Black Spirituality Religion : Prophesies

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by Music Producer, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Isa:53:7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    Isa:53:8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    Servants of Jesus use this passage to validate prophesies about Jesus being killed on the Cross, but there exists another point of view of this passage that it not apart of main stream theology.
    In further reading of the Old Testament one becomes aware that this passage is not referring to Jesus but it is actually prophesy about Jeremiah and specific events that occurred in his life. After Isaiah disappears Jeremiah is born about 57 years later. On average the prophesy would have occurred about 100 years before the actual event. These are the actual events that occurred in Jeremiah’s life that Isaiah prophesied about.

    Jer:11:19: But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.

    Lam:3:53: They have cut off my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me.
    54: Waters flowed over mine head; then I said, I am cut off.
    55: I called upon thy name, O LORD, out of the low dungeon.
    56: Thou hast heard my voice: hide not thine ear at my breathing, at my cry.
    57: Thou drewest near in the day that I called upon thee: thou saidst, Fear not.
    58: O Lord, thou hast pleaded the causes of my soul; thou hast redeemed my life.

    Jeremiah drowned and was brought back to life by GOD. With this new understanding we can now see that Isa 53:7 is actually referring to the headships of Jeremiah in delivering the Word of GOD to the Children of Israel as we fell further and further from GOD, even to the point of killing the prophets of GOD.
     
  2. skrybble7

    skrybble7 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    What’s up Music Producer. I ain’t been in here in years but I’ve done some brief reading of some recent posts in here and found that I agree with much of what you say. In this post though, you say that this prophesy of Isaiah points to Jeremiah and not Jesus. It’s my impression that you are a seeker of the truth so with this in mind I submit the following for your consideration:

    You site Isa. 53:7,8 for consideration. Before I comment on these verses specifically, I wonder what you think of the previous verses? For example, verse 4 says “he hath borne our griefs, And carried our sorrows:” How do you equate this with Jeremiah and how not with Christ? And for context sake consider also the very next verse: 5 “he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: The chastisement of our peace was upon him;” And this is the kicker, “AND WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED”
    Verse 6 goes on to say “…And the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” This is all from the very same chapter(53) that you site from. Also, consider for further context the following from verse 10: “…When thou shalt make his soul an OFFERING FOR SIN…” And from verse 12: “…And he BARE THE SIN of many…”
    What is your reasoning that this prophesy refers to Jeremiah and not Jesus? When you look at the whole chapter, and I encourage anyone to read it for themselves, the main thrust of the chapter speaks of one who is innocent being sacrificed for the sins of many.

    Where in the book of Jeremiah, which is the account of his life and ministry, does it show that he was the sacrificial lamb and was sacrificed for the sins of many? Or any? That is clearly what Isaiah 53 talks about over and over.
    Also in the same verse that you site, verse 8 it says the same thing: “…For the trasression of my people was he stricken…” When you put it all together it paints a fairly clear picture, and one that does not match Jeremiah and does match Jesus. Though I see in verse 7 where he mentions a lamb being brought to slaughter and how this is very similar to Jeremiah 11:19 which you site, but it doesn’t take into account the whole context of
    this particular passage or the whole account of Jeremiah for that matter.

    This brings me to my next question. When did Jeremiah drown? This is no account of this event in the book of Jeremiah nor anywhere else for that matter. Jeremiah was in a dungeon but he clearly did not die. You site Lamentations. I submit this for your consideration. 1)Lamentations is poetry and therefore figurative and symbolic and all that poetry tends to be 2) 54: Waters flowed over mine head; then I said, I am cut off.
    Is not meant to be taken literally. How do I know this? Well, a) you can find it in other poetic writings. Example: Psalms 62 where King David(who never drowned either) says from verse 1: Save me, O God; for the WATERS are come unto my soul. 2: I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me.
    But more importantly b) you can read the account of Jeremiah in the dungeon.
    I suggest reading the whole passage, even the whole book, but here are the most relevant parts:

    Jeremiah 38:6 - Then took they Jeremiah, and cast him into the dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech, that was in the court of the prison: and they let down Jeremiah with cords. And in the dungeon there was no water, but mire: so Jeremiah sunk in the mire.

