Black People : Problems Between Pastor Ray Hagins and Ashra Kwesi

brown_h0rnet

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Bro. H0rnet:

So long as it is understood that we need to come together, and refuse to come together, nothing more to say about that. I remember a few years ago a professor of mine during my freshman year of college used to always say something to the effect of “black people will never come together as a people, so drop the attempts to unite [Americanized] Afrikans nationwide. I’d get upset and tell him “just watch…we will rise above our circumstances and unite.” It kills me that today I can feel him saying “I told you so.

Anyhow-
The only way your professor can say that "I told you so" is when Never becomes past tense.


Understood – and on that note, let me ask you this:
Do you feel as though we as a people truly understand the meaning of Leadership, let alone having the knowledge necessary and sound judgment to the point where we can choose Leaders? Whether it affects Afrikans or not, there have been a number of people who have said, “the masses are never right.” Think about that, and tell me what qualifies the people to decide who should lead or not lead, especially when they are so disorganized to the point where they cannot even lead their own street blocks!
A Leader is a person who has followers. If you take the followers away, then that person is no longer a leader.

Therefore... The only people who have the power to make a leader a leader, are the masses. That is what qualifies the people. That is the only way it can be.

As far as understanding leadership, I think that most of us DO have a good understanding of leadership (or at least we recognize a real one when we see one). Let me explain.

In the past We had some very Strong Leaders. The reason that they were strong leaders is NOT because they were the greatest historians, NOT because they were the greatest healers, NOT because they were the best teachers... They were the best at LEADING. They were not only charismatic, but they were organizers who put together MOVEMENTS. But what happened?

They got KILLED! Every last one of them. We don't really have the answers (or... are not willing to come to grips with them) on who killed them.

So... Now, the only ones left are our scholars/teachers/healers. So we anoint them cause aint nobody else to anoint!

And nobody really wants to step up and be the one man superstar against the BEAST because they Don't want to get Malcolm X-ified, MLK'ed, Black Pantherized, and Khalid Muhammeded.

This is one of the reasons that I was saying earlier that we don't need to anoint "leaders" anyway. Because then, "they" can take out the one leader and the movement will stop! We need a mass movement. We OF COURSE need to be organized collectively, and of course, any type of organization has to have leadership on at least a small scale, but the one man shows aint cuttin it.

But... back to your original question about choosing leaders. If we aren't qualified to choose our own leaders, then what should we do, Let White People Do it? :SuN013: Not trying to imply that this has already been done :)


If that is the case, once again, we would not have leaders. Everyone is hue-man, therefore having hue0man tendencies. They will say the wrong things, do the wrong things, act the wrong way; this will happen on occasion. We even thought Barack Obama was that type that would be careful of his speech, communication and overall delivery style, only to find that he’s been using Hypnotic techniques on people. So again, as far as I am concerned, unless we get an alien or robot (well-programmed at that), we will never see or have an actual ‘leader.’ As for those who fail the class…ditto…
A leader can't be and doesn't have to be perfect, but refusing to speak because someone you are at odds with is at an event... or gettin mad and telling the Afrikan community not to support a scholar who has raised the consciousness of many people (long before you were thought of in the business), and then following it up with "I'm gonna go to the White Boy and have you prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law..." and "don't think I won't do it" is off the chain. That's why I say that they FAILED the class. You don't have to score 100%, but DAG-GUM.

Hold up – that is kind of outlandish – no there may not be people deciding to shift to Greek Philosophy. Then again, let us let the actions speak for the words. We love to say we are making progress, but time and time again the opposite is right around the corner, right up the road, and in some instances, right in front of our n
That doesn't mean that we aren't collective.

Actually, there are those of us who have found that family can be as disloyal and distrustful as we are to each other as a whole. Now granted – I lay that to rest the very minute it comes to my attention, but that does not heal the problem. I’ve known people who made it crystal clear they want isolation and separation from their own family for such-and-such a reason. Yes, they’re still family, but how do they prove it?
There are also those who have found that family can be loyal and trustful. And just because they have fights, doesn't mean that they are not still together. So...

The point I was making was that just because some people in the family fight, doesn't mean that the family is divided. What percentage of people in the Black community claim that they want isolation and separation from the Black Race or the Afrikan community for such and such reason? And if the answer is very very low, then we can't be as divided as the perception is.

