Law Forum : New York Times: Should Black And Hispanic Men Be Banned From Chatting With White Feminist Women?

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Sabine

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May 13, 2015
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Relegating the issue of male privilege to "how is black men oppressing black women" is too simplistic of a question for a very complicated issue when race and sex are intersected. If the person asking the question deign to read the article the OP posted, the black woman responded in details on how she as a black woman is oppressed by black men when it comes to the issue of sexism/misogny. The article is referenced within the linked article.

It's complicated to discuss about oppression with black men because they are oppressed racially on the one hand and yet experience the privilege of being male. Most of people on here aware of white privilege when it comes to racism so I'm not going to break it down. Web Dubios and others discussed this extensively.

I'm not going to break it all down, but I will link an article here and a snippet of male privilege list here. No matter what one race is, if one is male one has male privilege living in a patriarchal society. Of course the intersection of race, class, gender, sexual orientation, ablest, etc have an impact differently on individual men.

Here's the list from the article:
http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/


"
Obviously, there are individual exceptions to most problems discussed on the list. The existence of individual exceptions does not mean that general problems are not a concern.

Pointing out that men are privileged in no way denies that bad things happen to men. Being privileged does not mean men are given everything in life for free; being privileged does not mean that men do not work hard, do not suffer. In many cases – from a boy being bullied in school, to soldiers selecting male civilians to be executed, to male workers dying of exposure to unsafe chemicals – the sexist society that maintains male privilege also immeasurably harms boys and men.

However, although I don’t deny that men suffer, this post is focused on advantages men experience.

Several critics have also argued that the list somehow victimizes women. I disagree; pointing out problems is not the same as perpetuating them. It is not a “victimizing” position to acknowledge that injustice exists; on the contrary, without that acknowledgment it isn’t possible to fight injustice.

An internet acquaintance of mine once wrote, “The first big privilege which whites, males, people in upper economic classes, the able bodied, the straight (I think one or two of those will cover most of us) can work to alleviate is the privilege to be oblivious to privilege.” This checklist is, I hope, a step towards helping men to give up the “first big privilege.”

The Male Privilege Checklist

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true. (More).

3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.

4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).

6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. (More).

8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are.

9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question.

11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. (More).

12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press.

14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. (More).

17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. (More).

19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones.

20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented.

21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial.

24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “****,” nor is there any male counterpart to “****-bashing.” (More).

25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability. (More).

26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. (More).

27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. (More).

28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. (More).

29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a *****.

31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.)

32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he.

33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

35. The decision to hire me will not be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male.

37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me.

38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. (More).

39. If I have children with my girlfriend or wife, I can expect her to do most of the basic childcare such as changing diapers and feeding.

40. If I have children with my wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

41. Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. (More).

43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. (More).

44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” (More: 1 2).

45. Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment. (More.)

45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men. (More.)

46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege."
 

Babasola

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Oct 19, 2013
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Once again none of this constitutes Black male privilege.

What we have here are inferences of privilege based on gender. There is no solidarity between White men and Black men on the workforce. Black men are seen as a threat to white males in society, so how could this constitute having any kind of privileges

Is it a privilege to have millions of black Men being incarcerated or under the control of penal system?

How can black Men oppress black women as a collective when we don't control the courts, banks and legislature?


I think black Feminist would do better by challenging Black men in the pulpit for a start.
 

Sabine

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May 13, 2015
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Once again none of this constitutes Black male privilege.

What we have here are inferences of privilege based on gender. There is no solidarity between White men and Black men on the workforce. Black men are seen as a threat to white males in society, so how could this constitute having any kind of privileges

Is it a privilege to have millions of black Men being incarcerated or under the control of penal system?

How can black Men oppress black women as a collective when we don't control the courts, banks and legislature?


I think black Feminist would do better by challenging Black men in the pulpit for a start.

Like I said, you're conflating the issue of race and gender. Who argues against the fact that black men and non-white Hispanic men are incarcerated at a higher rate than most. I'm quite aware of the prison industrial complex and white supremacy. Of course the white males are on top in term of being the biggest oppressor in a white supremacist, imperialist, and patriarchal system.

