Black Spirituality Religion : Reincarnation.

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by KingSango, Apr 30, 2014.

  1. KingSango

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    Reincarnation



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    yuquibo
    Moderator
    Posts: 80
    (7/10/02 12:00 am)
    Reply
    Reincarnation Other than we reincarnate, what else is there to know about how, when, why we reincarnate?

    Comparing to other reincarnation theologies:
    -Are we seeking some kind of "enlightenment" or just living and picking useful destinies?
    -Do we pick up bad habits or weight from prior lives, or just lessons? How much of a clean slate if any does our Ori start with in each life?
    -Since Ori is always with us, is there any real use in learning about past lives beyond what Ori carries with it (where we lived, names, occupations, etc..)






    Obalorun Ala Aganju
    LCO Member

    Posts: 17
    (7/11/02 1:45 pm)
    Reply Reincarnation Alafia all

    What follows is from a collect of notes I give to my Godchildren

    The cycle of life

    It is my understanding, that Aborisa believe that the life that is being lived is in a very real way more important than what may and will come after we die. Therefore, the "After life" does not hold the same importance as it does for Christian, Muslims, or even Hindu's. Aborisa do believe in "reincarnation," According to Modupe Oduyoye, an author and researcher in Yoruba language. The Yoruba term for "reincarnation," he offers is atorunbowaajaye, coming back from Orun to enjoy life.

    This verse from Oyeku Ose, speaks of reincarnation, atorunbowajaye, although it does not use the term, atorunbowajaye. The teachings of Ifa were interpreted for the wise ones.
    Who assembled and invited some Babalawo to interpret the teachings of Ifa on death.
    The asked why is it that death kills people and there is no one who does not die?
    The Babalawo said that it is good that Amuniwaye, (the one who brought us into the world, this is a Praise name for Olodumare) created death.
    Water, which does not flow back and forth, becomes a pond of polluted water.
    A pond of water which causes disease.
    Water takes people away freely and water brings them back freely.
    Let them go home to receive a new body (awo titun a new skin, a new vessel for the Spirit); let the corrupt go home to receive new character so they may return to the world.
    Then the Babalawo asked: " What is unpleasant about this?"
    The wise ones prostrated in respect for Ifa, saying: aboru; aboye; abosise. (The offering has been made, may it be accepted; may it be blessed, (I prefer, to think of it as may we receive blessings)
    Then they went away and they no longer considered death as a matter of sorrow.

    There is a proverb which speaks to impermanence of our physical lives which says: "The world (Aiye) is but a market place, but the Realm of Spirit (Orun) is home." Aye l oja Orun n ile. But we Aborisa don't not view the life we are living as an adversarial event from which we hope and expect to escape to a better life in the "other world." To my understanding, that proverb speaks of the impermanence of our physical lives and the indestructibility of our spirit essence. In the magazine Yoruba Ideas Vol. 1 number 1, 1997. This comes from an interview with the Araba of Ife, Awoyeni Awyem (Araba is title of a High Priest of Ifa). The Interviewer asked him what was his belief about life after death the Araba replied, "Let us generally pray for long life. Have you been told of anyone who went to heaven or hell and came back?"

    The life we are living is the most important thing we have to concern ourselves with. Aborisa do not have an adversarial relationship with life, the Creator and the World of Spirit. Though, how we live, and what we do with our lives is very important. We have a responsibility not to waste the life we are living. We have a responsibility to ourselves, our loved ones, our parents, our Ancestors and our future generations, learn as much and do as much that is constructive and enjoyable in the world as we can. Even if that only means being a true friend, companion and lover, or good at the job or profession you have chosen and I you are not pleased with the job or profession you have, then you are under a spiritual obligation to do better and in that way you have contributed increasing good in the world and not let any good be lost. Until the good condition that Olodumare has ordained for every human being has been made manifest. So that at the end of our lives we have been a credit to loved ones, our parents, our Ancestors and our future generations and can be remembered with the warmth and respect we would and should desire. It is in this way that the life we are living has an effect on the life to come. The life or lives to come are still not more than important as the life we are currently living, because as far as I know, we can only consciously live one life at a time
    .
    As far as I know since Aborisa have no dogma, at least, not in the same way Islam or Christianity do. Just as I am sure that all of the various branches of the Yoruba family tree will variations of have the concept which is to follow but I think that generally it would be agreed with. Humankind has a multivalent "spiritual essence." There is Emi or breath, the actual physical life, there is your shadow ojiji, which is as impermanent as your breath, but is still endowed with your essence. Then there is your Ori (The aspect of your spiritual essence which lives on after the body dies and was "alive" in Orun (the Realm of Spirit) before manifesting in the current life. The Spirit Ori is also called the Ori Inu "Inner Head"). Ori also refers to your physical head. Your physical head is the residence of your spiritual head. This is why rituals of cleaning, feeding and initiation are performed on your physical head. Part of your Ori becomes an ancestor in the life/lives lived previously and part can be reborn into the world. It is believed that "life" of the spirit is cyclical or better still a ascending spiral toward reunion with Oldmar from whom it came. Aborisa believe that the ancestral spirits, or Egun (E is pronounced A as in hay, gun is pronounced goon) are to be remembered and consulted by the living. Death in Aborisa thought is not evil or cruel, but pure and necessary. As Oyeku Ose counsels:

