Black Spirituality Religion : Revelation 13: The beast to 666

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by willa, Aug 30, 2017.

  1. willa

    willa Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I'm following along dear Chevron Dove, and using scripture as an evidence for this discussion. I also consider this a study. I love studies. So here goes. My purpose is to demonstrate through scripture that those cast out of heaven can not have bodies. Also, there is no one born evil. That happens through choices made in the flesh.

    Revelation 12: starting at vs. 7.
    There was a war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought (those who the Arc Angel Michael was presiding as commander over) against the great dragon, Satan. And the dragon fought and his angels (fallen spirits).

    The dragon and his angels prevailed not; neither was there place found any more in heaven because Satan was cast out of heaven to the earth, and his army of angels (spirits) was cast out with him.

    Revelation 12: 1 -2 is speaking of the birth of Jesus Christ, and the woman is His church with all the authority of Heavenly Father for the Church of Jesus Christ.

    Vs. 3 - 4
    Heavenly Father has his angels. So does Satan have his "angels". The term "angel" is used for beings of spirit. Spirits are also the disembodied evil beings, cast out of heaven to the earth along with "the great dragon" now called Satan.

    The great red dragon "...and his tail drew ( he took with him his followers which were 1/3 of the stars (fallen children of God) of heaven). Those would be the ones who were convinced Satan would offer more to them than the first born and Lord Jesus Christ. Satan wanted to take Christ's place and exalt himself even above the Father.

    Isaiah 14: 12 - 14
    "How art thou fallen from heaven O Lucifer, son of morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars (spirit children) of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north (the royal children side). I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be the most High."

    Yet he will be taken down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Vs. 15

    Satan does not have a body, nor any of the spirits with him. A being of body cannot possess the bodies of others. There has been in scripture a legion of evil spirits cast out from one person -- 2000. Our bodies are blessed temples of God. They are not given to evil spirits. And it is too bad to see what some people do to their bodies. Satan tries to destroy us including our bodies how ever he can.

    There are messengers from heaven who have bodies of flesh and bone like the Savior said he had. Not flesh and blood, being mortal. If any of these came to tell us something, we would call them an angel, being heavenly. It would be appropriate.

    Don't forget that while we do not see with our eyes a devil or his minions of the 1/3 cast out from heaven to the earth, The Lord does see them all. Every time.

    The Son of God was born into the body of Christ through Mary. He died on the cross. And he was Risen -- Resurrected. We have the great unconditional gift of being resurrected because of the Atonement. But we will be resurrected to the degree we were willing good, or bad.

    I want to respond to all that you have said. This will do for the moment.
    I do find your topics interesting.
     
  2. willa

    willa Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Okay, I want to give some reply to these topics. When speaking of the 2/3rds of the children of God we must not count by the number of people on earth this day, but the number of people who have been born to the earth since Adam and Eve through the generations up to today and into our future on this earth. Now compare that mammoth number to the 1/3rd who fell and were cast out to the earth ALL at once. That will demonstrate the constant barrage of the effort that is given to throw us off our course for the Kingdom of God, and how easy it is for those who don't care and aren't interested in finding our Lord and gaining knowledge about our Heavenly Father will fall from their crown. That is the work and the goal of Satan and his 1/3rd, to gather as many of us he can into his own kingdom. He wants to build his evil kingdom.

    So, we fall in degrees, and in degrees we will be rewarded or have a loss of spiritual knowledge and reward.
    I will continue later today.
     
  3. willa

    willa Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I guess I will start with SEED. Thanks for giving your thoughts. You have put a lot of effort and consideration in to it. So I in turn will bring forth points that I view as evidence. First, you are using scripture of the Bible to make your case. That is excellent. Because, the Bible is a record of the divinity of Christ. It is a record of the creation of the world and the people on it right from the "beginning." By the way, the earth is older than what science says, because it is made up of the dust and elements of space -- innumerable for a time line.

    It also states that Jesus was BORN of Mary. Three Kings who had the witness of angels traveled from far to become three witnesses of the baby LORD being born in a manger. Jesus was the son of a chosen young woman counted as worthy right from within the halls of heaven. She was pre ordained to be his mother. Being born of a mortal woman, the Lord was able to give his life. Being the Son of GOD, through the power of the Holy Spirit, no one, the scriptures say, could take his life. So he of choice allowed himself to beaten, crucified, speared in his side and die in the body upon the cross. After three days he was resurrected back to a perfect body, having no more mortality.