    Jeremiah 38:9 - My lord the king, these men have done evil in all that they have done to Jeremiah the prophet, whom they have cast into the dungeon; and he is like to die for hunger in the place where he is: for there is no more bread in the city.

    Jeremiah 38:10 - Then the king commanded Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Take from hence thirty men with thee, and take up Jeremiah the prophet out of the dungeon, before he die.

    Notice the “before he die” part above

    Jeremiah 38:11 - So Ebedmelech took the men with him, and went into the house of the king under the treasury, and took thence old cast clouts and old rotten rags, and let them down by cords into the dungeon to Jeremiah.

    Jeremiah 38:13 - So they drew up Jeremiah with cords, and took him up out of the dungeon: and Jeremiah remained in the court of the prison.

    So as you see, Jeremiah didn’t die at all not for lack of bread, not for too much water.
    I believe that you seek the truth, so I hope that this is taken as food for thought and not as persecution nor an attack of any kind.
    God bless you and keep seeking.
     
  3. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Skrybble7:

    It is good to see that some of us continue to be interested in a Book about GOD that has survived longer than we truly know and is the best seller in the world instead of looking for answers in obscure books and authors digging around in the dark for understanding and peace. It has been in front of us all this time.

    Deu 30:
    10: If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
    11: For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
    12: It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
    13: Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
    14: But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

    Just as the LORD told us.

    Now let us examine the Word and understanding. As the Children of Israel were making the transition from being the People of GOD to becoming Heathens they became extremely hostile towards anyone speaking and ministering Words from an old religion and an old GOD who had old ways, but they feared this GOD because they continued to have knowledge of ITs Power. Isaiah may be prophesying about other prophets and their lives and how they lived in trying to deliver the LORDs message to a people that turned against GOD and willingly over time became HIS enemy. The reason we see more of Jeremiah in Isaiah’s description is because we have a larger part or record of Jeremiahs life. So let us take it line by line.

    1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    The arm of the LORD was revealed to the Prophets who is of the tribe Levi. What did GOD reveal to Jesus? Nothing, how do I know this, because GOD Himself is not depicted as Speaking in HIS own Words with HIS own Breath in the New Testament with the exception of these passages.

    Mt:3:17: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Mt:17:5: While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    Mk:1:11: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Mk:9:7: And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

    Lk:3:22: And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    And even then the New Testament fails to identify the Voice, so already we are made to assume. Just by examining this first verse of Isaiah 53 and the structure of the New Testament we see Jesus is out of the picture because GOD Himself is not depicted as Speaking anymore Words in the New Testament.

    I will move on to the next verse but first I would like to know how you justify this first verse of Isaiah 53?
     
  4. skrybble7

    skrybble7 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I agree with you in fact that the Bible is the most corroborated most detailed and reliable source of information in book form that exist. And generally people who choose not to believe it tend to lean heavily on less reliable sources and they require a lower standard for proof of reliability than they do for the Bible. Overlooking the whole time that when it comes to a faith… well… Faith is fundamental.

    Anyway, I’m going to try and answer your questions as directly and specifically as I am able. And I’m hoping you will do the same.

    You ask: “What did GOD reveal to Jesus?” Then you site Matthew, Mark and Luke, where when John baptized Jesus and the Spirit of the Lord descended in the form of a dove saying: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” as exceptions. You also suggest that there is no explicit reference of the voice being from God. Lol Man, I think you know better than that. Who else might that voice in the cloud have come from? But if you truly don’t know I will site from your own site of Luke. And in your site of Luke it says: Lk:3:22: And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

    See where it says the “Holy Ghost?” Exactly who do you associate the Holy Ghost with if not God?

    Anyway my short answer to your question is from Matthew 17: 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    This is from the time Peter, James, and John went up to the mountain with Jesus and Jesus was transfigured into glory before their eyes.

    Here’s the thing about your question though. You seem to assume that only by word can the arm of the Lord be revealed. If the “arm” of the Lord represents His power than He is abundantly revealed in that God lit Jesus up on that mountain.