    The teachings of Ifa were interpreted for the wise ones.

    Who assembled and invited some Babalawo to interpret the teachings of Ifa on death.

    They asked "Why is it that death kills people and there is no one who does not die?"

    The Babalawo said that Ifa says it is good that Amuniwaye, the one who brought us into the world, created death.

    Water which does not flow back and forth

    Becomes a pond of polluted water, a pond of water, which causes disease.

    Water takes people away freely and water brings them back freely.

    Let the ill go home to receive a new body; Let the corrupt go home to receive new character;

    So they may return to the world

    The Babalawo then asked: "What is unpleasant about this?"

    The wise ones bowed in respect for Ifa, saying:

    The offering has been made; may it be accepted; and may it be blessed.

    Then, they dispersed and went away.

    And they no longer regarded death as a matter of sorrow.

    Iku (Death) is the Orisa entrusted by Oldmar with the task of releasing the spiritual essence from the physical world to so it can return to Orun. Iku is pure and blameless. Iku is the collector of the only debt that can not go unpaid. One of the titles or praise names for Iku is Ojise Orun, " Bailiff The Spirit Realm (Orun).





    There are many Sacred Legends explaining why death is in the world. What follows is one of them.

    At one time no one died. It took 500 old people to move a table. It took 4 people to open a door. The young worked night and day to support them. The young prayed to Oya for deliverance.
    It began to rain, those who could not climb to the roofs of houses drown. It continued to rain, those who could not climb to the tops of the tallest trees drown. When the rain stopped and the dead had been buried, the young worked and death had come into the world.


    There is such a thing as a premature or untimely death that is constantly guarded against by maintaining the proper balance and staying on the proper path through life by means of prayer sacrifice, and divination.

    Aborisa believe that the ancestral spirits, or Egun (E is pronounced A as in hay, gun is pronounced goon) are to be remembered and consulted by the living.
    Our Egun have a vested interest in us whether we seek their assistance or not. Our Egun have a vested interest in us whether we know their names or not. We are tied to our Egun by blood and or initiation.
    My still limited understanding of the "life" of the spirit has grown and I hope it will continue to grow. At one time I held a somewhat Hindu/Buddhist view that we are evolving through lives with things to learn and if we do not learn them then we are doomed to continue returning to the world of the living to work on ourselves. I still to some extent hold this to be accurate for some individuals. I think and feel that there are those who's spiritual energy continues to "toil" in this world because they have yet to "get it", what ever "it" is. As the refrain from Osa Ose tells us, "what you dont learn in this world you will learn in the next. But, I think there are those who are mandated on missions to assist us and to better the world, and it is a blessed mission they are on by mandate of Olodumare and or the Orisa. We, our lives are emanations of the power and will of Olodumare. We as human beings have a unique purpose in all of creation. We have a direct mandate from Olodumare to bring good in to the world.
    This translation of the Odu Irosun owori and other things have changed my prospective:

    Irosun owori
    Eniyan, The Chosen Ones.
    Let us do things with joy. Those who want to go let them go, those who want to stay let them stay. Surely human beings, (Eniyan), have been chosen to bring good into the world. Morantan, (The all knowing one) Awo Orunmila, consulted Ifa for Orunmila. He told him that the people of the world would come and ask him a question. He told Orunmila that he should make sacrifice. Orunmila heard and complied. One day all kinds of people, good people and those who do not allow good in other peoples lives, gathered together. They went to Orunmila. They said, "Coming back and forth to the earth. Please allow us to rest in heaven. Orunmila said: You can not avoid going back and forth to the earth, until you bring forth the good condition that Olodumare has ordained for every human being. After then, you may rest in heaven. They asked, "what is the good condition?" Orunmila said: " The good condition is a good world."
    A world in which there is full knowledge of all things; Happiness is everywhere; Life without anxiety or fear of enemies; Without clashes with snakes or other dangerous animals; A world without fear of death; disease; loss, wizards (Oso), witches, (Aje), or Esu. Without fear of injury, from water or fire; Without fear of poverty or misery. Because of your wisdom, your good character and your internal strength.
    The things need to bring about the good condition in the world are: Wisdom that is fully adequate to govern the world; Sacrifice, character, and the love of doing good for all people; most importantly those who are in need and those who seek assistance from us; what is also needed to bring about the good condition in the world is the desire for good character, internal strength and the eagerness to strive to increase good in the world and not let any good be lost. People will continue to go back and forth from earth to heaven; And they will go back and forth from earth, until everyone has achieved the good condition. Thus when the all the children of Oduduwa gather together; Those chosen to bring good into the world will be called, human beings (Eniyan), the chosen ones.

    Because of your wisdom, your good character and your internal strength, because of your wisdom, your good character and your internal strength. There are those who are as this verse says chosen, because of their good character and their internal strength, because of their wisdom to continue to work to bring about "the good condition". This is an honor and a blessing to and for them from Olodumare, because they were in life and are in death wise of good character and displayed and display internal strength. When an Iworo dies and the Itutu is done and not all of the Orisa "go", the one or ones that "stay" stays with someone. Someone who is family, family either by blood or by initiation, could it not be that the Orisa or Orisa who have elected or perhaps better been selected to stay, did so because they were on a mission. A mission to assist in bringing about the good condition in the world. A mission to help assure that the good condition is achieved. A mission to increase good in the world and not let any good be lost? As opposed to "toiling" in this world because they have yet to "get it", what ever it is or to do it, whatever it maybe? So in short, there will always be those who because of their good character and their internal strength and their wisdom will continue to work to bring about "the good condition". By "Coming back and forth to the earth, to strive to increase good in the world and not let any good be lost. Until the good condition that Olodumare has ordained for every human being has been made manifest.
    As I understand it Aborisa (Orisa worshipers) believe that a long full, productive, balanced and harmonious life is the goal of human existence. So that at the end of our lives we have been a credit to our loved ones, our parents our Ancestors our future generations and ourselves.
    There is in Aborisa another type of "Coming back and forth to the earth, to strive to increase good in the world and not let any good be lost. Until the good condition that Olodumare has ordained for every human being has been made manifest." This other type of Coming back and forth to the earth" takes place most often in ceremonies where drumming for the Orisa occurs. There is the saying, "Iku Lo bi Ocha," death gives birth to Orisa. I have come to view this proverb from a different perspective.

    I was in Cuba at the end of December 2001. It was a wonderful and informative trip. My wife, my first Godson and I went to have Anya played. My Godson and I had a double Anya played, me for Sango in honor of Dada, which I had received in July. My wife had Anya played for our Padrinos Obatala. On the evening before the double Anya we (our Padrino a number of our Abure, my wife Godson and I were sitting on the front porch in the Arroyo Apolo section of Havana. Padrino asked, "Can any of you explain how it is that so many of the same Ocha can come and mount people at a Bembe?"
    Remember, there is only one Sango, One Osun, and one Obatala, there is only one of every Orisa. How is it that there can be six Sango, eight Obatalas and five Osuns, down and dancing in the same Bembe."
    There was complete silence on the porch, as it was sun down you really could hear the crickets and because it was Cuba, you could hear the Roosters too.
    When no one answered my Padrino said, " How is it is possible that there can be six Sango, eight Obatalas and five Osuns, down and dancing in the same Bembe? It is because the Orisa deputize and send the spirits of the Alagba lagba as their representatives from Orun to inhabit the bodies of the living." "This is in the truest since what is meant by Iku lo bi Ocha, (death gives birth to Orisa)." He said, "And, another thing. When a "spirit," be it of light or darkness inhabits the body of someone they know that they are doing it. Spirits know that they must manifest in that way and are aware of where they are and whom they are "using". When an "Orisa" inhabits the body of a person they do not know that is what they are doing." "They are not aware that they are "using" a human body when they are using it." Many times I heard an Orisa who is down at a Bembe ask to see and talk to the very person whose body they are using. "How many times have you seen the Orisa insistently demand to see and talk there their Omode no matter what they are told?" "How many times have you seen people who are older and perhaps of ill health dance like young people when their Orisa is down?" (I have experienced this first hand. When Padrinos Ajaguna comes he always demand to see and talk to his "Omode" and he always dances like a teenager. The next day Padrino was very tired and a little sore. Ajaguna had been in rare form! In 12 years of knowing Padrino I had never seen his Ajaguna dance and run and jump like he did the night my wife played for his Obatala. Bear in mind, Padrino is 75 years of age, though he is very active and energetic he is still, 75. The next day we went to pay a visit to Lazaro Ros, a life long friend of Padrino's and a friend of mine since I sang with him while he was on a tour in the US in1997. When we arrived at lazaro's the first thing he did was ask for his friend Gilberto. We told Lazaro about the Bembe and about Padrino's condition. Lazaro told us of another friend of his whose Ajaguna comes with the "force". One day, this friend was complaining to Lazaro about what Ajaguna had done to him. Lazaro told his friend, "Hey. . . Don't tell me. Tell Obatala! But I have digressed). Padrino went on to say that in his youth, he knew Alagba Olorisa, who were made in the time of Spain and shortly thereafter, who would recognize the way a Sango or an Obatala or which ever Orisa it was had danced. They would remark that that Orisa danced the same way Fulano or Mengana danced in life.