    Now back to the Garden of Eden. The tree that God warned Adam and Eve, "Don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden; for in the day that you do, you will surely die. Note: Peter told us a day to God is a thousand years. And within a thousand years they did die, having become fallen to being mortal. The tree was The Tree of Knowledge of Good and EVIL, therefore within it's branches was Satan who had possessed the body of a serpent, now known as a snake, having been cursed to lose his legs and crawl upon his belly, as a record that he actually climbed that tree where evil possessed him. Every where else in the garden that would not have happened. So, Satan, being a spirit used the serpent to talk to Eve from.

    There are two things that occur, one is the fact that there are two kinds of bodies, spirit, can't be seen by physical eyes normally; and, physical-mortal bodies. And as we see in life, there are evil people and good people all being babies at one time. The second, there is spiritual -- holy spirit beings of GOD and then evil spirits beings who originate with Satan having been cast out of heaven.

    Therefore there is Spiritual SEED. Those who follow Christ seeking to become like Him, putting on His IMAGE of what He did and taught, putting on the name of Christ through their loyalty and behavior, being a Christian, or being good people not knowing if there is Christ, these people will become his SEED when they accept Christ. These are Spiritually begotten to be raised to their Exaltation at the day of Judgement.

    Likewise Satan has his Seed by people putting on his image by the evil things they do.

    I'll be back with more reply regarding different flesh and different glories...
     
  4. Chevron Dove

    Chevron Dove Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    can you provide a scripture to support what you say.

    Concerning the 6000 years of human history of the modern man, is there anywhere in the Bible that give a count? I do recall a scripture during the time of David, in which, numbering was addressed at that point as negative. When David did so, he was called on it.

    But yes, 1/3rd is the fraction for the number of angels that fell, however, where are you getting 2/3rds in scripture?
     
  5. Chevron Dove

    Chevron Dove Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Thank you.

    Willa, the scriptures I've provided, however, stand for themselves. The scriptures and the very presence of Jesus, means that 'celestial' seed is given a body.

    to add to the other scriptures, I provided, the Bible details Joshua, meeting the angel, arch angel standing in the tree, a myrtle tree. And;

    In the account of Sodom and Gomorra, the angel was with Lot and also, Lot had to close his door to deal with the aggression of the men, who pursued the angels.

    The Bible is redundant with 'celestial beings' having bodies.

    but most revealing is GENESIS 3:15; THE SEED OF THE SERPENT which confirms the GOSPEL in that 'every seed is given a body'. There is NO stipulation to whether the seed is good or evil.

    In the BOOK OF JOB, the scriptures say that SATAN would go to and fro in the earth and that he would WALK UP AND DOWN! Satan has a body, based on the scriptures:


    [6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present
    themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    [7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou?
    Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro
    in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Job 1:6-7.



    [38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him,
    and to every seed his own body....
    [44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
    There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    1 CORINTHIANS 15:38, 41.
     
  6. Chevron Dove

    Chevron Dove Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    yes, I absolutely agree with you on becoming 'his SEED' meaning Christ in spirit.

    But your understanding of the Original Sin as is scripted in the Bible is not complete in regards to the Bible description of 'the serpent'. The Bible confirms this scripture with the scriptures of your very THREAD TOPIC in the Book of REVELATIONS. He is being correlated to the Number 666, and the Beast, and the Image of the Beast and etc. in relation to A MAN.

    The scriptures don't say that Satan possessed the body of the Serpent, it says that he was DISGUISED as the serpent, therefore, Satan is referred to as 'the Serpent'. Satan DISGUISED himself as a serpent for a very, very, very, important reason. He DISGUISED HIMSELF to Eve.

    Because Satan used this Serpent Bird to disguise himself, the scriptures say that the Creator MARKED that particular bird, and therefore today, it is not as a serpent bird, but a snake that crawls on the ground, and has no feathers.

    I also agree with you about Jesus being born of Mary, but also the scriptures say that the HOLY CONCEPTION occurred as such that the spirit of the LORD came over her and then she conceived. So the holy CELESTIAL SEED, JESUS, the son of the living GOD was given an earthly body that also correlates to Mary.