    Nevertheless, in keeping with the parameters of your question I offer the above as one example.

    Also when you talk about the word of God… Jesus “is” the Word of God.
    Consider this from the book of John: John1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Ok So your last question is how do I justify the first verse of Isaiah 53. The short answer is that I don’t. This is why. By itself it is merely a rhetorical question. By itself, there is not much in the way of context. What is there to justify?

    Having answered your questions I return back to mine and ask again. Was Jeremiah ever a sacrifice for the sin of others? And how can you assert that he drowned when the Bible says explicitly that he did not die in that dungeon?

    Looking forward to further discourse in these matters.
    God bless.
     
  5. uplift19

    uplift19 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    :jawdrop:









    :explode:
     
  6. cursed heart

    cursed heart Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I'm sure you have more to say uplift:deal:
     
  7. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    But what did GOD reveal to Jesus?
    The problem of relating Jesus to Isaiah 53:1 is GOD after revealing or introducing Jesus to the reader as HIS Son, no longer Speaks in the New Testament. With out GOD Himself depicted as Speaking the reader has no idea as to anything being revealed to Jesus directly from GOD.

    1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    The arm of the LORD is vengeance to destroy Israel and Judah as a Nation because of our breaking the Covenant and serving other gods. This was never revealed to Jesus because we never see Jesus and GOD conversing face to face or does Jesus ever say, “Thus saith the LORD” or “The LORD said unto me”, nor does any of the Apostles. With out this you (of your own free will and assumption) are replacing GOD with Jesus and Apostles because you are accounting their words as divine over the Word or Breath of GOD, just as you did with John in showing Jesus as the Word of GOD. John never once said, “Thus saith the LORD” or “The LORD said unto me”, John never explains to the reader that his information comes directly from GOD. Thus you have now placed Johns doctrine and belief over this…..

    Isa:44:24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    Notice it says, “Thus saith the LORD”.
    When John speaks due to his lack of faith in GOD he voided this entire decree of GOD.

    Deu: 18:
    16: According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
    17: And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
    18: I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
    19: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    John did not speak in the Name of GOD. Thus Johns words cannot be used for faith and understanding in and of GOD. John is a Servant of Jesus who desires to replace the GOD of the Old Testament with Jesus, this is Evil to the highest level.

    Now, as for the passages that suggest GOD Speaking in the New Testament we have a problem. This passage contradicts the scenery that is presented in the New Testament.

    Deut:18:16: According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

    This means Jesus had to be the only person to see, hear and experience the Voice of GOD as Jesus being of the Children of Israel as stated, he would have also been subject to the agreement made in Deut:18:16. Thus the true situation is Jesus told his followers this story of GOD introducing him as HIS Son after he was baptized. This is the only way one can view those passages without them violating the Word of GOD. Other people outside of Jesus could not have seen, heard or experienced the Voice and Image of GOD.

    Jer:11:20: But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.

    Jer:20:12: But, O LORD of hosts, that triest the righteous, and seest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I opened my cause.

    Jer:46:10: For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

    GOD revealed to Jeremiah his day of vengeance upon Israel, Judah and Kemet. Thus the prophesy of Isaiah 53:1 was fulfilled. It was Jeremiah that saw the final defeat and conquering, dispersion and enslavement of the people of the Old Testament, us.
    Jeremiah was the only witness to his death and resurrection. Once he was in the dungeon alone no one else can tell you what occurred except Jeremiah himself.

    Lam:3:53: They have cut off my life in the dungeon, and cast a stone upon me.

    Lam:3:58: O Lord, thou hast pleaded the causes of my soul; thou hast redeemed my life.


    We are jumping ahead because I wanted to take Isaiah 53 line by line. But this would be the line you are referring to.

    Isa:53:10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    English Bible:

    Yet it pleased the Lord to crush him by sickness; if his soul shall consider it a reward for guilt, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the purpose of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

    This is a web page that contains the Hebrew Text in which you can cut and paste the actual Hebrew and paste it into a translator.
    http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm

    This is a web page that has a Hebrew to English translator, but you can use any translator you want.
    http://milon.morfix.co.il/Default.aspx

    Take each Hebrew word and plug it into a translator so that you can began to perceive for yourself the true meaning of the passage.

