Black Spirituality Religion : My Spiritual Initiated Bretheren....

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by Ralfa'il, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I'm beginning to finally understand where most of you are coming from.

    You seek KNOWLEDGE and INFORMATION about the facts of life rather than DOCTRINE and TRADITION.

    You have in a sense..."stepped back"...to examine all data and truths objectively.

    Been there, done that...so I understand.



    It's obvious you're united AGAINST.

    -againts organized religion and those who seek to promote it.




    But what are you united FOR?

    I mean, what values do you all unite on in terms of family, sex, violent behavior, work, and just the sciences of life and civilization period?

    What type of marriage arrangements do you support, what arrangements are you against?
    How do you propose keeping law and order in a society if we are blessed to get one of our own with no interferance from the enemy?



    And most importantly how can others who DO believe in structured and organized religion work with you so that we can all improve the condition of black people world wide?
     
  2. karmashines

    karmashines Banned MEMBER

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    You're right on point with the beginning portion of your post, at least in describing my point of view.

    In regard to your questions, us 'spiritual' folk share the same code of morality that religious folk do. Some of us (like me), might be slightly more secular... for example, I don't think gayness is evil, but you got 'religious' folks that are like that too.

    The main determinate of morality is your own conscious, assuming you are mentally stable and you have not become too deeply steeped in a cycle of immorality. The feeling of guilt over an action is the human instinct; it alone is an appropriate guide in determining what is right and wrong. Of course, society does play a role somewhat in what makes us feel guilty and what doesn't, but keep in mind the key word is somewhat. There are plenty of incidents of society ignores instinctual guilt to continue its practice of wicked behavior against another group of people.

    Lastly, in response to your question on how can spiritual people work with religious people? Well, if a respectful, non-judgemental dialogue like this thread is created, I don't think there would be any problems. Non-religious people get angry at religious folks cutting down their beliefs, and trying to make it seem as if their religion is the only answer. As long as respect and understanding is presented on both sides, I don't see why there the difference in the spiritual perspectives should matter.
     
  3. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Karma

    Peace sis, and thanx for you response...



    You're right on point with the beginning portion of your post, at least in describing my point of view.

    In regard to your questions, us 'spiritual' folk share the same code of morality that religious folk do. Some of us (like me), might be slightly more secular... for example, I don't think gayness is evil, but you got 'religious' folks that are like that too.



    (This statement is for Karma but others can respond)

    Why do you think we pretty much share this same code of morality?

    Because we as humans "instinctively" know right from wrong....

    Or because regardless of religion, we have all grown up in the same society under IT'S established set of morals, values, and principles that we have always accepted and never had to really think about it?


    Personally, I believe in the latter.

    I believe that the only reason most spiritual and religious (if there's a difference) people in America share the same code of ethic is because we both grew up having them ingrained in us.


    How many men in America regardless of religion have more than one wife...verse India where both Hindus and Muslims practice polygamy?


    In Europe, sex is much more open and free both heterosexually and homosexually. But in America both religious as well as non-religious women speak of sex as something sacred and value abstainance.

    How will we as black people determine right from wrong in a society of our own?/B]




    Lastly, in response to your question on how can spiritual people work with religious people? Well, if a respectful, non-judgemental dialogue like this thread is created, I don't think there would be any problems. Non-religious people get angry at religious folks cutting down their beliefs, and trying to make it seem as if their religion is the only answer. As long as respect and understanding is presented on both sides, I don't see why there the difference in the spiritual perspectives should matter

    :eek: Ha haa......so in other words, if I don't throw holy water on you and call you a bible-burning heathen...we can get along?
     
  4. SAMURAI36

    SAMURAI36 Banned MEMBER

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    PEACE RALF:



    Speaking strictly for myself, I don't think your assessment is entirely accurate.....But I do think it's a step in the right direction.

    First and foremost, I seek connection with the DIVINE......Everything else is subsequent, but no less important in the overall universal scheme of things.

    As far as family is concerned, I am all about the Nuclear family: Man, Woman and Child.

    As far as sex goes, see above.....But to clarify, Man (male) and Woman (female) is the foundation of Creation, and the Universe.

    Anything else is an aberration.

    Violent behavior has to go, since that is spawned from emotional responses of the Lower Self, and not of the Divine Intellect of the Higher Self.

    Work should be performed for the purpose of the 12 jewels of life:

    Knowledge, Wisdom, Understanding, Freedom, Justice, Equality, Food, Clothing, Shelter, Love, Peace and Happiness.

    That is the key to the science of life, and the foundation of civilization.

    Only between man and woman. And ONE man and ONE woman at that.

    I am under the mindset that a Socialist Theocracy can and will work, as it has proven to work in ancient times.

    However, just as with all things, a universal shift in mentality must take place, in order for all citizens to be willing participants.

    This in my opinion, is the best question asked thus far.

    In addition to the shift in mentality, a renewed respect for knowledge and enlightenment must be achieved and maintained IN JUNCTION WITH ONE'S RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, for the good of all parties involved.

    But above all else, please understand that Spirituality is the main goal and focus, and the axis that will keep our people civilized, moral, intelligent and peaceful.

