Black Parenting : spare the rod?

Discussion in 'Black Parenting' started by Alkebulan, Sep 12, 2002.

  1. Alkebulan

    Alkebulan Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    my background is n science &, i m a big believer n the emperical method of obtaining reliable information, when feasable & practical. the following is offered primarily as an observation, a possible option that u may wish 2 explore & is not meant 2 criticize anyone s particular method of child rearing, o k? i confess, i m not a big believer n corporal punishment.

    corporal (physical pain) punishment has repeatedly been documented as 1 of the least effective methods of regulating behavior or implementing lasting behavior modification. while u (& i m using the generic u here) may not agree w these findings, i defy anyone 2 produce a university or independant credible research abstract thats been published, that demonstrates its effectiveness over other techniques. n every research paper i ve read that dealt w this, corporal punishment was more effective than only ONE other option: doing nothing.

    most parents could benefit immensly from attending a class or studying a mannual on operant conditioning. this is really just a fancy term for: reward. the major operating principle behind op con is this: behavior that ultimately produces reenforcement (or reward) is more likely 2 b repeated than behavior that doesen t. humans r above all else pleasure seeking organisms. now, u hv 2 read that statement carefully 2 get the picture, it says, above all else. the urge 2 avoid punishment or pain is second on the hierarchy. but that gap is significant because what that means is that f something provides sufficient pleasure, & f that postulate is correct, humans, yes, even little humans, will suffer pain n order 2 get 2 a reward. does this ever happen n real life? yes, it happens all the time, u just hv 2 know how 2 recognize it.

    bringing the messege a little closer 2 the topic at hand, what that means is this: u can produce greater changes & longer lasting behavior modification of children, dogs, cats, dolphins, & yes, even rats & men, by REWARDING them when they do good than u can by punishing them when they do bad. this is really a simple & cosmicly beutiful principle of life, but 1 that parents find difficult/impossible 2 accept. one of the major problems w it is that it flys n the face of how they, the parents, were brought up. 'my daddy (mama) spanked me (us) when we misbehaved, & c how well we turned out?' yeah, well, some of our parents also: grew up w/o indoor plumbing (go 2 the outhouse), watched a 14" b&w tv, f they had one at all, & drove a car that had a top speed of 50 mph, f they had one. i don t c anyone trying 2 hold onto those.
    i ve also had black parents tell me that this sounds like some white mumbo jumbo, or something that white households would practise, at which point i usu ask them f they think that we, black parents, should hv any less regard 4 the feelings of our children than they, white parents, do? it is simply a technique, an option, & it can b any color u want it 2 b.

    another problem is that its implementation requires a totally different mindset 2 administering dicipline. parents today, as a general rule, all 2 frequently ignore good behavior. but let something bad happen & the child becomes the center of attention. therein lay the paradox. every child craves attention. so, this type of pattern sets up a scenario where, under some circumstances, a child will intentionally misbehave b/c any attention, even negative attention, is better than being ignored. w operant conditioning u must gradually change the platform. good behavior must b attended 2 & rewarded & it is misbehavior that should b ignored.


    now, admittedly, watching 11 yo jimmy back the caddy out of the driveway n a downpour, during rush hour, while ur husband is laying underneath it, changing the oil, as u spot a highway patrol cruser coming around the corner will surely test ur resolve...... o k, just kidding. as w all dicipline methods there r limitations & exceptions. not all errant behavior can b ignored & some clearly shouldn t b. but the soundness of the principle remains. and although it should go w/o saying, i must add that the reward must b something the child perceives as a reward. rewarding jimmys good report card by allowing him the 'priviledge' of scraping off the encrustations on aunt patty s bunions is prob much more of a reward 4 her & unlikely 2 produce the desired effect n him.