As for the perception that we are divided – that goes back to our psychological enslavement. For too long have we been given deception goggles to wear and told to see things through the deceptive goggles. With them on, we see division where they is unity, and even told there is division when there is really unity. Some of us have taken the goggles off; others have not.
We are on the same page on this.


Again – in all actuality, what qualifies us to have the power to anoint people, let alone anoint ourselves? We like to dream and imagine that we have power we do not have as of yet. There is work we must do as a people if we truly want to reach the point where we can have that power.
We have the power to do what we please. We just haven't realized it yet.

Whether they are scholars, evangelists, messengers or whatever – bottom line is they have jobs to do (just like we have) and need to do it. By the way, who gives them to titles they wear – us or a higher power/authority?

We are the higher authority!


Not to change the subject (actually I feel it’s quite relevant) – but as a Messenger, do you feel that the Hon. Elijah Muhammad “took it too far” and brought on division and is not a leader for saying “white people are a race of devils?” I ask this, because it is relative to this case.
No

A brotha/sistah comes on the scene speaking words and wisdom that we all feel great energy from. With that same person, we begin to call them “Elder/God/Messenger/Teacher” so on and so forth, then when they do something “hue-man-like,” we come back and say they are not whatever title we give them; they are such and such. What does that make the masses of us look like? The last time I explained this, it was taken the wrong way, so I had to be specific.
An employer brings a person in for an interview. They feel great energy from that person. So they decide to hire the person and give him/her a title. Then the person does something crazy that threatens the business. Now, the employer fires the person and says they are no longer the title they gave them. What does that make the employer look like?

Someone who is trying to have the best business! We have the divine right to do the same.

About his actions and why, you are correct, but guess what bruh – much more of this is to come. So long as we continue to give them the impression that they can conduct themselves in that manner, the use of influence the wrong way will continue. Again, we as the masses have work to do, and if we do not want to do it, then karma will do its work on us.
Agreed

Well for Kwesi, what I do know is Hagins is not the first person to go at it with Kwesi over multimedia sales. I will not mention who, but Kwesi has had other scenarios where he and someone were at odds over his work. That is something he needs to deal with, with them. You see, I don’t know Bro. Kwesi that well, but I seen some of his work, and I admire it. Further, some of the brothas who pointed me in the right direction as it pertains to knowing who I truly am, they started out with Kwesi, so I do not dislike him. However, I feel that if he is to continue putting his lectures out for us, he ought to be more civil in dealing with us as a people – whether it’s Hagins, Seti, you, me, whoever. Otherwise, we will not get anywhere – much work done, but will we get ahead and go backward with it?
I agree that Kwesi should be more civil. I also believe (as I have explained) that Hagans messed up. But why do you say, "Otherwise, we will not get anywhere"?? Will we get anywhere if Hagins and Kwesi end the beef and start acting civil?

NO!... Why? Because neither Hagins or Kwesi, are TAKING US ANYWHERE. They are Scholars... who are disseminating information! And that information is there to raise our consciousness. While both Hagins and Kwesi are doing some beautiful things, what MASS MOVEMENT are they providing that is breaking down the power structure of the G.W.S. Matrix? None! So whether they have beef has nothing to do with where we go. You feel me?

The point I'm making is this. The INFO that Kwesi has put out is great. The INFO that Hagins has put out is great. And we as the Masses can take this information and raise our knowledge of self. But it is on the masses to take this to the next level and APPLY this knowledge to beat our enemy.
 

KWABENA

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The only way your professor can say that "I told you so" is when Never becomes past tense.
Perhaps.

A Leader is a person who has followers. If you take the followers away, then that person is no longer a leader. Therefore... The only people who have the power to make a leader a leader, are the masses. That is what qualifies the people. That is the only way it can be. As far as understanding leadership, I think that most of us DO have a good understanding of leadership (or at least we recognize a real one when we see one). Let me explain. In the past We had some very Strong Leaders. The reason that they were strong leaders is NOT because they were the greatest historians, NOT because they were the greatest healers, NOT because they were the best teachers... They were the best at LEADING. They were not only charismatic, but they were organizers who put together MOVEMENTS. But what happened? They got KILLED! Every last one of them. We don't really have the answers (or... are not willing to come to grips with them) on who killed them.
Two things about this:

(1) After their passing-on, how many of us “followers” carried the torch?
(2) When they first came forth with their efforts, did we follow them then, or go against what they did and represented?