    No one here is saying that organized religion should be abolished. Only the prejudice, ignorance, bias, lack of understanding, and lack of open-mindedness that often accompanies it/them.

    PEACE
     
  5. SAMURAI36

    SAMURAI36 Banned MEMBER

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    I personally don't feel that "secular" is an appropriate term to describe my own perspective and/or mentality, as that term is only diametrically opposing to the concept of organized religion.

    To use that term, is akin to being limited to either being a "Democrat or Republican", when neither are appropriate terms/concepts to describe my perspective.

    Generally (not speaking for all though), a spiritual person is not a secular one, as secularism acts as a stymie to spiritual growth and ascension.

    And secularism tends to be pretty lax in terms of morality.

    I also think that Spirituality as an ideal, being seen as an alternative to organized religion, is often misperceived as well--what with all the "pagan" and "magical" non-sense.

    There seems to be the misperception that spiritual people are some Hippy-type flower child free-for-alls, that believe that everything goes........ Far from the truth.

    Most native, Original people (non-whites) spiritual people are very conservative and traditional in their ideals.

    They, like myself, are very cultural people, and their culture is tied intrinsically to their spirituality.

    The latter creates (the foundation for) the former, and the former reinforces the latter.

    I could give all sorts of cultural and historical references for this (upon request), but hopefully the point is driven home here.

    But overall, I think that perception is the key.

    PEACE
     
  6. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Samurai

    Speaking strictly for myself, I don't think your assessment is entirely accurate.....But I do think it's a step in the right direction.

    The mike is yours bro...I set me straight if I'm in error.



    First and foremost, I seek connection with the DIVINE......Everything else is subsequent, but no less important in the overall universal scheme of things.

    As far as family is concerned, I am all about the Nuclear family: Man, Woman and Child.

    So you don't support polygamy or polyandry where both men and women can have more than one spouse?

    If not, why not.

    And would you tolerate it as part of our society?

    In other words, if another brother practiced it would you back-bite against him?




    As far as sex goes, see above.....But to clarify, Man (male) and Woman (female) is the foundation of Creation, and the Universe.

    Anything else is an aberration.

    OK...I can get with that.



    Violent behavior has to go, since that is spawned from emotional responses of the Lower Self, and not of the Divine Intellect of the Higher Self.

    Alright now...

    I agree with that "most" violence must go, but what about beating our children and physically punishing criminals?

    I personally think we need government sanctioned violence as a detterant to the enemy from without as well as within.



    Work should be performed for the purpose of the 12 jewels of life:

    Knowledge, Wisdom, Understanding, Freedom, Justice, Equality, Food, Clothing, Shelter, Love, Peace and Happiness.

    That is the key to the science of life, and the foundation of civilization


    Totally agree with this.



    Only between man and woman. And ONE man and ONE woman at that.

    So, you answered part of my first question.

    But you sound like George Bush...

    Why ONLY one man and one woman...why not multiple spouses for those who choose so?

    Not making it MANDATORY but PERMITTED.




    This in my opinion, is the best question asked thus far.

    In addition to the shift in mentality, a renewed respect for knowledge and enlightenment must be achieved and maintained IN JUNCTION WITH ONE'S RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, for the good of all parties involved.

    But above all else, please understand that Spirituality is the main goal and focus, and the axis that will keep our people civilized, moral, intelligent and peaceful.


    Uh oh...stop the car...


    Spirituality is the main goal FOR WHOM?

    My main goal in this life is wealth, health, family, and comfort; and Paradise in the next life.

    If spirituality is YOUR main goal I'm all for you trying to achieve it, but we can't force it on everyone can we?



    No one here is saying that organized religion should be abolished. Only the prejudice, ignorance, bias, lack of understanding, and lack of open-mindedness that often accompanies it/them.
    I totally agree with you on this one.

    Peace black...
     
  7. SAMURAI36

    SAMURAI36 Banned MEMBER

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    PEACE RALF:

    I'll comment on the things that we seem to be in slight disagreement with, since the agreeing concepts speak for themselves:

    Indeed, allow me to clarify this.....

    Every culture that practices polygamy (polyandry is rarely practiced), does so because of the reasons of necessity for doing so.

    Meaning, in most non-white societies, our women outnumber the men, sometimes as much as 7:1.

    Polygamy was created for the reason of balancing out the equation; giving healthy, qualified women a chance at participating in the Nuclear family, even by sharing a man in a legal arrangement with other women.

    However, there were numerous stipulations to this.

    First, the man had to provide equal provisions for each of the women.........Even the QUR'AN states "as much as thy right hand can possess".........Meaning, as much as he is able to provide for.

    There were other business arrangements for polygamous marriages as well; marrying for the purpose of acquiring property, protection of inheritance and physical persons, etc.

    However, far too often (especially in the Islamic world, both here in the west and in the east) I see brothers abusing this privelege.......

    And when I say privilege, I mean that the privilege is on the part of the woman, not the man, as a man taking on 3 or 4 wives, is the equivolent of someone taking on 3 or 4 full time jobs.

    Beyond digression, the privilege is abused by brothers, who use such arrangement for their own lustful purposes.......

