Black Sports : POUND-FOR-POUND CHAMPIONS: COULD TODAY'S GUYS COMPETE WITH CHAMPIONS OF YESTERYEAR???

Discussion in 'Black Sports' started by Isaiah, May 26, 2006.

  1. Isaiah

    Isaiah Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Well, no need to be too long-winded... I know you boxing afficianados know the question I'm asking, which is, could Roy Jones deal with Michael Spinks, Bob Foster, Eddie Mustapha Muhammad, Jose Torres???

    Could the current Heavyweight Champ deal with Ali, Louis, Liston, Walcott???

    Could the Current Welterweight champion deal with Sugah Ray Leonard or Sugah Ray Rob, or the Hitman Tommy Hearns, Beneitez, Griffith, Jose Robles???

    Could the currrent crop of Middleweights deal with Sugah Ray Rob, Jake LaMotta, Hagler, Benvenutti, Carlos Monzon???

    Could the current crop a cats at the top of the Lightweights DEAL with Hawk Pryor, Arguello, Azumah Nelson, Sandy Saddler and Wille Pep???

    Could these featherweights deal with the great Salvador Sanchez, or Wilfredo Gomez???

    Y'all get the drift... Could these guys have held their own, and why so, or why not???


    Peace!
    Isaiah
     
  2. abstract219

    abstract219 ...standing on the shoulders of giants MEMBER

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    Ok Bro Isaiah.....without revealing my true age, but this post will probably give some a idea.....

    In the heavyweight division......Not a one of these current "bum of the month" club fighters could deal with Ali in his prime. Tyson-dismissed in Round 5....Lennox Lewis--gone in round 7....George Forman would have anniliated Holyfield.......Hell, Larry Holmes or Frazier would have dispatched these current bums with ease....

    John Ruiz? A heavyweight champ? Come on. Sonny Liston's stare would end that fight quickly.

    Middleweights? Hagler would have dropped Bernard Hopkins in the 5th.

    With the welterweights, (you didnt mention Duran)....he would have disposed this current group of soft-life fighters.

    For some reason, I think the best fighters come out of poverty. Today's fighters got it too easy with scientific training, steroids, sissy-fied, over-analyized work-outs and set-up matches. Hell, the heavyweights only fight once every 2 years.....Ali and Frazier were back on their feet and in the ring, fighting 3 or 4 times a year.....Managers today wouldnt let their fighters endure that type of punishment......it's all media hype and no action.

    I believe that is why the interest in boxing has disappeared.
     
  3. Isaiah

    Isaiah Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Brother Abstract, I don't know the cats of today like I knew the fighters of yesteryear, so I am proceeding with caution, and letting you afficianados state your cases(smile!)

    Its just that I see a lot of palaver and hype surrounding these fights, and as I haven't seen the fighters, I wonder what it's all about... I remember in the day, 1970's and 1980's, that the welterweights, middleweights, and light-heavy divisions were so chock fulla wonderful fighters that belts were being changed every 6 months, or so... I thought this was a golden age for boxing until I start listening to the old-timers, and they start telling me, naw, man, the 40's and 50's was the shot, the era for great fighters...(smile!)

    Nevertheless, in the 1970's, Duran, Leonard, Hitman, Benites, Ali, Holmes, Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Monzon, Foster, Escalera, Arguello, are some of the great names that lit up the era... Many of those fighters fought on into the '80's as champions because they were youngsters(Hearns and Leonard, for example), and joined Hagler, Holmes, Tyson, Pryor, and Michael Spinks to light up that decade... And those were some of the top names, though certainly not all of them... For example, Hector Camacho, Salvador Sanchez, and Wilfredo Gomez... These were some wonderful fighters, and some are just all-time greats... I am wondering whom among the present fighters actually RATE with these afore-mentioned fighters??? Some people say the Hopkins in his prime would out=think Hagler, and own him... Honestly, I've never seen Hopkins, so I don't know...