So... Now, the only ones left are our scholars/teachers/healers. So we anoint them cause aint nobody else to anoint! And nobody really wants to step up and be the one man superstar against the BEAST because they Don't want to get Malcolm X-ified, MLK'ed, Black Pantherized, and Khalid Muhammeded. This is one of the reasons that I was saying earlier that we don't need to anoint "leaders" anyway. Because then, "they" can take out the one leader and the movement will stop! We need a mass movement. We OF COURSE need to be organized collectively, and of course, any type of organization has to have leadership on at least a small scale, but the one man shows aint cuttin it.
Perhaps in the context of what you are saying, it would be safe to say that they are doing their 'Ancestral Assignments.' Are the masses of our people performing their Ancestral Assignments as well, or sitting back and watching others perform their assignments? Do we even know what they are to begin with?

Many of us do not want to end up like our martyrs, but how many of us are doing something relative to what they did? That goes without saying – we direct more emphasis and energy toward criticizing them for what they did, as opposed to continue what they did. Sure, we thought of MLK to be a great leader, but not so great to the point where we would travel the nation (and the world) practicing and preaching non-violence. Would we, today, unite with white folks and advocate further integration and assimilation between each other?

We still need to resolve things such as Black man-woman relations before we could ever organize and galvanize a mass movement. Many of the things we do not want to talk about and/or discuss are some of the most crucial parts of our struggle as a people. Things like single-parent households, the sexual orientation confusion, personal health, keeping our immediate family legacies and traditions alive – these are the things that must come before the mass movement, if there ever was to be one. We could deny it if we want, but just look at what it took for us to be divided as a people in the first place.

But... back to your original question about choosing leaders. If we aren't qualified to choose our own leaders, then what should we do, Let White People Do it? Not trying to imply that this has already been done
Ummm...I thought they were already choosing our leaders. Did we bring Obama on the scene, or did they bring him on? Oh – and don't let me get started on religious leaders! Bottom line – they have been picking and choosing people to lead us for quite some time. We the previously-mentioned is done followed by the mass movement, hopefully this will come to an end.

A leader can't be and doesn't have to be perfect, but refusing to speak because someone you are at odds with is at an event... or gettin mad and telling the Afrikan community not to support a scholar who has raised the consciousness of many people (long before you were thought of in the business), and then following it up with "I'm gonna go to the White Boy and have you prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law..." and "don't think I won't do it" is off the chain. That's why I say that they FAILED the class. You don't have to score 100%, but DAG-GUM.
Clear and understood. I actually agree, and can not have said anything better.

There are also those who have found that family can be loyal and trustful. And just because they have fights, doesn't mean that they are not still together. So... The point I was making was that just because some people in the family fight, doesn't mean that the family is divided. What percentage of people in the Black community claim that they want isolation and separation from the Black Race or the Afrikan community for such and such reason? And if the answer is very very low, then we can't be as divided as the perception is.
Point taken.

We have the power to do what we please. We just haven't realized it yet.
I agree, but wonder what it will taken to improve this...

We are the higher authority!
We can say it, but how do we prove it?

An employer brings a person in for an interview. They feel great energy from that person. So they decide to hire the person and give him/her a title. Then the person does something crazy that threatens the business. Now, the employer fires the person and says they are no longer the title they gave them. What does that make the employer look like? Someone who is trying to have the best business! We have the divine right to do the same.
Good point, but we should not need to stoop to that level. Inasmuch as we have the 'divine right' to do the same, we also have the divine ability to deal with our problems reasonably, without casting people to the outside.

I agree that Kwesi should be more civil. I also believe (as I have explained) that Hagans messed up. But why do you say, "Otherwise, we will not get anywhere"?? Will we get anywhere if Hagins and Kwesi end the beef and start acting civil? NO!... Why? Because neither Hagins or Kwesi, are TAKING US ANYWHERE. They are Scholars... who are disseminating information! And that information is there to raise our consciousness. While both Hagins and Kwesi are doing some beautiful things, what MASS MOVEMENT are they providing that is breaking down the power structure of the G.W.S. Matrix? None! So whether they have beef has nothing to do with where we go. You feel me?
Understood.

e point I'm making is this. The INFO that Kwesi has put out is great. The INFO that Hagins has put out is great. And we as the Masses can take this information and raise our knowledge of self. But it is on the masses to take this to the next level and APPLY this knowledge to beat our enemy.
Exactly, and this is possible in conjunction with our mass movement.