    Iku lo bi Ocha, death gives birth to Orisa, there those who because of their good character and their internal strength and their wisdom will continue to work to bring about "the good condition". There are those who will continue coming back and forth to the earth, striving to increase good in the world and not let any good be lost. Until the good condition that Olodumare has ordained for every human being has been made manifest.


    Oshailu
    Senior LCO Board Member
    Posts: 128
    (7/11/02 3:45 pm)
    Reply Re: Reincarnation Greetings

    Thank you Obalorun for that tremendously wonderful contribution, it was very informative.

    I would like to however discuss the odu Irosun Iwori and the verse you quoted. I am interested in the source of this ese Ifa. We know that Europeans did not only influence Yoruba culture but for many people, influenced Ifa religion. The verse speaks of the struggle to obtain a utopian society "....A world without fear of death; disease; loss, wizards (Oso), witches, (Aje), or Esu. "
    In traditional orisha worship, neither Aje nor Esu are innately evil nor is it Olodumare's intention to get rid of them. We know it was the European who initially equated Eshu with the christian devil and the Aje to the European ideology of witches and sorcery. I am not sure that Ifa would ever suggest the absence of Elegua.
    I have noticed one source which many people have taken to be reliable. Ifism, the complete works of Orunmila by Osamaro Ibie. In his interpretations of Ifa, Eshu is considered to be sort of the antithesis of Olodumare. However, this view is not shared by most practitioners in Nigeria, Cuba, Brazil and hopefully the U.S.

    Here are two quotes from 'The Good, The Bad and The Beautiful' by Barry Helen. The quotes come from his source

    159. "Aje are [can be] good persons (eniyan rere). Not all the aje are bad persons (eniyan buruku). There are some good ones. Since they do not talk (soro)[about it] we cannot differentiate (mo soto) whether this aje is good or whether this aje is bad."

    161. " There are some [aje] who do good things...Aje is not meant to be used in bad ways. Aje is created so that the world may progress."

    As for reincarnation, I agree, in our tradition, reincarnation is not meant as a punishment, life is meant to be enjoyed. This however leads me to question the verse one more time in that it promises a 'liberation' (as Buddhists and Hindu's would put it) should a certain criteria be met. In fact. Okana meyi in our system teaches that for existence to continue all things and their opposites must manifest in the world. It is up to us as individuals to make the right decisions so that life may be pleasant and recieve the favor of the orisha.

    Blessings






    Obalorun Ala Aganju
    LCO Member

    Posts: 18
    (7/12/02 1:19 am)
    Reply Reincarnation Greetings

    Thank you Obalorun for that tremendously wonderful contribution, it was very informative.

