Black Spirituality Religion : Protestant and catholic debate on Mary

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by RAPTOR, Dec 6, 2011.

  1. RAPTOR

    RAPTOR Well-Known Member MEMBER

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  2. cherryblossom

    cherryblossom Banned MEMBER

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    Protestant and Roman Catholic (as well as some Anglican, Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox) views on Mary, the mother of Jesus, differ greatly because of the non-Biblical dogmas, doctrines and traditions the Catholic church attach to her.

    Now, I didn't listen to the entire video; but the following is what I know of some of the beliefs about Mary held by the Roman Catholic church:

    (A) Mary is proclaimed an "Immaculate Conception," meaning that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin.

    (B) Mary is assigned as a "perpetual virgin," meaning that even after
    giving birth to Jesus, she remained a virgin for the rest of her life.
    (C) Mary is an "intercessor/mediator" to Jesus.
    (D) Mary is given titles such as "Queen of Heaven" (among others).
    (E) Mary is given an "Assumption," meaning that she was bodily taken up to Heaven upon her death.
    _____________________________________________________________
    NONE of these beliefs are Bible-based. They have NO scriptural support.

    (A) After Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden, all of humanity became "born of sin." Mary was no exception. She was favored and blessed by God as His VESSEL to give birth to the living Word, Jesus; but no where does the Bible say that Mary was without sin. The only one without sin is Jesus. The only "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION" is JESUS, not Mary.

    (B) Mary was a virgin UNTIL AFTER she gave birth to Jesus. Joseph, her husband, did not have sex with her until AFTER she gave birth to Jesus. ----Also, Joseph and Mary had other children AFTER Jesus. The Bible speaks of brothers and sisters of Jesus.

    (C) The only intercessor/mediator is Jesus and His Holy Spirit. In John 14:6, Jesus said, "...no man cometh unto the Father, but by ME."---Jesus is the Savior of the whole world, including his mother.---Jesus also said that, in prayer, we should ask it IN HIS NAME, not His mother's name.....When Jesus taught how to pray, He didn't say anything about His mother. ---"Our Father, which art in Heaven...." (Again, no mention of Mary.)

    (D) No titles are given to Mary in the Bible. The Bible does not state any heavenly "prestige" for Mary.---Even when James and John asked Jesus if they could sit on his right and left side in heaven, Jesus said:

    ....He did NOT say, "Sorry guys, but one side is for my Mom, and the other side is "TBA."

    Also, as one woman praised Mary as the mother of Jesus, He corrected her:

    ...He did NOT say, "Yeah, my mom IS pretty special!....She gave birth to ME, the Son of God!"

    So, no where did Jesus ever give his mother any earthly nor heavenly distinction.

    (E) Mary's death is not recorded in the Bible. (The last mention of her is Acts 1:14.)

    There is no Biblical support that Mary was taken into Heaven when she died.
    Moreover, this Catholic belief is unfathomable to me because if Mary, as the mother of Jesus, was so "revered" by God, then why would Jesus let her continue to live after His own ascension to Heaven and not take His mother with him??

    I mean really...Jesus turned water into wine, fed multitudes, healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, made the lame walk, the mute talk, cast out demons, and brought Lazarus back to life; but wouldn't take his own mother with Him??

    (By the time of Jesus' crucifixion, Mary was a widow. The Bible does not say when Joseph died.)

    So, why would Jesus let his own mother live and suffer under Roman rule and all the tribulations of life until her death and not take her with Him?? ....Instead, when He was on the cross, He, essentially, said, "Mom, I gotta go; but my buddy John is gonna take care of ya."

    ....He did NOT say, "But, Mom, when you die, I promise you, you're gonna be with me, okay!"

    Jesus also said that NO MAN (or woman) has ascended to Heaven.>>>
     
  3. RAPTOR

    RAPTOR Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Which bible? The kjv or (not) in any bible?

    The catholic xians use the douay rheims. Could their be something
    in that helio-biblios which justifies considerable reverence being
    placed before jesus the christ's momma?
     
  4. MS234

    MS234 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Um how can somebody be the mother of somebody who was NEVER born in the first place?
    It's a story. It's 2012 and yet we still believe child bedtime stories like it's 12 A.D.

    This doesn't even warrant COMMON SENSE, yet people that believe this will tell you santa claus ain't real, the tooth fairy ain't real, the easter bunny ain't real. But somehow a woman who births a child is still virgin is real. :thinking:

    What is the purpose? Do you help or hurt people? Do you even care? So you can name every "scripture". Is your heart in the right place? They call it a "scripture" because you're following a script, like in a play, movie or being a newscaster. As long as you follow the script, you will NEVER have an original thought. This is NOT by accident. Goodness should come from your actions. Not because you can repeat something somebody else said.

     
  5. cherryblossom

    cherryblossom Banned MEMBER

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    The same Books I previously quoted are also in the Douay Rheims.

    So, as a Christian believing in the infallible Word of God and that it does not contradict itself, then whatever "support" from the Catholic bible (Douay Rheims) which "justifies" these beliefs to them is false, just as the entire Catholic church is a "false religion."

    The KJV has 66 books, the Douay Rheims has 73. The "extras" are the 7 "deutero-canonical" books (also called "Apocrypha" by Protestants) which are not included in the KJV and other Protestant Bibles.
    Douay Rheims: http://www.drbo.org/

    ....The Catholic church likes to say that the Protestants don't have the "whole" Bible, but that they do.

