Black Spirituality Religion : Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit...not the Father.

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by Ralfa'il, Mar 26, 2005.

  1. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    In Matthew 1:18 we read:
    " Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."


    So Jesus was a child of the HOLY GHOST...and not of the Father!


    This is in line with what most Muslims believe.
     
  2. info-moetry

    info-moetry STAFF STAFF

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    Salaamu Ralfa'il,

    Here's my problem with the above statement:

    Other verses say that Jesus was not born of "a holy spirit or ghost" such as....

    Acts 2:30
    "Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne."
    Acts 13:23
    "Of this MAN's seed [David's] hath God, according to his promise, raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus."
    Rom.1:3
    "Concerning his son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." 2 Tim.2:8
    "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David ...."
    Heb.2:16
    "For verily he [Jesus] took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham."
    Rev.22:16
    "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David."[/B]

    so obviously there is a problem here, or rather another contradiction being presented within these scriptures. & if the Muslims have always known this, then why were the verses stating that Jesus was born of a physical father left out??

    - They don't call him "THE SON OF MAN" for nothing!!!!

    A-salaamu-A-laikum Ralfa'il.................
     
  3. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Info


    Salaams brutha...are you a Muslim?

    As you can see I changed the title and topic of the original thread from that of Gabriel and the Holy Spirit to that of the lineage of Jesus.

    But in response to your statement, the Bible is full of errors and contradictions and this is one of the reasons why I left Christianity.

    While claiming Jesus's father was God...the gospels trace his ancestry through JOSEPH!

    But the Koran also speaks of Mary not being touched by a man and since Allah is the One who gives life and death than I have no problem believing that Jesus was born of a virgin.

    Just like He created Adam, He created Jesus.

    As far as Jesus being of the seed of David.... his lineage as the foretold Messiah didn't necessarily have to come through his father.
    It can also come through his mother Mary.
     
  4. SAMURAI36

    SAMURAI36 Banned MEMBER

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    SALAAM AQI:

    Actually not only is this not what "most MUSLIMS" believe (the "holy ghost" is a Judeo Christian construction, of the omission of the Feminine presence from the Trinity), but also the Bible itself is in contradiction, as you stated.

    It's actually an Angle (GIBRIL to be precise) that is the seed-bearer of Christ, and not the Holy Spirit (lest we take Angels and the Holy Spirit as one and the same--convention Christian theology would tend to disagree).

    The Bible for the most part, is clear and plain about bloodlines and descendancies, whether it be in the Old Testament, or the New.

    In Genesis 6:4, we find:

    "..........When the sons of God came into the daughters of men, and they bare children to them........."

    What does this mean?

    Or Genesis 16:4,

    "And he (Abraham) went in unto Hagar, and she conceived...

    What does this mean to you?

    For most of us, this means that the men in question had sexual penetration with the women in question, and conceived a child(ren). There are numerous examples of this all throughout the OT.

    Does anyone here disagree?

    If not, then let us further examine the NT:

    Luke 1:26.....

    "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth."

    Here, we see GIBRIL (Gabriel) on a mission from God--Not the "Holy Ghost" (there was no such concept prior to the birth of Christ).

    Speaking of the Birth of Christ, this verse states that he was conceived on the 6TH MONTH, which would be JUNE..........How then would he have been born on DECEMBER 25TH?

    Luke 1:27.........

    "To a Virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; The virgin's name was Mary."

    It is of importance to note, that the concept of Virginity was important, simply because Mary was a young girl at the time. It has no other significance to the story, despite Christian theology's attempts to make it such.

    Saying "virgin" was the same for the people at that time, as saying "young maiden" in Medival Europe.

    A young girl at that age is expected to be a virgin at that age, and if she is not, then she is punished, and the taker of her virginity is sought out, and forced to marry her, because no one else will.

    All of this is contextual info that is very important to the story.

    Luke 1:28......

    "And the angel came in unto her, and said Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee: blessed art though among women."

    So here, I ask you, what just took place here? Is this not the same series of events that took place in the verses from Genesis?

    As plain as day, the Bible (KJV) states that the angel (Gabriel) had sex with Mary. No more, no less.

    We then move past the brief discourse between Mary and GIBRIL, to Luke 1:31....

    "And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus".

    Thus, from a procession of events, we see that the angel Gabriel impregnated the young girl Mary.

    The question then becomes whether we view Gabriel as just a man (heavily fortified with Spiritual knowledge, but a man nonetheless), or some other-worldly being.

    And also whether we merge the concepts of angels with "Holy Ghosts" or not.

    Otherwise, there was little to nothing "immaculate" about this conception......Unless of course we view all conceptions as "immaculate".

    HOTEPU
     
  5. SAMURAI36

    SAMURAI36 Banned MEMBER

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    Actually, JOESPH was the seed of David, through which Jesus was begotten.

    Mary and her family (read Luke1:5) were LEVITES, not JUDAHITES.
    JUDAH was the tribe from which David came from.

    HOTEPU.
     
  6. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Samurai

    Salaams

    I'm not quite clear on all of what you said...

    But you provided so much scriptural evidence, I'm almost sure I agree with it.
     
  7. Angela22

    Angela22 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    The Holy Son was of the Holy Spirit, yes, but was sent of the Father, who created all. He is the Son of the Father, as He has taught us. The Holy Scriptures would not show otherwise, for it is the Father's Word.

    His Word is our salvation, by the sacrifice of the Son as was prophesied, and He'll bring all of His children forth to redemption forevermore with His Son, all having life eternal just as He does after His resurrection from the dead.

    Those of faith and belief in His works and teachings know that the Holy Doctrine only shows us light and life, while those who aren't of the faith will be able to make no sense of it, because they refuse to believe. For those who seek confusion, it becomes theirs to have. But the Father grants wisdom to those who seek her out.
     
  8. willa

    willa Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    The Holy Spirit is a facilitator between God and man. It is through the Holy Spirit that angels who are spirit are able to speak to us, ( a tongue of angels). It is through the Holy Spirit that gifts come to us, understanding in the scriptures, warnings to protect us and guidance, healing, sudden wisdom, etc. It is through the Holy Spirit that men are able to withstand the Glory of God and speak to Him face to face as did Moses and other of the prophets. It is also through the Holy Spirit that visions are given and men could not stand the glory of Angels except through the power of the Holy Spirit to buffer their glory. There are three distinct and separate individuals who are Gods, The Father who is GOD, who reigns as supreme over Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. There is Jehovah, in spirit, by whom the worlds are created;who was that rock and God who followed Israel in the wilderness doing miracles for them and was later born into flesh as Jesus Christ. And, there is the Holy Ghost (Spirit) who is the third member of GOD's ordained to work among all the children of men, giving heavenly help to each for the Father. Call it a Presidency for understanding the structure. It is by this God who remains a spirit so he may more easily move, even with power and gifts to mankind.

    Now, you will more easily understand this verse Luke 1: 35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee (facilitate), and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee" (The Father shall present thee with His only begotten), a seed of GOD in a spectacular flash of spiritual power, and mary was pregnant and that which was born of her was the Son of God. It would be wonderful if couples needing invetro fertilization could be pregnant in a flash of let's say as an example, lightning.

    Mary is of David's linage; therefore, so was Jesus.
     
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