Black Spirituality Religion : Islam Can Not Be the Perfect Religion...

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by A007, Apr 18, 2003.

  1. A007

    A007 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    According to the Qur’an, ‘Isa was the Messiah. He was supported by the ‘Holy Spirit’. (Al-Baqarah 2:87; Al-Ma’idah 5:110)

    Messiah=Saviour yet most Muslims believe that Jesus(Isa) was simply a prophet in order to worship Muhammed as his equal.

    Muslims should not take Christians or Jews for friends. (Al-Ma’idah 5:51) They must fight against Christians and Jews who refuse Islam until they surrender, pay the poll-tax and are humiliated. (At-Taubah 9:29) To this may be added hundreds of Qur’anic verses on the subject of jihad in the path of Allah, as well as the ‘Book of Jihad’ found in all Hadith collections.

    What faith that professes to be perfect would teach its followers to disassociate and even FIGHT against someone else because they do not believe the same?

    Isa not an historical figure

    The Qur’an’s ‘Isa is not an historical figure. His identity and role as a prophet of Islam is based solely on supposed revelations to Muhammad over half a millennium after the Jesus of history lived and died.

    Jesus’ name was never ‘Isa

    Jesus’ mother tongue was Aramaic. In his own lifetime he was called Yeshua in Aramaic, and Jesu in Greek. This is like calling the same person John when speaking English and Jean when speaking French: Jesu, pronounced "Yesoo", is the Greek form of Aramaic Yeshua. (The final -s in Jesu-s is a Greek grammatical ending.) Yeshua is itself a form of Hebrew Yehoshua’, which means ‘the Lord is salvation’. However Yehoshua’ is normally given in English as Joshua. So Joshua and Jesus are variants of the same name.

    It is interesting that Jesus' name Yehoshua’ contains within it the proper Hebrew name for God, the first syllable Yeh- being short for YHWH ‘the LORD’.

    Yeshua of Nazareth was never called ‘Isa, the name the Qur’an gives to him. Arab-speaking Christians refer to Jesus as Yasou’ (from Yeshua) not ‘Isa.

    Jesus did not receive a ‘book’

    According to the Qur’an, the ‘book’ revealed to ‘Isa was the Injil. The word Injil is a corrupted form of the Greek euanggelion ‘good news’ or gospel. What was this euanggelion? This was just how Jesus referred to his message: as good news. The expression euanggelion did not refer to a fixed revealed text, and there is absolutely no evidence that Jesus received a ‘book’ of revelation from God.

    The ‘gospels’ of the Bible are biographies

    The term euanggelion later came to be used as a title for the four biographies of Jesus written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the ‘gospels’. This was a secondary development of meaning. Apparently this is where Muhammad got his mistaken idea of the Injil being a ‘book’.

    Most so-called prophets of Islam received no book

    Virtually all of the so-called ‘prophets’ of Islam, whose names are taken from the Hebrew scriptures, received no ‘book’ or law code. For example, the Psalms are not a book revealing Islam, as the Qur’an claims, but a collection of songs of worship, only some of which are David’s. There is not a shred of evidence in the Biblical history of David that he received a book of laws for the Israelites. They already had the Torah of Moses to follow. So David was not a prophet in the Qur’an’s sense of this word. Likewise most of the prophets claimed by Islam were neither lawgivers nor rulers.

    Biblical prophecy and Islamic prophecy are not the same thing

    The Biblical understanding of prophecy is quite different from Muhammad’s. A Biblical prophecy is not regarded as a passage from a heavenly eternally pre-existent text like the Qur’an, but a message from God for a specific time and place. A biblical prophet is someone to whom God reveals hidden things, and who then acts as God’s verbal agent. When a Samaritan woman called Jesus a prophet (John 4:19) it was because he had spoken about things in her life that he could only have known supernaturally. Christianity teaches that Jesus was a prophet, but he brought no ‘book’: he himself was the living ‘Word of God’, a title used of ‘Isa in the Qur’an.

    By no means all prophecies referred to in the Bible became part of the Biblical text. The Bible consists of a wide variety of materials originally written for many different purposes, including letters, songs, love poetry, historical narratives, legal texts, proverbial wisdom as well as prophetic passages. These are regarded as inspired by God, but not dictated from a timeless heavenly book.

    As prophetic history, the Qur’an contains many errors and anachronisms

    The claim that Jesus was not executed by crucifixion is without any historical support. One of the things that all the early sources agree on is Jesus’ crucifixion.

    Mariam the mother of ‘Isa is called a sister of Aaron, and also the daughter of Aaron’s father ‘Imran (Hebr. Amram). Clearly Muhammad has confused Mary (Hebr. Miriam) with Miriam of the Exodus. The two lived more than a thousand years apart!

    In the Bible Haman is the minister of Ahasuerus in Media and Persia (The Book of Esther 3:1-2). Yet the Qur’an places him over a thousand years earlier, as a minister of Pharoah in Egypt.

    The claim that Christians believe in three Gods — Father, son Jesus and mother Mary — is mistaken. The Qur’an is also mistaken to claim that Jews say Ezra was a son of God. (At-Taubah 9:30) The charge of polytheism against Christianity and Judaism is ill-informed and false. (Deuteronomy 6:4, James 2:19a)

    The story of the ‘two horned one’ (Al-Kahf 18:82 cf also Daniel 8:3, 20-21) is derived from the Romance of Alexander. Certainly Alexander the Great was no Muslim.