KWABENA
 

brown_h0rnet

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Sorry for the late response

Two things about this:

(1) After their passing-on, how many of us “followers” carried the torch?
(2) When they first came forth with their efforts, did we follow them then, or go against what they did and represented?
1. Not many, because they didn't want to end up like the leaders.
2. Each leader had their "followers" from the start.



Perhaps in the context of what you are saying, it would be safe to say that they are doing their 'Ancestral Assignments.' Are the masses of our people performing their Ancestral Assignments as well, or sitting back and watching others perform their assignments? Do we even know what they are to begin with?
Generally speaking, the masses of us don't.

Many of us do not want to end up like our martyrs, but how many of us are doing something relative to what they did? That goes without saying – we direct more emphasis and energy toward criticizing them for what they did, as opposed to continue what they did. Sure, we thought of MLK to be a great leader, but not so great to the point where we would travel the nation (and the world) practicing and preaching non-violence. Would we, today, unite with white folks and advocate further integration and assimilation between each other?
Well, I guess that would be a question for those who believe that further integration and assimilation is the answer for us.

We still need to resolve things such as Black man-woman relations before we could ever organize and galvanize a mass movement. Many of the things we do not want to talk about and/or discuss are some of the most crucial parts of our struggle as a people. Things like single-parent households, the sexual orientation confusion, personal health, keeping our immediate family legacies and traditions alive – these are the things that must come before the mass movement, if there ever was to be one. We could deny it if we want, but just look at what it took for us to be divided as a people in the first place.
So True!!

Ummm...I thought they were already choosing our leaders. Did we bring Obama on the scene, or did they bring him on? Oh – and don't let me get started on religious leaders! Bottom line – they have been picking and choosing people to lead us for quite some time. We the previously-mentioned is done followed by the mass movement, hopefully this will come to an end.
LOL... yeah, I know they have been choosing our leaders. But you know, I wasn't trying to say nuttin, cause people get upset an even indignant when you say it. This is one of the things that we as Black people have not learned to DEAL with yet.

My comment
We have the power to do what we please. We just haven't realized it yet.
Your Response
I agree, but wonder what it will taken to improve this...
I think that this is what our "scholars" are really here for. To raise the consciousness levels until eventually we realize how powerful we are. It is on us to then use that power to free our selves.

Now, how long will that process take? I don't know... but, ... it is happening.

My comment
We are the higher authority!
Your Response
We can say it, but how do we prove it?
Well, we need to stop giving our authority to "Whitey's" system. We spend all of our time trying to fix our oppressors systems instead of making our own. We GIVE AWAY what we have. But that is because we don't understand what we have. But once again that is where our scholars come in. They are to help us understand that. But that is what there role is.

My comment
An employer brings a person in for an interview. They feel great energy from that person. So they decide to hire the person and give him/her a title. Then the person does something crazy that threatens the business. Now, the employer fires the person and says they are no longer the title they gave them. What does that make the employer look like? Someone who is trying to have the best business! We have the divine right to do the same.
Your Response
Good point, but we should not need to stoop to that level. Inasmuch as we have the 'divine right' to do the same, we also have the divine ability to deal with our problems reasonably, without casting people to the outside.
Ok, I understand what you mean. I'm not talking about casting people out of the community and making them an outcast. I just mean that we have the ability to choose who we let LEAD us. And if they are failing in that regard, we have the right to... and as a matter of fact we have the responsibility to remove them from that position. Because if we leave them there, it will hinder all of us.

As a matter of fact, we need to remove some folks who are our supposed leaders right now!!
 

Omowale Jabali

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Excuse my lateness and intrusion...busy workin'...

Bro. Omowale:



I know what you are saying, but I hope you are inferring that I am making this an East v. West coast thing. What I was meaning to say was neither of them have the willpower right now to specifically "go National" with selling their work. They may have a national audience who responds to their memos, updates, and so on, but they are not so popular on the national level as it pertains to the masses of our people. In saying that, I go on to say someone in North St. Louis may know Hagins versus the sistah in Dallas. Or, the brotha in the conscious community in Cali may know Kwesi better than people in Fort Lauderdale know him. I am on Dr. Hagin's mailing list, and many of his travels are on the East coast, whereas possibly many of Ashra Kwesi's travels are often out West. Therefore, they know him better out there, and we know Hagins better over here. How often does Hagins go to the West coast, and how often does Kwesi come East? That is what I was getting at. Maybe it is because their budgets do not afford them the constant opportunities to travel across the coast, but I could be wrong.
In any event, that is what I was getting at.