    as u can c, this method does require a heavy time investment & is much less 'handy' than the nearest belt, but unlike the belt: it doesen t leave welts or bruises, u can t b arrested 4 it, it doesen t teach violence as a solution, it can b performed anytime, anywhere w/o embarassment 2 u or the child, and it is user & recipient friendly. there r an infinite # of ways the program can b set up. i know 2 parents that use the star method. good behavior is rewarded by placing a magnetized star (or whatever) on a level of the fridge that can b seen but not reached by the children. accumulated stars can b traded n 4 any variety of 'goodies'. there r even different sized stars that indicate different magnitudes of reward. misbehavior usu results n not getting a star. really egregious behavior can result n the removal of a star (u d b amazed at the pain & heartbreak this engenders).

    does this system always work? no, but n 98% of the cases where it doesen t, the problem is at the implementation (i.e. parents) level, not at the childs. remember that phrase that u ve seen around that says, there s no such thing as illegitimate children, only illegitimate parents? well, i can almost say the same thing when it comes 2 behavior & dicipline. there r actually hardly any bad children at all n the world, but there is an abundance of bad parenting & poor diciplinarians.
     
  2. ZeroGravity

    ZeroGravity Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    2 doctor parker

    2 each their own doctor parker. no ones knows a child better than their parents and no "system" by itself is 100% effective. belts have worked in the past and will in the future, that decision is left up to the parent(s). Spanking or not spanking a child does not make that parent bad or good. There are a lot of other factors that will ultimately determine that.
     
  3. $$RICH$$

    $$RICH$$ Lyon King Admin. STAFF

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    i have to agree wit keme on dis coz it show in many studies
    that true parents best to know one's child
     
  4. Alkebulan

    Alkebulan Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    this applies 2 the statements made, & is not intended as a personal attack on any1

    emperical n the scientific community is generally meant 2 b information obtained thru rigorously controlled conditions, which can b scrutinized & replicated by other scientists 4 verification purposes. the 'emperical evidence' refered 2 here is actually anecdotal evidence. amoung the established methods of gathering scientifically credible information: experimental method; correlational study; cross sectional or longitudinal study; case study method; or, anecdotal study; anecdotal is considered the weakest & least reliable.

    "All of a sudden a group of wimps put out some specious studies and we go away from it"

    since piaget & skinner began investigation of dicipline & its effects on children in the late 1950's, over 40 yrs ago, n what way is this, 'all of a sudden'?

    i hv seen statements like this b4, which basically uses name calling to describe a group of ppl, (wimps), n most instances, none of whom r actually known by the author, & contemptable dismissal of an entire body of knowledge, again, n most instances, none of which has even been read, let alone critically reviewed, by the author. of course there has never been any requirement that individuals actually know some1 or a group n order 2 demean them, nor is it a requirement that material produced by that group actually b read, studied, and analized b4 calling it: irrelevent, poorly designed, biased, skeewed, or 'specious' or any of a host of other comments intended 2 nullify it. a carefully crafted research design & experiment can, & has taken decades, not 2 mention the education & training that qualified them, & can make or break the careers of the experimenter. calling the results crap takes about 10 seconds.

    u don t hv 2 b able 2 carefully design & implement any research, or even understand what constitutes an acceptable paradigm n a given field to trash or belittle some1 else s efforts. i would b interested 2 know exactly at which portion, page # & paragraph of ANY research study, that study became 'specious'. or, perhaps, they ALL became 'specious' as a group at some point. i wonder f that point can b demonstrated 2 the rest of us n some way?

    "I submit that the rise in teenage crime, lower test scores and drug us is directly attributable to the elimination of corporal punishment."

    it is perhaps ironic that the only credible way of testing this 'theory' would b thru the very type of research which the author has already dismissed. i don t know that there is agreement, even on this messege board, that there has been any 'elimination' of corporal punishment. f anything, quite the contrary. additionally, the likelihood of even ONE of the conditions mentioned, even f demonstrated 2 b accurate (increased teen crime & drug use, decreased test scores; f i am reading that correctly) could b attributed 2 a single, isolateable cause, is both far fetched & suppositional at best. it seems much more likely that, as w most behaviors, there r multivariant complex interactions occuring, probably simultaneously, or nearly so.