    I would like to however discuss the odu Irosun Iwori and the verse you quoted. I am interested in the source of this ese Ifa. We know that Europeans did not only influence Yoruba culture but for many people, influenced Ifa religion. The verse speaks of the struggle to obtain a utopian society "....A world without fear of death; disease; loss, wizards (Oso), witches, (Aje), or Esu. "
    In traditional orisha worship, neither Aje nor Esu are innately evil nor is it Olodumare's intention to get rid of them. We know it was the European who initially equated Eshu with the christian devil and the Aje to the European ideology of witches and sorcery. I am not sure that Ifa would ever suggest the absence of Elegua.
    I have noticed one source which many people have taken to be reliable. Ifism, the complete works of Orunmila by Osamaro Ibie. In his interpretations of Ifa, Eshu is considered to be sort of the antithesis of Olodumare. However, this view is not shared by most practitioners in Nigeria, Cuba, Brazil and hopefully the U.S.

    Here are two quotes from 'The Good, The Bad and The Beautiful' by Barry Helen. The quotes come from his source

    159. "Aje are [can be] good persons (eniyan rere). Not all the aje are bad persons (eniyan buruku). There are some good ones. Since they do not talk (soro)[about it] we cannot differentiate (mo soto) whether this aje is good or whether this aje is bad."

    161. " There are some [aje] who do good things...Aje is not meant to be used in bad ways. Aje is created so that the world may progress."

    As for reincarnation, I agree, in our tradition, reincarnation is not meant as a punishment, life is meant to be enjoyed. This however leads me to question the verse one more time in that it promises a 'liberation' (as Buddhists and Hindu's would put it) should a certain criteria be met. In fact. Okana meyi in our system teaches that for existence to continue all things and their opposites must manifest in the world. It is up to us as individuals to make the right decisions so that life may be pleasant and recieve the favor of the orisha.

    Blessings


    Alafia Oshailu, members and visitors,

    A world without fear of death; disease; loss, wizards (Oso), witches, (Aje), or Esu.

    I could also add Ajogun to the list, but I do not consider any of the entities listed as evil. Nor have I been taught that any of the entities listed are evil.

    Rather I consider these entities to be forces of opposition or perhaps better challenge and therefore part of the balance, "Obi tele ofo tele," "There is gain and there is loss, from one the world was born from one the world was lost.

    In the verse it says, Orunmila said: You can not avoid going back and forth to the earth, until you bring forth the good condition that Olodumare has ordained for every human being. After then, you may rest in heaven. They asked, "what is the good condition?" Orunmila said: " The good condition is a good world."
    A world in which there is full knowledge of all things; Happiness is everywhere; Life without anxiety or fear of enemies; Without clashes with snakes or other dangerous animals; A world without fear of death; disease; loss, wizards (Oso), witches, (Aje), or Esu. Without fear of injury, from water or fire; without fear of poverty or misery.

    This desire, this wish, this request is expressed on a regular basis :
    Ko si Ku So that death will be no more
    Ko si Arun Sickness is no more
    Ko si Eyo Tragedy is no more
    Ko si Ofo Loss is no more
    Ko si Idina Obstacles are no more
    Ko si Fitibo To be overwhelmed is no more
    Ko si Ajogun ati Aje That I may not fall prey to "spirits" and witchcraft
    Ko si Akoba That I may not fall prey to unforeseen evil
    Ko si Arafe That I may not fall prey to the ill wishes of others
    A'riku Baba wa Don't let us see death our father (before it is our time)

    (I add Aje and Ajogun to my list)

    Esu is not on the list above, but as I am sure we can agree it is the mandate of Esu/Elegba to "stir things up" and or shake us out of our complacency. Perhaps what I am About to say can be seen as spliting hairs, but the verse says A world without fear of death; disease; loss, wizards (Oso), witches, (Aje), or Esu. It does not say a A world without death; disease; loss, wizards (Oso), witches, (Aje), or Esu.

    As for Aje, Aje as it manifests in human beings is a function of Ase. Every creature that walks swims, crawls, or flies has Ase; this of course includes humankind. Ase is more than "spiritual essence" it implies and imparts empowerment and sanction to do or be. The word Ase can be translated: "So be it," implying the right, power, or ability to make something happen or come into being. The sounds of nature have Ase; the sounds of musical instruments have Ase. (r) the spoken word has Ase.

    The Ase of the spoken word is increased exponentially when the "word" takes the form of prayers, praises, songs, and incantations, even curses. Our everyday conversation has Ase and is imbued with the power to cause things to come into or go out of existence. Nothing is better than a constructive tongue, nothing is worse than a destructive tongue.