    One thing I do know is that a lot of fighters I saw were so devastating when they weren't fighting these champions... You almost thought they'd beat the champion, but when they got in there, you saw why a Hagler and Leonard were top dogs in boxing... BTW, speaking of Manny Steward... He managed a bunch of fighters in the 1980's, like Hilmer Kenty, Milton and Donald McCrory, as well as, Thomas Hearns... I don't know, but a bunch of his fighers got clocked back in the day when they came up against the heavy hitters... Of course, that's like 25 years ago, so I think he's grown into the great trainer he is by trial and error(smile!)



    Peace!
    Isaiah
     
  4. Omowale Jabali

    Omowale Jabali The Cosmic Journeyman PREMIUM MEMBER

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    brother abstract I'm glad you posted before me because i did not want to be the first to get a beat down on this like i did the old skool/new skool basketball argument. i also was hoping brother Red would get here before me also, but here goes...

    "Today's fighters got it too easy with scientific training, steroids, sissy-fied, over-analyzed work-outs and set-up matches."

    Brother living in LA do you have any idea how much money i could have won betting against golden boy de lahoya? especially if i went to vegas. i would have needed bodyguards to get out of town with all the loot.

    I used to laugh whenever i saw "oscar" thinking this dude might be able to "outbox" me but i probably could take him easily in a "handicap match"...no holds barred!

    A few nightst ago when steven a. smith interviewed george forman his first question for george was "what's wrong with these guys today?"

    floyd mayweather has some skills...roy jones...dont know what up with him.....after these to last year i totally lost interest in boxing...

    and i aint ashamed about my age...

    I REMEBER GOING TO THE WILTERN THEATRE AND WATCHING THOSE BIG SCREEN FIGHTS WITH ALI AND FRAZIER LONG BEFORE CABLE TV...

    That was like watching Godzilla vs Mothra...TITANIC PROPORTIONS!

    Nothing...absolutely NO comparison today...

    (I must say the same for professional baseball and really am NOT pulling for Barry Bonds to break Hank Aaron's record..the only reason i give him any props is because of his relationship to my elder-IDOl Wille Mays...)

    Say hey! hey!
     
  5. $$RICH$$

    $$RICH$$ Lyon King Admin. STAFF

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    I would honestly say that the yesteryears great fighters would
    beat these today guys like raw meat in everyway class and form

    back then they was pure fighters swinging out of struggle & poverty
    and had that hard core training not like the soft tone training today
    those was fighters that will stand toe to toe .
     
  6. kemetkind

    kemetkind Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Where is brother pan when we need him?
     
  7. OmowaleX

    OmowaleX Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    brother Rich,

    I'm up early this morning and was thinking about this thread.

    Watching FSN's Beyond the Glory: Joe Frazier.

    I've seen these program's before on Ali, Foreman and Tyson but this is my first on Frazier.

    Pound for Pound. Probably the toughest next to Joe Louis. Not taking any thing from Ali but that first fight that he beat Ali was the GREATEST sports event I ever witnessed..

    The program also pointed out something that I didn't know: That Frazier was an Olympic Champ..

    Southern boy grown into manhood in Philly...real TOUGH and FEARLESS Brother..
     
  8. panafrica

    panafrica Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    For the sake of debate, I'll consider the current crop of heavyweights, to mean those who are active as of today. That being said, today's heavyweights are a sorry bunch at best. However the heavyweight division is in a period of transition, following the retirement of the last great heavyweight champion, Lennox Lewis. On Lennox Lewis, with his size, power, and boxing skill I'd confidently pick him over any heavyweight champion of the past, with the exception of Muhammed Ali and Larry Holmes (and I think he'd give those two all they could handle). I also favor Evander Holyfield over any heavyweight of the past except Ali, Holmes, and Foreman.

    Similarly I'd take Bernard Hopkins over any middleweight champion with the exception of Marvin Hagler and Sugar Ray Robinson. I also feel that Hopkins would give both Hagler and Robinson all they could handle. In fact, I dare say that Hopkins might have even beaten Robinson at middleweight. Sugar Ray Robinson at his best was a welterweight, no a middleweight. 17 of his 19 losses happened in the middleweight division. Sugar Ray Robinson was practically invincible at welterweight, but he was anything but at middleweight.