    "Moreover, intimidation and the swift certainty of punishment has always been an effective deterent to mayhem."

    that may b tru, but that doesen t mean that there aren t negative consequences associated w it, or, that it is the most desireable or most permanent method of obtaining behavior modification. the oldest recognized model isn t necesarrily best, simply b/c its been around longer, any more than a newer method is better simply b/c of its youth.

    You were spanked and you turned out ok. Isnt that the best emperical evidence?

    u don t know f i was or not, & u certainly don t know f i turned out o k, lol. no, not only isn t it the best emperical evidence, its not even the worst emperical evidence, b/c it isn t emperical evidence at all. i honestly don t get the logic behind, f u do this, i will hurt u.

    n general: n closeing let me say this: we seek information & enlightenment b/c of what it helps us 2 understand & explains, not on the basis of the exceptions it doesen t. f we were 2 hold as our standard that our scientific principles MUST explain a phenomenon or behavior n 100% of cases, we will b left confused & disoriented n our attempt 2 understand our world & esp the people that inhabit it. the 'f it ain t broke, don t fix it' adage, does hv its limitations. the benefit of research & new information or knowledge is out there & availible 4 those that wish 2 avail themselves of it. doing something n a more beneficial manner is rarly mandatory.

    i d like 2 thank every1 who took the time 2 respond 2 this thread.

    :)
     
  5. Mike Ramey

    Mike Ramey Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Sometimes I wonder...

    One of the beauties of science is how it tries to put items in a test tube, instead of in the open. Dr. Spock himself, before he died, KNEW that he had made a mess of things with his 'expert' advice.

    Got to go with Kem on this one Doc. I'm in Juvenile Corrections. Parents that do not discipline their kids; parents who don't use the rod, will ultimately have to have their child disciplined by either the cops, the courts, the jury, or the corrections officer in a juvenile/adult jail.

    If the parent or parents won't take time to 'beat that butt', then someone out in the street is going to! That's the facts, Jack!

    Here's something else...if the parent/parents WON'T discipline, then they are abdicating their responsibility. When a child joins a gang, the first thing they do, as a part of initiation is either a) beat you in, or b) beat you to keep you in line! Those are the cold, hard facts of life.

    If the parent WON'T do...then someone else will.

    We see the evidence of this, every night, on the six o'clock news.

    Mike Ramey
     
  6. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    Hello Doc ... Everyone,

    There is no one method of "discipline" that will work across the board for every child. Every child is different. While spanking, beating, using corporal punishment (or even the threat of it) works for some children, it may do absolutely nothing for another! I'm sure there are many parents frustrated and at their wits end, challenged by the child that they've beat, bribed, talked to, reasoned with, bargained with ... and still they won't be obedient! My heart goes out to yall. If you find yourself in a situation such as this, as the parent, you really must increase your resources, determination and wherewithal to help your baby become a responsible adult ... it's your job ... and if you don't, you've failed ... not only society, but more importantly, you've failed your child (giving them only the skills to do the same, with their children).

    I have spanked my children. I was spanked. I can count on one hand the times I've had to spank my daughter. Now my son, I can't count, but I think that may be because I was younger and less experienced at parenting (my first born). Time passed and soon my beatings made no impact whatsoever. He was about 13 or 14 years old, and after I couldn't lift my arm one more time (because it was too tired) ... I told him to get up and he got up ... laughing! Of course, that only angered me and I made him take a few more licks "just because."

    It was at this point that I realized spanking (beating) him is no longer a viable way for me to get him to cooperate and be obedient to me (and those who have authority over him). It only works for so long and if you've not instilled a sense of honor, decency, respect and consideration in your children ... for your wishes and the things that are right and proper ... long before they become teens ... no amount of beating will help.