    This why our elders admonish us to watch our mouths, because conscious and unconscious thought has Ase. Very often, we do harm to each other and ourselves by means of unconscious destructive thoughts. In the physical world, humankind can, through will and decision actively work with Ase as it manifests itself in the world around us, and or work to enhance our personal Ase. Through conscious and unconscious will, humankind can make things happen, cause things to come into being.

    The power of unconscious will is called Ori Aje (Aje, it would seem does not translate and or interpret well into English. The only definitions available are witch and witch craft. We must be careful not translate this in the prejudicial terms of European culture. Aje more accurately refers to the great spiritual and supernatural power that works in our unconscious will.) The power that is made manifest by Ori Aje can be either constructive or destructive. How many times has event taken some person call or come by and you said, wow! I was just thinking about you, that, etc. We all have a great deal more power in this world than we give ourselves credit for.

    Human beingings as far as I know are the only entities in all of creation who can active work to enhance our Ase. It is for this reason we must strive through experience, training and initiations to acquire the qualities that will guide us in the proper development and use of Ase in general and our personal Ase in particular. All of the qualities that must be developed and refined all our lives, which aid us in working with Ase have already been talked about: knowledge, wisdom, understanding, caution, stability, dignity, maturity, patience, caring and thoughtfulness, respect inner beauty.

    As for Awon Iya Wa, "Our Mothers," "The Mothers" are reputed to be able to take the physical forms of various animals, especially birds. In this form they come in the night and visit their displeasure on offenders. This force can be invoked and evoked with and without an act of conscious will. This is why some one with so much power must strive to maintain coolness and composure. Therefore, it is wisest and best that Aje are respectfully referred to as, Awon Iya Wa, "Our Mothers," or personally as Iymi, "My Mother" or Iy gb, "Old and Wise Mother." These terms of respect speak in recognition of the positive aspects of the "Mothers" in their role as progenitors, healers, protectors and guardians of morality, social order, and the just apportionment of power, wealth and prestige. These terms of respect also speak to the issue of women being psychically powerful in a way men could never hope to attain. No matter how many initiations a man may undergo, how much magic he learns or how much Ifa he can recite no man will ever have a new spirit take human form in his body and pass through him into this world. Women are truly the most tangible manifestation of Yemonjas power on this earth; they are the undeniable and indisputable cauldrons of creation in human form. Western scientists may have convinced themselves that they have unraveled the mysteries of genes, chromosomes and DNA, but knowledge has not conferred upon them the ability to do what every woman can do when she reaches puberty and Oldmar /Olofi confers As upon them. Women are the portals through which we all must pass in our journey from Orun (spirit world) to Aiye (physical world). All women are born to be "Alase", possessors and processors of power. They are considered to be Oloni Aiye, "Owners of the World" As they grow and learn and undergo ceremonial initiations and the initiations of life and they become Iya Agba, Elder mothers, wise mothers, mothers who can take it. Yemnja is the celestial custodian of that power and the ultimate manifestation of it.
    It should not go with out saying that Yemnja passed on aspects of this power to her daughters Oya, Osun, Oba, Olosa, and Yewa by dent of celestial genetics.
    According to Henry John Drewal and Margret Thompson Drewal in their book, Gelede, Art and Female Power among the Yoruba, the Gelede cult is a masquerade danced by men to honor and entertain the ancestral mothers and pay homage to their power. These masked dances are performed in the market place, the realm of the women and a microcosm of the world. (Yemnja, mother of the world is considered by many to be the patron of this cult)
    It is my understanding that what is being asked for when the verse says A world without fear of death; disease; loss, wizards (Oso), witches, (Aje). It is referring more so to the destructive aspect of Ori Aje. Wizards (Oso), have a positive aspect as well Oso were in the ancient time and today "Bush Doctors." Herbal specialists and Naturopaths with a deep understand if what is to be found in nature that can heal. And as with all things some things that can heal can kill and vice versa.

    I hope this contribution to the discussion has been clear and useful.

    Be well

    Obalorun Ala Aganju
     
  2. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Scientists and atheists feel that death is a simple phenomenon of nature like stopping of a condemned old machine. The digestive system along with the respiratory system is like the condemned battery unable to generate the current. The oxygen from the respiratory system oxidizes the digested food in the digestive system generating the inert energy, which is supplied to different systems of the body like brain, heart, kidneys etc., The inert energy is transformed into a specific mode of work in each specific system. Such specific mode of work form of the inert energy in the brain and nervous system is called as awareness. If the generation of inert energy is stopped, the subsequent transmissions of inert energy into various modes of work are also stopped. If the systems are damaged due to old age, the damage of the system is also a coinciding factor. This results into the natural old age death. Sometimes, some important system may meet untimely damage and the dis-function of that system may affect the function of other systems leading to untimely death.