KWABENA
Nah bruh...wasnt inferring anything. Its just reflective of some old differences in "logistics" which have plagued the "movement" from years and this had led to factionalism which does tend to be based on regional "differences". We just need to find ways to bridge all this. Peace.
 

KWABENA

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Nah bruh...wasnt inferring anything. Its just reflective of some old differences in "logistics" which have plagued the "movement" from years and this had led to factionalism which does tend to be based on regional "differences". We just need to find ways to bridge all this. Peace.
Indeed Big Bruh...I agree!

KWABENA
 

KWABENA

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Bro. H0rnet:

1. Not many, because they didn't want to end up like the leaders.
2. Each leader had their "followers" from the start.
1. If that is true, it is also true that to this day, we still maintain a fear of death - another thing to confront, albeit understanding that we do not know enough about Death to fear it. We do not want to end up taken down like our leaders, but want to rise high like our leaders? Again - we indeed have work to do.

2. They had their followers from the start? That's not what i've experienced. For example, it is to my understanding that many people went against King long before they decided to join hands with him. You even have those of us who went against Obama, then started to join the band-wagon as he got closer to election day. It's like how true are/were we to the causes we represent? Ya know...

Generally speaking, the masses of us don't.
...Generally speaking, i'd say this is most in part due to the fact that many of us lack a Knowledge of Self and/or lack a concept of it. When we know ourselves, we will know what our true Ancestral Assignments are, at least for starters. Not to say that Bros. Kwesi and Hagins both know their true selves, but they at least (and have shown, by the way) they have a concept of it.
Well, I guess that would be a question for those who believe that further integration and assimilation is the answer for us.
Fair enough.

LOL... yeah, I know they have been choosing our leaders. But you know, I wasn't trying to say nuttin, cause people get upset an even indignant when you say it. This is one of the things that we as Black people have not learned to DEAL with yet.
Well see - I too could have omitted saying it, but how else will we get ahead as a people except that we confront what really needs to be confronted? See above...
I think that this is what our "scholars" are really here for. To raise the consciousness levels until eventually we realize how powerful we are. It is on us to then use that power to free our selves.

Now, how long will that process take? I don't know... but, ... it is happening.
Fair enough.
Well, we need to stop giving our authority to "Whitey's" system. We spend all of our time trying to fix our oppressors systems instead of making our own. We GIVE AWAY what we have. But that is because we don't understand what we have. But once again that is where our scholars come in. They are to help us understand that. But that is what there role is.
That is much easier said than done for the simple fact that as long as we refuse to acknowledge the fact that we must pull together to achieve a common goal, we will always live the life where despite all the hype and energy that goes toward a 'For Us By Us' system and mentality, at the end of the day they rule us. Do we let them? Of course, but inasmuch as we allow their system to rule us, we similarly choose to take our feet off the pedals on our way toward Freedom and Independence as a people.
Ok, I understand what you mean. I'm not talking about casting people out of the community and making them an outcast. I just mean that we have the ability to choose who we let LEAD us. And if they are failing in that regard, we have the right to... and as a matter of fact we have the responsibility to remove them from that position. Because if we leave them there, it will hinder all of us.

As a matter of fact, we need to remove some folks who are our supposed leaders right now!!
Brotha - we are 40+ million strong! That is alot of voices representative of the by and large voice of our people (at least here in the U.S.). I cannot possibly think that all of us would be on the same page when it comes to who should lead us. This is the reason why usually you would have a select few (say 15-20 people) who will represent the multi-millions. I am not saying that we should run our system like this - heck - it would be a dream come true for me if I can have the chance to hear the voice of all of us who are in existence within these borders, but what I am saying is this is how it's been. Destee (and Groupthink, for that matter) would be an excellent start on promoting something whereby the multitude of us can be heard. In that regard, we can be as responsible as we want to be, but will we be productive and successful in working together to agree on who should lead us, and how we should be led? That is the question that our current and future actions will answer.

KWABENA
 

brown_h0rnet

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Guess whos Bizack!