    Even though spankings didn't work with him anymore, my job as a parent, having control of him and his life, responsible for keeping him on the straight and narrow, never arrested, never locked up, educated, etc., still had to be done. How would I do it if beating him meant nothing?! I had to hope that he loved me and did not want to disappoint me. I had to appeal to his heart (and mind) and not his behind. I had to teach him to trust me, trust my guidance, trust my decisions, believe that I had his best interest at heart. I asked him to trust me, go with me, give me until he was 18 ... and he would be free to do all that he pleased, without regard to what I may want.

    That's what he did.

    There is no single, proven way to insure that every child will be all that we want them to be. Each child is different and it is the parent's ultimate responsibility to recognize what works and doesn't work for each of their children individually ... and adjust accordingly.

    :heart:

    Destee
     
  7. Mike Ramey

    Mike Ramey Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    It's true...whatever works for the parents...

    Hey Fam! If you put the fear of you and God into them at three, by the time they hit 13--and the hormones start to kick in--they'll remember that the parent(s) are still BOSS!

    They may try you...but they'll know that they can't run over you.

    Mike Ramey
     
  8. UbZoRbShUn

    UbZoRbShUn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I agree

    with you Mike. You gotta get em when they young and put the fear of GOD in em... If you wait until a child gets of age and that could be at the age of 2 then you have a battle on your hands. I mean it kills me that people actually let their children dictate to them what they will and will not do.

    I'm from the ol skool. I beat ***** when ***** need beatin. I'm not talking about breakin arms and drawing blood or anything. Children are very intelligent and at a young age they start the process of how far can I actually push my momma and daddy before they go upside my head.

    My husband and I have two sons ages 7 and 9. Our boys know what we will and will not tolerate. True they test me more because they think I'm a pushova. Huh....

    I can tell you all for a fact that I will neva say " O shae do you want a time out or Stephon please behave for mommy" ...:eek: Our boys know for a fact that their mother and father will cut up on them where ever they cut up be it church, parking lot or mall. If they wanna act a fool then we will act right along with em.

    I'm not saying we beat em for every thing. Nawl.... see when they do stuff like not clean the room, or take the trash out, or have the homework done and on the living room table to be checked then we hit em up for the PS2, or tell them they have to stay in the house for a week or if we really want to get em we don't let them play in the following baseball game.

    Parents have to know what will and will not work. My 9 year old hates to get whippins and my 7 year old hates to have the PS2 taken. Don't get me wrong they aren't angels by a long shot but they ain't crazy either.

    Now if they at school fighting or disrespecting their teachers then that constitutes an *** whippin. If they outside just cussin and actin like some hoodz then that's an *** whippin. If one of em is in a fight and the other one don't help out...*** whippin. If I have to tell em more than twice... yeah they may not have heard me the first time but I know for a fact they heard the second time...*** whippin and if they eva disrespect me or their father…*** whippin.

    They know right from wrong and what you will and will not do. You have to let them know who’s boss. I tell mine when you start paying bills in our house then you have an opinion until then you do what we tell you to do. Tough love yall. My boys aren’t scared of us. They talk to us and they know we love them because we tell them and they know that everything we do is for the benefit of them in the long run.
     
  9. DIIMOND

    DIIMOND Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I am a Christian and The Bible is my final authority on every subject. It is the Word of God Himself....
    And God says that to spare the rod is to spoil the child...
    He said in Proverbs that physical discipline will save their lives... He did not say to abuse them, but doing nothing and not applying the rod is abuse because you are the parent they are the child you know better. You know what is right...
    The Bible also says... train up a child in the way that he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it..
    If u train up that child right from birth and teach the youngster based on the Word of Truth, then u will less likely have to use physical punishment often... but it is needed..
    The world always has a different way for doing things than God's way, and that's why there children turn out bad ways and they wonder why...
    Now I am not saying that every parent does not know how to raise their children properly, but I am saying that the parent that does not do what God says concerning their children are doing more harm than good.
    Sometimes talking isn't enough,,, time out... or yellin...( I personally think that yelling and screaming is emotional and mental abuse)...
    bottom line.... children should be disciplined...even God disiplines His children because He loves them and knows what is best for them... and we should follow His example... after all.... He is GOD!!!!
     