    Two lightweights I think would fare well against the old timers are Floyd Mayweather and Shane Mosley (who began his career at lightweight and was an absolute destroyer in that weight class). I also think Diego Corralles and Jose Luis Castillo could do damage to many old time champions.

    In the welterweight division I have to give a superior nod to the fighters of the 1980s. I don't see any welterweight in the last 10-15 years who I think could have beaten a Thomas Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, or Aaron Pryor. I also give a superior nod to the fighters on the 1980s in the light heavyweight division, as I think Michael Spinks would have beaten Roy Jones Jr. Bob Foster had too much power and reach for RJJr to deal with. However I give Roy the nod over Eddie Muhammed and definately over Jose Torres.
     
  9. panafrica

    panafrica Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Ali would not "destroy" either Tyson nor Lewis. Ali was far from a destroyer, he was a boxer, and all I see him doing is outboxing those two (and Tyson is the only certainty IMHO). I don't see Frazier beating either Lennox or Holyfield at all.

    No argument there.

    I highly doubt this one. Hopkins has never been stopped in his career, and Hagler failed to KO many fighters who were stopped by supposedly lessor opponents later. Hagler couldn't KO a former lightweight in Duran (who was knocked unconciously in his next fight againt Thomas Hearns), he struggled to KO John Mugabe (who was KO'd in one round against Terry Norris), and he couldn't knockdown Sugar Ray Leonard.

    Duran is one of the welterweights I'd pick many current fighters against.

    No argument there

    This was briefly touched on in the Barry Bonds thread, I don't think today's athletes are any more artificially enhanced than those in previous times. As a student of boxer history, I know 1st hand many fighters in the old days received smelling salts between rounds and other times of advantages (need I remind you of Aaron Pryor's "special bottle" during his 1st fight with Alexis Arguello). One thing that is certain though is that todays fighters in general are bigger, faster, and stronger. That fact alone does not make the "beloved" champions of old automatic locks over them.

    Joe Louis defended his title 25 times over 12 years, which averages out to 2 fights a year. Jack Dempsey, James Braddock, Floyd Patterson, and many other older champions fought even less than that. Muhammed Ali was very active, but for that matter so was a young Mike Tyson. This observation is simply not accurate.

    The primary reason for the decline in boxing as a main stream sport is not the quality of fights, but the lack of TV exposure, particularly free TV. When the public has to pay $50 to see the best fights, of course many will say forget it (myself included). Indeed for many PPVs I only watch the replay. Boxing shot itself in the foot, when they came up with the pay per view idea. However that being said, anyone who has watched the fights Showtime has put on during the last 2 years, especially the phenominal Diego Corrales-Jose Luis Castillo I, would know boxing is as good as it has ever been.
     
  10. Isaiah

    Isaiah Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Broither Pan, I gots to agree with you on Hagler... In our time we thought the brother was a destroyer - and to some extent he was... But as Leonard - and even Hearns and Duran - showed, he could be very vulnerable against a good boxer, which Hopkins is...

    Two questions I got about what you said, is that boxers are bigger, stronger, faster nowadays... How can they be bigger when fighting at the same weight classes??? Faster??? No Heavyweight is faster than Ali was, but then I never saw a Light-Heavy faster than Roy Jones, Jr.... Roy is a lot like Ray Rob, who shoulda stayed in the lower weight class, and dominated forever...

    One thing on Ray is, that he fought most of those middleweight fights after the age of 30, and up into his forties, when he needed the dough... If those fights were fought when that man was in his twenties, I doubt seriously if he'd a lost that many fights as a middleweight... Whaddya tink???(smile!)

    Lastly, Roberto Duran is the undisputed BEST lightweight champion of all times, in my humble opinion... Never saw a lighter weight class guy so totally intimidate his opponents like that guy...


    Peace!
    Isaiah
     
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