1. If that is true, it is also true that to this day, we still maintain a fear of death - another thing to confront, albeit understanding that we do not know enough about Death to fear it. We do not want to end up taken down like our leaders, but want to rise high like our leaders? Again - we indeed have work to do.
Agreed

2. They had their followers from the start? That's not what i've experienced. For example, it is to my understanding that many people went against King long before they decided to join hands with him. You even have those of us who went against Obama, then started to join the band-wagon as he got closer to election day. It's like how true are/were we to the causes we represent? Ya know...


This is true, but if the leaders we are talking about didn't at least have some strong following, there would have been no bandwagon to jump on.

Now as far as Obama, you are correct. Many went against (or better yet, were skeptical about) Obama at first. But... once (s)election day came closer, people began to cave in. Why?

Well first, people don't want to be outsiders. It's hard to go against the grain. But my own personal opinion is that if the grain has been beatin yo A*** for over 2,000 years, then you gotta do what you gotta do. How many people do you think are buck enough to do what Brotha M'bwebe Ashangi did and say, "I'm a PROUD non registered voter!" (which I commented on - Matt Mason). I got bumrushed many a times from my stance, but I stuck to it... But eventually, M'bwebe then wrote From the Plantation to the Whitehouse. And A lot of people supported him. I feel that this was what a lot of people wanted to hear.

And the second reason is.... Well... WHAT ELSE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO? After all... we HAVE to participate in these politricks. Otherwise, they will control our destiny... right?

Remember when we were talking about before? Us having "the power" but not realizing it. We are still dependent on the system of white supremacy like crack fiends to the point that we don't think we can detach ourselves from it and control our destiny outside of it. But at some point, we will (and are beginning to now) learn.

In response to
LOL... yeah, I know they have been choosing our leaders. But you know, I wasn't trying to say nuttin, cause people get upset an even indignant when you say it. This is one of the things that we as Black people have not learned to DEAL with yet.
You stated
Well see - I too could have omitted saying it, but how else will we get ahead as a people except that we confront what really needs to be confronted? See above...
I agree. But sometimes it is a catch 22. If you confront something and people disagree with it, or... don't want to deal with it, then the more you talk about it, the more you drive them away. So, I try to do like James Brown and just "Hit it and Quit it". Cause people get offended and indignant and will even feel that you are talking down to them and calling them blind and stupid.

And then there of course is the... "SEE... DAS WHY BLACK FOLK CAINT DO NUFFIN... CAUSE EIR TIME A BLACK PERSON GET IN A POSITION.... WE HATE ON THEM... WE KILLIN OURSELF" :)

OK, fine... I'm aint tryin to be no "crab in a barrel." And I'm not trying to put myself above everyone and sound like I'm Mister "know it all". I did my duty and said AND wrote about Obama AND the U.S. (S)election process long before Obama was even (s)elected. That's all I can do. Beating a dead horse won't convince anybody. People's opinion of Obama... and other leaders (for that matter) aint gown change. Even after supporting Africom and deciding to leave troops in Iraq indefinately, peoples opinions are not going to change.

But if the Grits hit the fan... whom amongst us can't say that they weren't warned?

So I'm gown from it.

And also, there are those who believe that Obama represents a "Cosmic" change and I'm not going to put my energy against that.


That is much easier said than done for the simple fact that as long as we refuse to acknowledge the fact that we must pull together to achieve a common goal, we will always live the life where despite all the hype and energy that goes toward a 'For Us By Us' system and mentality, at the end of the day they rule us. Do we let them? Of course, but inasmuch as we allow their system to rule us, we similarly choose to take our feet off the pedals on our way toward Freedom and Independence as a people.
Agreed!

Brotha - we are 40+ million strong! That is alot of voices representative of the by and large voice of our people (at least here in the U.S.). I cannot possibly think that all of us would be on the same page when it comes to who should lead us. This is the reason why usually you would have a select few (say 15-20 people) who will represent the multi-millions. I am not saying that we should run our system like this - heck - it would be a dream come true for me if I can have the chance to hear the voice of all of us who are in existence within these borders, but what I am saying is this is how it's been. Destee (and Groupthink, for that matter) would be an excellent start on promoting something whereby the multitude of us can be heard. In that regard, we can be as responsible as we want to be, but will we be productive and successful in working together to agree on who should lead us, and how we should be led? That is the question that our current and future actions will answer.
Agreed. I think it will even be even more than 15-20 people. Just like the Beast is described in the scriptures as one person, but in the physical realm is made up of countless organizations with many leaders, so will the revolution... but as for right now, only time will tell. All of our scholars are making up the "Morpheus" movement. The "Neo" movement is soon to come.
 