  10. phynxofkemet

    phynxofkemet Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    As a soon to be, first time parent, I have been a long time believer that corporal punishment, spanking is not a form of discipline but a re-action of frustration and anger from the adults. I'd first like to espouse only my opinion, and then offer data from other sources. I was spanked two or three times as a child. It was humiliating and scary. I remembered it and the anger I felt towards my mother who inflicted it. I remain closer to my father to this day, and feel a deeper sense of trust and confidence with him. In part
    due to his patience. Just my experience. Secondly, I find it most interesting that we make laws to protect one another from bodily harm, and physical assault but would somehow condone and justify violating the physical safety of a child. It just makes no logical sense. Strike another adult and go to court, strike a child and call it discipline? Hmmm. Alright. Is it possible that before the onset of slavery which beat numerous conditions into our heads that child spanking and physical discipline were not incorporated by our respective cultures? I suggest this after viewing anthropological evidence of ancient Black cultures from Polynesia, Australia, and parts of Africa.
    During slavery our very lives depended on submission to the Caucasian, and if you read the Willie Lynch manifesto, it suggests that mothers were conditioned to breed physically strong males who would be mentally weak, and girls who would isolate themselves and depend on the Caucasian male. This of course was done through violence both mental and physical.

    I believe there are parts of scripture that indulge a husband's right to discipline his wife too, but anyone with good sense can recognize this abuse. Where there is trust and intimacy how can there be room for fear? And when your son or daughter decides to exact justice for themselves upon other children or peers will they have the tools to do this peacefully or will the resort to becoming physical just as their parents have done with them, thereby leaving them at the mercy of the criminal justice system.

    There is a global report on ending violence against children available at this link:
    www.nospank.net/globalreport.pdf
    Supporters such as Desmond Tutu point out that "there can be no compromise in challenging violence against children. Children's uniqueness, their vulnerability, their dependence on adults makes it imperative that they have more, not less protection from violence"

    There was an amazing study done in 1977 titled the Origins of Peace and Violence which contrasts peaceful Aboriginal / original tribes with the modern Western cultures. The largest contrasts between our societies are the advocates of sexual and physical pleasure over the repression or exploitation of sexuality and the promotion of physical pain over affection.
    The results I believe speak for themselves. If you'd like to see the studies done they are available online at
    rechten.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/FILES/departments/Algemeen/overigepublicaties/2005enouder/PEACE3/PEACE3.pdf[/SIZE]


    The Divine Mind would never rationalize the instilling of fear and the breaking of trust between a parent and child - no matter what the act. And for those who would brag about just how bad the child is, let it be a reminder that the apple falls not far from the tree, the child is in fact a physical embodiment of the parental traits!

    Have any of these Christian Bible thumpers taken a course in human physiology and actually passed? Because if you have you would know the frailty within your child's physical structure before they have completed the passage into young adulthood! It is so easy to damage small bones that have not completely fused, such as the coccyx (tailbone), and to tilt the sacrum pelvic area from impact that will result in lower back pain and future difficulties. Not to mention those brutal enough to employ a tool, weapon or whatever may be laying around! Mentally, the actual stress of enduring physical pain by a trusted care-keeper is confusing in the least and leaves more than subtle sub-conscious impressions for later on in life - including an inability to stand up for their beliefs and to not follow the crowd.

    If a child is hyperactive, unable to concentrate or listen, has difficulty carrying out directions or is just plain rebellious there are a plethora of options available to a rational thinking adult. The child's diet may need changing, the "structure" provided within the home may be inadequate and the amount of positive attention may need to increase - which I'm sure is most difficult in lower socio economic conditions to meet, but does not justify the de-evolution of our selves to the prescribed justice of the White Man's Bible - which is why it's called a "King James Version" a version of the truth muddled with just enough evil to keep ya trapped.

    That's my rant.... thanks for reading
    Hotep
     
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