    However, if this were true, then they contradict themselves by excluding the Prayer of Manasseh (Psalm 151) and the prayer of Azariah and Esdras 3 and 4. (Esdras 1 & 2 are in the Douay Rheims. They are Ezra and Nehemiah, the same as in Protestant bibles.)

    Moreover, these "extra books" in the Douay Rheims even contradict the teachings of the OT and of Jesus in the NT.

    However, these beliefs/dogmas on Mary were set by Papal Decrees using verses from these "extra books" to support them and/or by OMITTING or TWISTING other verses to fit the doctrines and traditions of the Catholic church.

    In Matthew 13:55, the Douay Rheims supports the "Perpetual Virgin" belief by saying that the "brethren" of Jesus were actually Mary's SISTER'S children. ----But, that would make them his COUSINS, and the Bible clearly uses the word "cousins" in other verses......John the Baptist was Jesus' COUSIN. John's mother, Elizabeth, was Mary's COUSIN----But the Catholic church wants to make the word "brethren" to mean Jesus' COUSINS as well. *Yeah, right.*

    The "Immaculate Conception" of Mary was decreed by Pope Pius IX in 1854.

    The "Assumption of Mary" was decreed by Pope Pius XII in 1950.
     
  6. cherryblossom

    cherryblossom Banned MEMBER

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    MS234, I have noticed your penchant for following me around the board in religious topics to voice your opinions on Christianity and Christians. Often, you will not speak directly to me but rather will direct your comments AT me.

    Now, of course, you have ever right to disagree with any spiritual subject, according to your own beliefs and path.

    However, this behavior of spotlighting my spiritual views to mock and belittle my Faith, using my posts to "score some points," so-to-speak, is getting kinda old now and, frankly, quite childish.

    Yes, I am a Christian. I will continue to stand on my faith in God, His Son, the Holy Spirit and His Holy Word. That will not change.

    Likewise, whatever your spiritual path, it has been quite evident that you are just as passionate about it as I am mine.

    However, instead of addressing your p.o.v. directly to the TOPIC, you have, again, "piggy-backed" off of one of my posts to use it in your aim to denounce Christianity/Christians/the Bible.

    But to address the rest of this>>>>
    (A) The "purpose" of my faith is to increase my walk/relationship with God and His Word, to give me guidance, direction and wisdom thru His Word.

    (B) I strive to help people. Yes, sometimes, I may hurt them; and, yes, I care when I do.

    (C) No, I can not quote every "scripture," but I do study the Word in order to learn from it.

    (D) Yes, my heart is in the right place as long as I lean on His Word/Understanding. When I do not, that is when I err.

    (E) The word "SCRIPTURE" means "WRITINGS." ---"Scripture" is ANY set of "writings" or "TEXT."

    The Hebrew word for "WRITING" is "kathab." ---in Latin, "scriptus."---in Greek, "graphe." ---If it's written down on paper, metal, stone, wood, or any substance, then it's "scripture."

    The word "SCRIPTURE" is applicable to ANY sacred or religious "WRITINGS." --It is not exclusive to the Bible.

    So, according to YOUR definition, then, the "42 Confessions of Maat" would also be a "SCRIPT."

    .... the "Book of the Dead/Coming Forth By Day" would also be a "SCRIPT."

    ..... the "Metu Neter" would also be a "SCRIPT."

    ....the "Instructions of Ptah Hotep" would also be a "SCRIPT."

    So, ALL of these "SCRIPTS" are also what "SOMEBODY ELSE SAID" which people like you and many others here "FOLLOW."

    However, MY "script" is the Bible. Now, you may not like it, and you have every right to do so.

    But, at the end of the day, Imma still tell ya like I told another past member here:

     
  7. Each1teach1

    Each1teach1 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Yep it is completely and utterly ridiculous to say that someone births a child but is somehow still a virgin! I believe that Santa will be god in 500 years or hell maybe even Obama and he too will be born without sin and of a virgin and will have given his life for the nation... He will have traveled in a chariot pulled by magical flying cats, will don a black suit and slide down peoples chimneys on Easter and put cookies under the pillows of children everywhere...It will be quite a riot
     
  8. MS234

    MS234 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    You would want that wouldn't you. Please don't flatter yourself.

    Now it's official. I know you're buggin'. I don't follow Ma'at. But I must say when I read it, alot of it was already in my soul. But I follow no script sorry. I follow my soul/intuition which is strong enough to know right from wrong. If you have a soul that needs to be coached that's fine. I just say do it from realness and not fantasy island.

    Thanx, I already knew that. Tell me something I don't know.

    Sometimes you hurt them, why? Are they trying to hurt you?

    If you are defending yourself physically, you have the right, the duty to protect yourself. I'm not malicious by nature, but don't box me in a corner either.
     
  9. cherryblossom

    cherryblossom Banned MEMBER

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    No, it is not what I would want. Your track record has revealed it.

    And, no, it doesn't "flatter" me.

    However, that behavior is most UN-FLATTERING to YOU.

    I never said nor implied that you did follow Ma'at.

    *R.I.F. (reading is fundamental)*

    However, what I previously said still applies about YOUR so-called "definition" of "SCRIPTURE."

    And as for the rest, YOU do YOU, and I'll do ME.
     
  10. MS234

    MS234 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    You typing so much trying to stick to that hollywood script of yours you can't even remember what you're typing

    Or you don't know what "implied" means

    I don't do things to score "points". I do things because it's real. Your "faith" belittles you not me.
     
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