    Human body is like a factory containing various systems as machines. The long work may result in the wear and tear of the systems. Brain and nervous system is like the computer control room. The digestive system along with the respiratory system is like the power room. When the total factory like body is shut down, the death is declared. The information disk in the computerized control room is called as Jeeva or individual soul. The current from the power room is called as the Atman or Soul. When the factory is closed [death], what happens to the information panel of the computer room? The disk may lie idle in the factory along with the other systems, which are decomposed in long time. Scientists maintain this view and say that the individual soul also decomposes along with the other systems. This concept is generally expected in the natural way and there need not be any confusion.


    The whole confusion started with a practical aspect that is observed in the world in almost every country i.e., the concept of rebirth of the same individual soul. When the factory is closed [death], somebody has taken away the information disk from the factory [human body] and established it in a new factory [new body]. There are several cases of rebirths with perfectly verified information of the departed souls.


    How is the disk stolen from the old factory?

    Who has stolen this?

    Where is this disk present during the interval time?

    What happened to this disk in the interval time?

    These are the logical questions that arise on the observation of the proven cases of rebirth.


    The scriptures of all the religions say that the individual soul goes to hell or heaven to enjoy the fruits of its deeds for sometime before it takes a new body on this earth for a rebirth.


    Christianity does not agree with rebirth, but there is a version saying that Jesus also accepted the rebirth. Anyway, rebirth is a proven fact appearing before our eyes. The same individual soul takes rebirth in this world after sometime of the death. There need not be any discussion on this aspect.


    The debate is only about the issues in the interval period. The Scripture says that the soul goes to hell and heaven in the interval. Now, the doubt is whether this soul goes to hell and heaven or takes rest in some place in the cosmos? Since there is no direct proof for this affair in the interval, there is a 50-50 probability. A wise man will opt for the presence of hell and heaven because there is no harm if one takes precautions to avoid the hell. Nothing is lost by these precautions if the hell is absent. But, if the hell is present due to 50-50 probability, the negligence of precautions will result in serious damage.


    Regarding the proof for the existing place of hell in this infinite cosmic space, the 50-50 probability can be again applied i.e., I have not shown you the hell in this infinite space and at the same time, you have also not shown Me the absence of hell in this infinite space by taking Me up to the ending boundary of the universe. In such 50-50 probability, the wise decision will be to believe the existence of hell. If precautions are taken to avoid the hell, there is no loss even if the hell is absent. But if precautions are neglected and if the hell is really present, there is a serious damage. Therefore, the conclusion of all this scientific analysis is that the individual soul goes to hell or heaven for sometime and returns to this world for rebirth. Please note that I have not taken any mystic faith based on blind belief in this analysis and hence, all My dear friends, who are scientists and atheists, will adopt this view.

    Supporting Incidents


    To give support to the above story of the interval, there are some experiences of some people, who went up to the verge of death and came back. They said that they have travelled long distance in darkness and then light appeared in which a divine personality was seen. You may say that these are poetic fabrications of these people. It is again a 50-50 probability. It is better to accept their experiences, which coincide with the concept in the above scientific analysis.


    Another supporting point is that the human incarnation, which has proven the existence of unimaginable power through unimaginable events (miracles) also says that the concept of the scripture is correct. You must give validity to His saying, since the unimaginable event was proven by Him though demonstration. You may do away with the human incarnation by saying that the miracles are magic. However, the acceptance of the possibility of the scriptural concept already stands firm in the above scientific analysis.


    Hence, there is no harm in accepting the experiences of some people, scriptural descriptions and the messages of human incarnations supporting the scriptures, which are in line with the 50-50 probability presented in the above scientific analysis. Therefore, the final conclusion is that everyone, be it an atheist or a theist, should accept the rebirth, hell and heaven declared by the scripture and follow all the scriptural precautions carefully in this world. This concept rises in every mind in the old age since the death is near and hence, this concept is clarified removing all confusions.

    www.**************************
    Universal Spirituality for World Peace
     
  3. KingSango

    KingSango Banned MEMBER

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    Yes Reincarnation is real and verifiable so.
     
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