    The women in these arrangements are not supposed to be lesbianized for the man's entertainment, much less sleep in the same bed.

    For that matter, they are not even supposed to be sleeping or living in the same household. It's a man's responsiblity to place each woman in an abode of her own, equal to that of the other women in that arrangement.

    Also, it's the man's responsibility to provide the major portion of the financial responsibilities........

    However, far too often, I see brothers not working in these cases, while the women are made to go out and earn sustenance for him, whatever children are involved, and themselves.

    This is a travesty to the original, cultural (and even religious) concepts of polygamy.

    So, to answer your Q, if a brother is abusing this custom, then yes he would be admonished--if not punished.

    Actually, I agree with all of this.

    When I said violence, I was speaking strictly of criminal violence. All of the other things are punishments, which I would define as being different, and thus allowable.

    See above.

    This is why I'm saying that I don't think you have the most appropriate understanding of just what Spirituality is.

    The irony is, all the things that you stated as your main goal, are mine as well.

    We are simply using slightly modified (though extremely similar) methods to achieve it.

    Don't your goals match the 12 jewels that I mentioned earlier?

    I sincerely think you're getting caught up in the terminology, which is a common mistake in these matters.

    We basically stated the same thing.

    PEACE
     
  8. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Samurai

    I'll comment on the things that we seem to be in slight disagreement with, since the agreeing concepts speak for themselves:

    Excellent point black






    Excuse me...

    Will one of you beautiful Daughters of Destee be so kind as to be a "scribe" and keep tab on all the values that we agree on?



    We all agree that theft is wrong.

    We all agree that lying is wrong.

    Can we all agree that men and women should be married to have children and if they aren't...those children should either be aborted or put up for adoption?
     
  9. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Sistaz:

    Keep in mind that when I'm arguing about polygamy....the same stands for polyandry.

    So the argument goes for both men AND women having multiple sexual partners...so don't get geeked.





    Samurai

    Indeed, allow me to clarify this.....

    Every culture that practices polygamy (polyandry is rarely practiced), does so because of the reasons of necessity for doing so.

    Meaning, in most non-white societies, our women outnumber the men, sometimes as much as 7:1.

    Polygamy was created for the reason of balancing out the equation; giving healthy, qualified women a chance at participating in the Nuclear family, even by sharing a man in a legal arrangement with other women.


    I totally agree with you on this one and couldn't put it any better myself.




    However, there were numerous stipulations to this.

    First, the man had to provide equal provisions for each of the women.........Even the QUR'AN states "as much as thy right hand can possess".........Meaning, as much as he is able to provide for.


    Ah...tut tut...

    The Koran doesn't say that we must treat all our wives EQUALLY...it says that if we choose to engage in polygamy we must treat all of them FAIRLY.

    There is a difference.

    Some women want sex every day, while others want it only once a week.

    Some women want a lot of shoes...other's want a lot of jewelry.

    We give them what they want when we can...and that's fair...even if it's not always equal.




    There were other business arrangements for polygamous marriages as well; marrying for the purpose of acquiring property, protection of inheritance and physical persons, etc.

    However, far too often (especially in the Islamic world, both here in the west and in the east) I see brothers abusing this privelege.......

    True.



    And when I say privilege, I mean that the privilege is on the part of the woman, not the man, as a man taking on 3 or 4 wives, is the equivolent of someone taking on 3 or 4 full time jobs.

    Beyond digression, the privilege is abused by brothers, who use such arrangement for their own lustful purposes.......

    Now outside of the Koran....who said that lust was wrong?

    Is this a spiritual concept, religious concept, or secualar concept?

    If a woman wanted more than one man strictly for sexual reasons, what would be wrong with that as long as she wasn't spreading diseases or lying?




    The women in these arrangements are not supposed to be lesbianized for the man's entertainment, much less sleep in the same bed.

    For that matter, they are not even supposed to be sleeping or living in the same household. It's a man's responsiblity to place each woman in an abode of her own, equal to that of the other women in that arrangement.

    Also, it's the man's responsibility to provide the major portion of the financial responsibilities........

    I agree with you on all of these.




    However, far too often, I see brothers not working in these cases, while the women are made to go out and earn sustenance for him, whatever children are involved, and themselves.

    This is a travesty to the original, cultural (and even religious) concepts of polygamy.

    So, to answer your Q, if a brother is abusing this custom, then yes he would be admonished--if not punished.


    I know a lot of men that abuse even MONOGAMOUS marriage.

    But my main question is...would it be permitted in your society?

    Although YOU or I may not practice it...should we judge or condemn another brutha if he does it fairly?



    Sexual sins aren't the only sins that warrant our criticizm.

    Who can say that a man marrying 10 women for lust is wrong...but a man who conjures up spirits to fortell the future is Ok?
     
  10. karmashines

    karmashines Banned MEMBER

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    I agree men and women need to be committed before having kids, but I don't agree that should pregnancy happen the child should automatically be aborted or put up for adoption. I have my own issues with abortion (though I wouldn't judge someone that decided to do it), and adoption for a black child is not the best option, because black children don't get adopted out like white and Asian kids do.
     
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