KWABENA

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Peace Bro. H0rnet:

First off, to encapsulate my entire post, I will mention that Bro. Keita once said in a conversation not too long ago:

...there are those of us who do not want to hear the truth. There are those of us who feel helpless to do anything about the truth....and there are those of us who are simply too beatdown and conditioned to even want to do anything about the truth. This covers a great deal of our people.
Let us keep this in mind as we proceed...

This is true, but if the leaders we are talking about didn't at least have some strong following, there would have been no bandwagon to jump on.

Now as far as Obama, you are correct. Many went against (or better yet, were skeptical about) Obama at first. But... once (s)election day came closer, people began to cave in. Why?

Well first, people don't want to be outsiders. It's hard to go against the grain. But my own personal opinion is that if the grain has been beatin yo A*** for over 2,000 years, then you gotta do what you gotta do. How many people do you think are buck enough to do what Brotha M'bwebe Ashangi did and say, "I'm a PROUD non registered voter! <http://daghettotymz.com/current/notregistered/notregistered.html>" (which I commented on - Matt Mason). I got bumrushed many a times from my stance, but I stuck to it... But eventually, M'bwebe then wrote From the Plantation to the Whitehouse <http://daghettotymz.com/current/plantation2bighouse/plantation2bighouse.html>. And A lot of people supported him. I feel that this was what a lot of people wanted to hear.
Deep down within, we feel as though we want to stay on the plantation, enjoy massa's goods and services, but then war against that with the knowledge we accumulate over the course of time. This is a psychological matter with which will not be dealt with for quite a while. We have been so conditioned to feel a sense of belonging here, that we will have the hardest time adjusting to the political climate and culture anywhere else. In saying that, I feel as though we start out by following, but then find that 'following' will do more harm than good, but then have no other choice so then we decide to follow after all. This is not something many of us will admit, especially because we have grown to stand against what we intended to follow, but it is true. After all, with little to nothing else to do and due to the fact that we do not have a strong enough political outlook to do otherwise, we will take the same bandwagons as everyone else. Meanwhile, we will not stop our stand against it.

From the big-picture, insanity is defined as doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. I will go a step further, and be specific- people are not as politically conscious as they appear to be. They do not understand politics, what it is and how it works anymore today than they did in past times. As a result, they have expected the same things from the same game, where only the players change. How can you expect change in a system not meant to change? How can you expect things to change with the same political outlook then as you have now? On that note, I will have to admit that some, only some people's political awareness have changed since past times, and they are expecting new results, but for masses - it makes no sense to keep the same awareness level and expect things to not turn out the same.

That was seeing it from further out - now to come back into the picture, people caved in as a result of realizing that they were not as aware as they thought they were. It also speaks to the fact that many times, we do not trust our own judgment. In a way it is a sign of humbleness when you could be 'curious' prior to election day, then admit that you were wrong, but how often do we become suspicious of something, then after a major event happens we keep our suspicions? All too often we give up, and "cave in." To this day, I still sense something is going to happen and most certainly trust my own judgment far more than the U.S. Government. However, that is just me; others have different viewpoints.

Bro. M'bwebe and yourself have a greater wealth of political knowledge than most people, and we all know that knowledge is one thing that can not be taken away from you. With that understanding, you have a degree of strength on your side to hold your ground, and not allow "the grain" to intimidate you. You also know that only you control your thoughts and emotions, without giving control to others outside of you, so it would not affect you being labeled "an outsider" like it will affect others. Heck - I enjoy being considered an outsider; at least I know folks are paying attention to me! lol But as you said, you do what you have to do and for whatever reason you need to do it. I am sure if folks took the time to look into the game of politricks the way Bro. M'bwebe did, he would not have to come out and say all that he said. However, it helps to get a different perspective on things, and not only did people want to hear it, but they needed to hear it just as much. That is the mark of being a great writer - telling folks what they need to hear.

And the second reason is.... Well... WHAT ELSE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO? After all... we HAVE to participate in these politricks. Otherwise, they will control our destiny... right?