    And I think it is very much apart of this topic when you referred to the 'three wisemen' [ie. more than three] who journeyed to see the Christ child, and many people confuse the other account though, of the Shepherds, of which the angel met and showed them the glory of the lord at the time of the birth. The wisemen [ie. kings] journeyed later after the birth of the Child, they came to see 'the young child' which means that this was two distinct happenings; the wisemen and their caravan journey versus the shepherds in the field watching their flock.

    Thank you for responding.
     
  7. willa

    willa Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Hello Chevron Dove, I appreciate our discussion. You asked if I can support the 2/3 number from the scriptures and I do numerically. If 1/3 of the spirit children of Heavenly Father fell choosing to follow Lucifer, who once was a glorious spirit child of Heavenly Father, so named "Son of Morning" and all the 1/3 were cast out of heaven with him, then the rest of us, the spirit children of GOD who did not betray our Father in Heaven are the remaining 2/3rds. Isaiah 14: 12.

    I think I see a difference of scripture. Mine is King James Version and does not have an influence for interpretation of words or concepts of scriptures in the KJV. It was written for the very purpose to have a better language translation of Greek and Hebrew done word by word than other versions. You said that Satan was "disguised as the serpent". My scriptures do not use the word "Disguised".

    So now I think we need to look at that word "disguise". A person with a physical body could not disguise himself as a snake. But he could disguise himself, if he is an evil spirit by possessing the body of the snake which evil spirits do if given an evil opportunity. When evil spirits possessed the pigs bodies because the Lord gave it for a teaching moment, the pigs ran themselves into the sea.

    Matt. 8: 28
    The Lord in his travels, met two men "possessed with devils". The Lord decided to cast the evil spirits out of them. The devils besought him saying "If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine." The Lord said, "Go." And when the devils were come out, they went into the herd of swine, "and behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently ... into the sea and perished in the waters."

    The two men did not hold captive the devils, the devils possessed the two men. The two men did not hold captive a herd of swine, possessing them, there where shepherds there protecting them from thieves and predators, that would stop them. The devils entered the swine and possessed the pigs. Only evil spirits would possess a body because they haven't got one. These would rather have a pig's body than no body to dwell in, which again tells us how important our bodies are and who we are being born to bodies. Also there were a large number of evil spirits with in those two men. So many as could enter a whole herd of swine.

    I will continue, you have mentioned more points.
     
  8. Chevron Dove

    Chevron Dove Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Yes, I use the KJV as my primary source!--So as not so be portray myself as a supremacist who must always be correct in my research, let me quickly say, that I am wrong in the word, DISGUISE, rather the word used in the KJV is BEGUILE in reference to the Serpent in Genesis Chapter 3. I only know in part, and this part of the Bible, I have done a lot of research. The Serpent, Satan, is also defined by the word DECIEVE, in other scriptures. However, all three of these terms, 'BEGUILE', 'DECEIVE' and 'disguise' do correlate to how Satan is defined.

    He, the Serpent, went from being one aspect to CRAWLING on his belly. In the book of JOB, he is defined as WALKING through earth. Therefore, these scriptures and so much more reveal that Satan was correlated to THE SERPENT, but he still WALKED, later in time. And your scripture reference, ISAIAH 14;12, does not say anything about 2/3rds:

    [12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,
    son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the
    ground, which didst weaken the nations! ISAIAH 14:12

    So, as the scriptures do say that 1/3rd fell from heaven, however, you keep saying that the rest of the beings in heaven, the 2/3rds also fell and are now on the earth too. So all of the heavenly beings are now on earth, in your understanding? Or am I misunderstanding you.

    And I do understand you in that you believe that a person with a physical body could not disguise himself 'as a serpent' or snake, but I disagree; we are actually coming upon Halloween, a holiday in which people are going to be DISGUISHING THEMSELVES IN MANY WAYS.

    So can you explain, in your understanding, how it is that SATAN WALKS if he was a serpent that crawled upon his belly?
     
  9. willa

    willa Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Good morning Chevron Dove. :) I am somewhat worried. I would rather keep you as a dear friend, than create anger through the discussion of scriptures. I can discuss scriptures continually and politics, but Mom told me not to because people don't like it.

    I respect what you say, therefore I'm going to answer your honest question with true loving intent, not an attitude of being a scriptural supremacist. I've never ever thought of it as that way.

