People who study astrology are called "astrologers." Yes.

23. So, all things considered, astrologers are ALSO worshipping the movements of sun, stars, planets and other heavenly bodies. All things considered, this is a false statement...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


dadachango said:
Being that the Bible is a perfect book, means that no OTHER verses are necessary to validate this argument.
The Bible is not a "perfect" book.

dadachango said:
Any contradictory verses to this logical argument would dispel the Bible in its entirety.
What you have proferred is not a logical argument.

dadachango said:
If, however, you still want to consider the Bible to be "Perfect Truth," then what contradicts is people's interpretation OF it.
Who considers the Bible to be "perfect truth"?

dadachango said:
In this case, only LOGICAL ARGUMENTS of PROVEN TRUTHS can be used to avoid any misinterpretations.
Which hasn't been the case thus far...

dadachango said:
NO LOGIC = NO SENSE
I agree.

dadachango said:
"You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3)
And that is an order...
 
dadachango said:
Astrology is the study of the movements of sun, stars, planets and other heavenly bodies in relation to us and to each other through the assignment of characteristic and angular values.
To further elucidate:

Astrology is the science of the relationships that bind the manifold parts of the Universe into one organic whole. It is also the art of interpreting the effects of these relationships upon the behavior of individuals and groups – or any entity whose origins can be traced to a point in time and space...

Astrology is a system that endeavors to classify and correlate the activities of all things according to the purpose they serve within a general scheme. The astrologer is more concerned with dynamic energies than with phenomenal appearances. To him an object is what it does; its meaning is determined by its operations...

Astrology is the study of cycles of growth whereby all sentient beings are born, develop, die, and are reborn. It analyzes patterns of unfoldment, thereby referring to living processes rather than to static structures...

Astrology is a discipline of thought based on a philosophy of synthesis. It elucidates the manner in which a multitude of separate, self-determining existences combine to manifest the essential unity of all being. Astrological principles can be applied to everything on Earth, because even the smallest atom reflects the grand design of creation, as each individual unit follows its own evolutionary pathway toward perfection.

A horoscope, or natal chart, is a map of the positions of the Sun, Moon and planets with reference to a specific location on Earth, at a specific moment of time. These celestial bodies are charted against the background of the ecliptic, or zodiac, so that one might describe the Moon as being in Aries, Mars in Capricorn, and so forth. Also important are the four cardinal points (i.e., angles) of the ecliptic, as defined by the degrees ascending over the horizon, culminating at the meridian – and their opposites – since these form the basis for the division of the horoscope into a subzodiac of 12 houses...

Basically, the horoscope shows the way in which an entity coming to birth at a particular intersection of time and space is oriented to the Universe. It is a picture of the solar system from the viewpoint of the individual, and, as such, it depicts his unique outlook on life. One could say that the angular relationships between the Earth and other celestial bodies represent his personal slant on things.

The horoscope can serve as a road guide indicating the kind of journey an individual will take through life. It does not show the actual terrain as much as it indicates areas of tension, crisis, and decision. Intersections, alternate routes, scenic highways and treacherous byways are all symbolically depicted. The horoscope suggests lessons to be learned, issues to be faced, challenges to be met, and problems to be solved. It is, however, only a map, and whether a person chooses to travel in good spirits – enjoying the adventure or to mope along miserably - is essentially his/her own choice.

The planets can be compared to the hands of an enormous clock in the Heavens - the clock being the zodiac. Human beings are biologically and psychologically constructed to function like small clocks on Earth. One cannot say, however, that the hands of the big clock reach down and push the hands of the little ones around. Rather, all are synchronized to register the same time. Humans and the solar system correspond to one another, not because of the domination exerted by the large upon the small, but by virtue of an innate affinity which makes them both part of the same creative plan.

Conceivably, cosmic energies actually flow through the signs and planets, as though the solar system were one vast dynamo of interrelated streams of energy. However, while the theory of electromagnetic fields may account for some aspects of astrology, it does not go far enough in explaining the modus operandi of the system as currently practiced. Radiatory impulses passing through space cannot justify the theory of symbolic progressions, the meanings ascribed to planets and houses, or the way the horoscope stamps an entire life with specific characteristics. One might as easily comprehend the phenomenon of human intelligence through a study of brain waves. Astrologers, like physicists, observe the effects of various influences without fully understanding the nature of the energies involved. They theorize “how” these energies operate, but the “why” remains mysterious.

Unfortunately, it is traditional to use the word “influence” to describe the correlation between planetary and mundane affairs. The term has become a semantic necessity because of the lack of words to describe the subtle relationship between microcosm and macrocosm. Few astrologers really presume that the planets somehow push people about. Instead, they believe that there is a pattern in life that most observers are too shortsighted to discern. Like ants scurrying about on a richly emblazoned oriental carpet, human beings are assailed by a jumble of changing sensations. However, by looking at the Heavens where the same basic pattern is spread out in its entirety, man can better understand how his small segment of experience fits into the larger design.

Most astrologers eventually develop an intuitive approach comparable to that used by doctors in diagnosing patients. They learn to synthesize many disparate observations, some of which apparently contradict others. Certain planetary aspects seem to retreat into the background while others stand out. A continued study of astrology refines his insight into human nature. A person cannot deal year after year with the intimate problems of men and women without becoming a discerning psychologist. A systematically cultivated intuitive approach does not bypass the facts of the horoscope, but evolves out of the ability to synthesize a multitude of details. Astral logic then becomes ordinary logic raised to a higher level.

The relationship of astrology to astronomy is analogous to the relationship of psychology to physiology. Astrology concerns the mind and soul as well as the phenomenal appearance of the celestial spheres. Many astrologers believe that the celestial bodies are just that – the physical vehicles of exalted beings, much as the human body is the outer garment of a higher consciousness.

A person can say of a friend: “He is 65% oxygen, 18% carbon, and 10%. hydrogen, with smaller quantities of calcium and phosphorous”...he can also specify his friend’s weight, height, heartbeat and blood pressure, and describe the manner in which his vital organs generally function. In all, he would have an indisputably factual analysis, but it would reveal nothing of any real significance about his friend. As the great mystic Zolar said:

“Astrology and astronomy go hand in glove. Astronomy is the external, lifeless glove; astrology is the living hand within.”
 

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