If you live in a patriarchal system, women are oppressed unless you're like the Kogi society in the Sierra mountain of Columbia. They're the only known society that has never been colonized and their system is not patriarchal. They believe in the Divine mother and men there continually meditate to stay in balance with nature. Women are highly respected. Both men and women respect each other.

In our society now, a lot of women no matter their race worry about being harm by a man. I can't believe after reading the list it didn't make you think hmmm...perhaps I have a bit more privilege as a male in comparison to my woman counterpart. You know not worrying about getting rape in a so called free society.

Right now this debate I'm having with you guys sounds like me arguing with a white male about his white privilege. He can't see it and make every excuses why he doesn't have it. If he's a white male from a lower class, he would ask how does he have white privilege when he's struggling economically or make the excuses that Blacks and Hispanics are given welfare and they're not qualified to have the jobs they do...blah blah ad nauseam.

You also did not counter any of the points made on the list when it comes to male privilege.

I also preface that it's complicated when there's an intersection of race, gender, class etc. One can be an oppressor and oppressed at the same time.

I for one acknowledge that my treatment as an Asian woman versus a Black woman differ greatly living in a white supremacist society. To stand in solidarity with my black sister, I use my privileges as a light skin Asian to bring issues in regard to Black people to subvert the status quo. Some whites expect me to be on their side because they paint me and other Asians as so called "model minority." When I flip the script on them, it shocks them. We're both women of color, but I acknowledge the differential treatment.

I often here that black women are undesirable because they're loud and they're not supportive of their men when it comes to desirability in the dating scene. I find it absolutely ludicrous especially when it comes from other black men on why they don't date black women.

The reason why I use those examples is to show there are various nuances to oppression. It's not as cut and dry as you make it to be. From what I hear, the white media paint how there are a lot of single black mothers. I'm aware what they're doing is divisive because they focus on the black community so much but it doesn't change the fact across the board in our society no matter their race, women are responsible for the children and childcare for them if they work. Why is it always the woman's character come into question when she flip the script and never the men?

The list went in depth into this and yet you fail to see how as a male living in a patriarchal system how you're more privileged than a woman. I'm aware of the divisiveness used to divide black women and men. One by giving her a job and another to deprive a man of his self-suffiency. Some black men when feel helpless to feel powerful rape. Rape happens across the board no matter what race. Please do not tell me that rape doesn't happen to black women.

Asian men rape, Hispanic men rape, Native men rape, White men rape, and Black men rape [Don't get it twisted thinking I'm saying all men].

What do these races of men have in common? Patriarchy. Sexism. Misogny. If White men were the only one raping, then I'll rethink my framework.
 

Kemetstry

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Once again none of this constitutes Black male privilege.

What we have here are inferences of privilege based on gender. There is no solidarity between White men and Black men on the workforce. Black men are seen as a threat to white males in society, so how could this constitute having any kind of privileges

Is it a privilege to have millions of black Men being incarcerated or under the control of penal system?

How can black Men oppress black women as a collective when we don't control the courts, banks and legislature?


I think black Feminist would do better by challenging Black men in the pulpit for a start.



She cant relate to black culture in any other way than warmed over dogma. She wont admit to this





.
 

Sabine

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May 13, 2015
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She cant relate to black culture in any other way than warmed over dogma. She wont admit to this





.
Yup yup you're the great mighty gatekeeper of the black community. Exactly what dogma do I hold in regard to the black community? Seriously, what is up with folks I'm coming across lately with their reading comprehension? Ya know, it's funny how white people expect folks of color to educate them on how to stop oppressing when it's their responsibility to stop oppressing in the first place and hence educate themselves on why so many folks of color say what they say.

In the same token, women are telling men to stop oppressing them. Many black women are saying this to their men and you get verbiage like this in response. Because I'm bringing this issue to light and voicing what black women have been saying all along and because I come in the spirit of transparency [outing myself as Asian], somehow what I'm saying is not valid.

I come in peace and justice. I will fight all forms of oppression not just racial justice. No matter who you are, it helps to self-reflect.

You think this is my first rodeo when it comes to sitting across a sea of room full of white faces and talk about white privileges or room of men of all races and talk about male privileges or class issues or whatever.

Pur....lease.
 

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