    After you have done this we can talk about what you have found.
     
  8. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Continuing Isa 53 analysis:


    2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.


    Understanding of who it is referring to.

    Jer 1:
    4: Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    Notice Jeremiah explains to the reader that the Words are coming directly from GOD. The prophets of the Old Testament were equivalent to what we call today street bums and homeless people. With this appearance the prophets were also loud, boisterous and extremely expressive, just like ministers are today.

    Thus this is the mental picture drawn by the description of the person(s) Isaiah is prophesying about. Imagine the people of Israel and Judah going about their everyday life dressed in their finest of clothing going about their everyday business such as going to the market or selling pottery going up and down in the streets of the city. Within this same image you have a Prophet of GOD standing on the street corner or in the city gates yelling, spiting and ministering the Word of GOD. At these times the citizens of the city were not paying the tenth, thus the Prophets became poor or surviving on scraps. Also the prophets didn’t shave or groom themselves. So we have this person (bum) standing in the midst of the city hoping and hollering about the destruction to come and acting out what GOD has informed him to do.

    We can see one Prophet depicted as eating cows dung.

    Ezek:4:12: And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

    Ezek:4:15: Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith.

    Imagine this bum (Prophet) standing in the midst of the city or in the gates of the city cooking and eating poop. He is unshaven, loud, yelling and spitting at the people while having poop dribbling from his beard.

    That is the image prophesied about by Isaiah he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
    More support for this being the demeanor of the Prophet.

    2Kgs:9:11: Then Jehu came forth to the servants of his lord: and one said unto him, Is all well? wherefore came this mad fellow to thee? And he said unto them, Ye know the man, and his communication.

    The Prophets became considered as mad (crazy) people that no one wanted to deal with.

    Jesus did not fit these description in any way.
     
  9. skrybble7

    skrybble7 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I think I see a clear point of disagreement that may or may not make this discussion moot.
    You require a “Thus saith the Lord” qualification in order to believe that the Lord is speaking. I don’t know exactly what your basis is for believing this to be the exclusive indicator that God is speaking.

    On the other hand, I believe as it is written in the same book, that Jesus is the Word of God. So if He is the Word of God it stands to reason that each time Jesus speaks, God is in fact speaking. So on the basis of scripture, I know Jesus to be the Word of God.

    Given this, I refer back to your question, “What did God reveal to Jesus?”
    I would say God revealed to Jesus everything that came out of Jesus mouth throughout the whole New Testament. Every parable, every prophesy, every expounding of the law, every miracle, and surely the crucifixion that He suffered on our behalf just as Isaiah described.

    However if the case is that you do not believe in the new testament than there is no point in this particular discussion to deal with the new testament.

    Again, I ask exactly what indication was there that Jeremiah died for our sins?
    I see that you require absolute strict adherence to the explicit “thus saith the Lord”
    In order to believe the Word of God, yet no such standard is applied to this believed death and resurrection of Jeremiah. Nothing that you have sited actually shows he died and was resurrected. Let alone that he died for our sins.
    You say that only Jeremiah himself can tell us what happened. I say that he did tell us.
    Jeremiah wrote the book Jeremiah. And it explicitly says that he did not die.
    You make reference to lamentations and site figurative, poetic speech as an explicit declaration of his death and resurrection. But I’ve shown you were that figure of speech was used elsewhere by others and clearly did not mean what you claim.
    Do you believe King David died and was resurrected? Psalms is FULL of that poetic language.
    So the focal point of my initiating this discussion with you is to establish weather or not Jeremiah died and what’s more, that he died for our sins. Isaiah does not bare this out.
    If you have a figurative statement in Lamentations and a literal statement in Jeremiah(both of which Jeremiah wrote) which carries more weight?

    Also I’m sure I’ll find those translation sites very interesting if not very useful.
    God bless
     
  10. SAMURAI36

    SAMURAI36 Banned MEMBER

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    Of course, but why bother? :boring:
     
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