    But because I appreciate your kindness and goodness, which is very special about you, I answer your question and afterwards then ask, should we acknowledge our scriptural understanding differences, hug and go on our way to other things we can agree with each other on which I'm sure are massive amounts?
    -----------------------------

    So to begin: Are there spirits? The understanding of the scriptures I read tell us it is who we are and the body is a physical covering to those of us who are born. 2/3

    "There is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the almighty giveth them (mankind) understanding." That is why prayer is so important. Job 32: 8-9.
    (Jesus raised Jairus' daughter from the dead.) "And her spirit came again and she arose straightaway;" Luke 8:8 41-56.
    "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" Acts 7:59
    "And the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Eccl. 12: 7.
    "The body without the spirit is dead." James 2: 26 (Therefore when God formed Adam and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, it was the moment of placing Adam who is spirit to begin with into his body.)
    "The God of the spirits of all flesh," Num. 16:22.
    "Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live." Heb.12: 9. (God is not the Father of breaths.)

    For man is spirit to begin with. He has a spirit body which has refined elements that are eternal. The physical body when resurrected being united with the spirit, who is man, has a fullness of Eternal joy.

    Everything is spirit first in heaven. "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. So all life of earth were first spirit beings in heaven before being placed into the physical likeness of it's spirit upon the earth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  10. Chevron Dove

    Chevron Dove Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Hi Willa,

    First of all, I want to say, Thank you very, very, much for your kind words. For you to claim our discussion and meeting in terms of a friendship, I count that in high regards and I am deeply humbled. This may be a tense discussion, but please, don’t think that I want to push you away. I would love to be on one accord in Christ Jesus who is TRUTH. I want to acknowledge a few statements that you have made and try to see if we can come to some kind of understanding and/or agreement. You mentioned the term ‘INTERPRETATION’.

    Willa, when you highlighted the fact that I did not quote the scriptures verbatim in regards to the word ‘DISGUISE’, I agree, and in this, there is no interpretation. The KJV used the word ‘BEGUILE’. There are some statements in the Bible are fact, I have acknowledged. But when you write about your thread topic in terms of ‘2/3rd’ there is no VERBATIM SCRIPTURE in what you are saying. On the other hand, I wrote that the fraction for 2/3rd EQUALS 0.6667 [ie. A Repeating fraction], that is a mathematical fact. The number fraction, 2/3rd is much more than a half [ie. ½]. Two-thirds would be greater value than one-half. I applied these fractions to scriptural content, especially scriptures in the Book of REVELATION on the basis of this very thread:

    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil,
    and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into
    the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. REVELATION 12:9.

    Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of
    the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is
    Six hundred threescore and six. REVELATION 13:18.

    Now the other scriptures also define the dragon and as having seven heads and ten horns and this clearly associates the dragon to the Beast with the same description. The Dragon gives power to the beast of which also has the same description of having seven heads and ten horns. So obviously, the DRAGON and the BEAST correlate one to another; they both have common factors in their description. The IMAGE OF THE BEAST would therefore correlate to SATAN’S IMAGE. And then the beast is correlated to ‘the number of a man’ whose number is 666. So this whole scripture revolves around the operative word ‘MAN’. All throughout the Bible Satan is referred to as a male gender. Now in terms of ‘interpretation’ I can see where terms within these scriptures like ‘beast’, ‘dragon’ and ‘the number 666’ and ‘a certain man with this number’ can be ‘AN INTERPRETATION’ and I have earlier mentioned that I have some more research about this topic that I would like to share in this community later that could be viewed as my interpretation:

    And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold
    a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns,
    and seven crowns
    upon his heads. REVELATION 12:3.

    And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise
    up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,
    and upon his horns ten crowns
    , and upon his heads
    the name of blasphemy. REVALATION 13:1.

    And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto
    the beast
    : and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like
    unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? REVELATION 13.4.

    My interpretation of ‘the beast’ I wrote would be ‘a government body’ and ‘a system’ and my interpretation of ‘SATAN’ would be based upon the Serpent described in the Garden of Eden. My interpretation of SATAN as a man and not a serpent that crawled would be based on scripture(s) at a later time period that literally states that SATAN himself said that he would WALK through the earth and etc.:

    And Satan stood up against Israel,
    and provoked David to number Israel.
    1 CHRONICLES 21:1.