Remember when we were talking about before? Us having "the power" but not realizing it. We are still dependent on the system of white supremacy like crack fiends to the point that we don't think we can detach ourselves from it and control our destiny outside of it. But at some point, we will (and are beginning to now) learn.
"What else are we supposed to do?" is a euphemism for "I don't know what to do!" (remember what Bro. Keita said) We have been so accustomed to a short-term-oriented lifestyle that many of us are not so willing to strive for something such that we must give up something we value to, over the course of time, have something most valuable! For example, how many of us will put carpool in order to save up for a bus (let alone our very own bus transit service)? When in doubt, we have always wanted to easiest way out! Some of us without choice have dealt with things the hard way for a while, but had we been more trusting and cooperative toward one another, we would reap excellent benefits. There is something we can do to obtain empowement; we just do not trust our judgment well enough to do it. In accords with the lifestyles we live today we will always cleave to white supremacy. However, time spent doing something empowering for all of us where cooperation is done at the highest level, we will see that we can overcome GWS after all!

I agree. But sometimes it is a catch 22. If you confront something and people disagree with it, or... don't want to deal with it, then the more you talk about it, the more you drive them away. So, I try to do like James Brown and just "Hit it and Quit it". Cause people get offended and indignant and will even feel that you are talking down to them and calling them blind and stupid.
This speaks to the psychological and emotional development of our people. Wow what a wonder...what will life be like if we were all open-minded welcome criticism no matter how harsh knowing that as painful as it may be, it will only result in us being better? Again, we do not live a life where we are accustomed to change on a constant basis; we are accustomed to change usually on an occasional basis. Change on a constant basis can easily lead to frustration, and we know what happens from there. Bottom line - there is no comfort like comfort, and we will not give that up for the world.
And then there of course is the... "SEE... DAS WHY BLACK FOLK CAINT DO NUFFIN... CAUSE EIR TIME A BLACK PERSON GET IN A POSITION.... WE HATE ON THEM... WE KILLIN OURSELF"
Well...are we really ready for change??? I suspect that when we talk about true change in our lives, it is the result of wishful thinking.
OK, fine... I'm aint tryin to be no "crab in a barrel." And I'm not trying to put myself above everyone and sound like I'm Mister "know it all". I did my duty and said AND wrote about Obama AND the U.S. (S)election process long before Obama was even (s)elected. That's all I can do. Beating a dead horse won't convince anybody. People's opinion of Obama... and other leaders (for that matter) aint gown change. Even after supporting Africom <http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58254&highlight=Africom> and deciding to leave troops in Iraq indefinately, peoples opinions are not going to change.

But if the Grits hit the fan... whom amongst us can't say that they weren't warned?

So I'm gown from it.

And also, there are those who believe that Obama represents a "Cosmic" change and I'm not going to put my energy against that.
Same here...my political philosophy has nothing to do with who is in office. It all has to do with my understanding of the de facto political system on this land. No matter who steps foot into office, the same 'powerful elite' have the control. Unlike us, they can plan and execute 5- 10- 15- and 20-year plans and agendas. Over the course of that time, they do not have to worry about how they will survive, and most importantly, they participate in activities that call for them to keep their powerful status. Can we say the same?
Overall, I do not need to convince anyone to see what I see politically speaking. I have concluded after enough attempts that pro or con, the consequences will be faced. As for the remainder of what I would say, Ditto..., or in your words, i'm grown from it as well.
Agreed. I think it will even be even more than 15-20 people. Just like the Beast is described in the scriptures as one person, but in the physical realm is made up of countless organizations with many leaders, so will the revolution... but as for right now, only time will tell. All of our scholars are making up the "Morpheus" movement. The "Neo" movement is soon to come.
True indeed.

KWABENA
 

nubian noir

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this really saddens me to see these two men who both have so much to offer carrying on this way. I have seen and heard both of these men speak. I have enjoyed both, however this is what happens when ego takes over.
 

KWABENA

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this really saddens me to see these two men who both have so much to offer carrying on this way. I have seen and heard both of these men speak. I have enjoyed both, however this is what happens when ego takes over.
True indeed.

What we need to do is live and learn from this experience, and ensure that Our/His-story does not repeat itself.

KWABENA
 

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Feeling good today fam...just been reading a couple of books. I think Dennis Kimbro's "Daily Motivations for African American Success" is one of the best motivational books on the market. This book has motivation for each day of the year on each page and all of these relate to your own Blackness. No matter what you're experiencing there's something in that book you could draw from. ✊
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I hope all is well with you. Much love.:love:
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