    As Christians, at times, we may disagree but hopefully, we can base our testimony and ministry on some concrete happenings and scripture reference within the Bible but also supported by other modern day scientific and scholarly publications as well. Willa, when you made direct statements such as in regards to ‘2/3rd’, I can accept what you believe but again, I base my understanding on the scripture topic of your thread in regards to the number 666.

    Furthermore, I don’t believe that you mean any harm at all, however, I earlier told you that the mathematical fraction ‘2/3rds’ directly correlates to the decimal 0.666 and that shockingly, this very mathematic figure and this very scripture in the book of REVELATION was used in American law to justify CHATTEL SLAVERY and against Black African Americans, but you rejected this idea completely. In mathematical application, the decimal 0.666 would be referred to as |.666|; THE ABSOLUTE VALUE for that decimal number. Likewise, the symbol |2/3| would be the ABSOLUTE VALUE for that fraction. Therefore the ABSOLUTE VALUE for both figures are one and the same. I can definitely accept your viewpoint about the fraction ‘2/3rds’ but Willa, this very fraction is a major part of our constitution in regards to the Black African Slave Trade, and again, I AM IN DEEP SHOCK at this revelation. You are right in what you wrote about THE TWO-THIRD VOTE but after doing more research, I also see some other facts.

    Today, it has been stressed that the TWO-THIRDS value [the |.666| ABSOLUTE VALUE] OF BLACK SLAVES that so many African Americans from earlier generations are enraged about because we know it was used to value our enslaved ancestors in law as being ‘2/3rds of a person’ [TWO-THIRDS OF A PERSON], on the other hand, has been passionately stated by the Americans legal profession as being a misguided and false notion. Even though the constitution was carefully worded, or should I say re-worded, to script the two-third factor as being instead THREE-FIFTHS VOTE [ie. 3/5ths vote], a deeper research will still reveal that common slave application of THE TWO-THIRDS VALUE of slaves, or the 66.6% of a human value of a Black ‘Negro’ slave that this American law applied against my people for a very, very, long time. In fact, this very ABSOLUTE VALUE of a slave is well scripted and documented, not only in American history and law, but also can be found in the very legal documents all over Europe and also, in India too! So no Church or Christian that I know about today has connected this scripture in the Book of REVELATION to THE TWO-THIRD’S LAW in Chattel Slavery time, however, it sure seems like a strange coincidence that the HOLY BIBLE would script this very figure! This TWO-THIRDS RULE applied to the African Slave actually goes back way before the THREE-FIFTHS law was written into our constitution but it was still heavily applied to slaves even up to and beyond the FUGITIVE SLAVE LAW. And, the decimal absolute value for fraction 3/5th of 0.6, would be distinctly different in regards to the value of the fraction for 2/3rds of 0.6667. However, beyond this bitter-sweet issue of THE TWO-THIRD VALUE of a slave and THE THREE-FIFTHS LAW would be the true origin of this NUMBER 666 which the Holy Bible records would be in correlation to the Great Dragon, Satan, that Old Serpent! And therefore, this subject of the Serpent also connects to our other discussion in regards to SPIRITS and evil spirits and etc.

    In my experience and study, the Biblical description of spirits and devils has been very challenging for me! But earlier, you wrote about some scriptures such as when Jesus drove the spirits out of the man into the pigs and etc., I definitely would like to address my experience and research in this regards too at a later time and in another post, because it does connect to Satanism. When you referenced the scripture about the Creator being over all spirits, it reminds of what Jesus said when asked how to pray: Jesus said to pray that the Creator will not ‘LEAD YOU/US INTO TEMPTATION’ and Jesus said to pray that the Creator will ‘DELIVER YOU/US FROM EVIL’. For some it may be a hard concept to think that the Creator could, would, and did send EVIL SPIRITS to become a stumbling block at times. But hey, if He doesn’t like us, He can do what he wants, and that is very scary in my opinion. Jesus said, don’t be afraid of who can kill the body, be afraid of who can kill the soul. I know what it feels like to have a broken spirit and for that reason, I don’t trust mankind as my head, but I have hope only in a Higher Power. I acknowledge that you don’t believe that evil spirits have bodies, but again, let us not just quit, but press for more discussion with scripture.
     
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