    The problem with the name ‘Isa has already been discussed. Other Biblical names are also misunderstood in the Qur’an, and their meanings lost. For example Elisha, which means ‘God is salvation’, is given in the Qur’an as al-Yash’a, turning El ‘God’ into al- ‘the’. (Islamic tradition did the same to Alexander the Great, calling him al-Iskandar ‘the Iskander’). Abraham ‘Father of many’ (cf Genesis 17:5) might have been better represented as something like Aburahim ‘father of mercy’ instead of Ibrahim, which has no meaning in Arabic at all.

    The Qur’an has a Samaritan making the golden calf, which was worshipped by the Israelites in the wilderness (Ta Ha 20:85) during the Exodus. In fact it was Aaron (Exodus 34:1-6). The Samaritans did not exist until several centuries later. They were descendants of the northern Israelites centuries after the Exodus.

    Many Qur’anic stories can be traced to Jewish and Christian folktales and other apocryphal literature. For example a story of Abraham destroying idols (As-Saffat 37) is found in a Jewish folktale, the Midrash Rabbah. The Qur’anic story of Zachariah, father of John the Baptist, is based upon a second-century Christian fable. The story of Jesus being born under a palm tree is also based on a late fable, as is the story of Jesus making clay birds come alive. Everything the Qur’an says about the life of Jesus which is not found in the Bible can be traced to fables composed more than a hundred years after Jesus’ death.

    Jesus’ titles of Messiah and Word of God, which the Qur’an uses, find no explanation in the Qur’an. Yet in the Bible, from which they are taken, these titles are well integrated in a whole theological system.

    The Qur’an mentions the Holy Spirit in connection with Jesus, using phrases which come from the gospels. Ibn Ishaq (Life of Muhammad) reports Muhammad as saying that this ‘Spirit’ was the angel Gabriel (cf also An-Nahl 16:102, Al-Baqarah 2:97). However the Biblical phrase ‘Spirit of God’ (Ruach Elohim) or ‘Holy Spirit’ can only be understood in light of the Hebrew scriptures. It certainly does not refer to an angel.

    Jesus’ alleged foretelling of Muhammad’s coming (As-Saff 61:6) appears to be based on a garbled reading of John 14:26, a passage which in fact refers to the Spirit.

    The Hebrew scriptures were Jesus’ Bible. He affirmed their authority and reliability and preached from them. From these same scriptures he knew God as Adonai Elohim, the Lord God of Israel. He did not call God Allah, which appears to have been the name or title of a pagan Arabian deity worshipped in Mecca before Muhammad. Muhammad's pagan father, who died before Muhammad was born, already bore the name ‘Abd Allah ‘slave of Allah’, and his uncle was called Obeid Allah.

    We read that An-Najm 53:19-23 seeks to refute the pagan Arab belief that Allah had daughters named al-Uzza, al-Ilat and Manat. (See also An-Nahl 16:57 and Al-An’am 6:100).

    The Biblical narratives are rich with historical details, many confirmed by archaeology. They cover more than a thousand years, and reveal a long process of technological and cultural development. In contrast the Qur’an’s sacred history is devoid of archaeological support. Its fragmentary and disjointed stories offer no authentic reflection of historical cultures. No place name from ancient Israel is mentioned, not even Jerusalem. Many of the supposed historical events reported in the Qur’an have no independent verification. For example we are told that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba in Mecca (Al-Baqarah 2:127), but this is totally without support. The Biblical account, more than a thousand years older, does not place Abraham anywhere near Arabia.

    The Qur’an is not a credible source for Biblical history

    The Qur’an, written in the 7th century CE, cannot be regarded as having any authority whatsoever to inform us about Jesus of Nazareth. It offers no evidence for its claims about biblical history. Its numerous historical errors reflect a garbled understanding of the Bible.
     
  2. A007

    A007 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Regardless of all the information that people think they have (Bible, Torah, Qur'an etc.) it is not possilbe to have 1 perfect religion and the belief that one's own faith is the only one that will provide salvation only serves to prove that particular religions' imperfection.

    We are commanded to love ALL of our brothers and sisters, not just the ones whom believe as we do.

    As for me, personally, I believe that it is possible for Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddists, or whomever else can experience God in their own way. IMHO God can not be put in a little box controlled by MAN made traditions and/or rituals. He has to be learned of through knowledge, enlightenment, and personal experience.

    I have never called anyone's faith obsurd nor will I ever. That fact that I believe that its possilbe for others to have a different (not better) interpretation of God does not diminish my faith at all. In fact it increases it, becasue it allows me to see God through others' eyes, thereby increasing my knowledge, belief, understanding, and experience...and IMHO there can only be positive rewards in becoming closer to God through others.

    "We are the sum total of our knowledge and experiences which can never be the same as another" --Socrates
     
  3. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    You didn't say what website you got that ignorant, cut-and-paste anti-Islam article from. It was written by a myopic, narrow-minded Islam-hating imbecile...and contains trite, specious and caviling ******** that is obtuse and defaming...an insult to the religion of Islam.

    You have chosen to replicate a bunch of old lies and fabrications about Islam and the Prophet that have been repugned and refuted by Muslim scholars for centuries.

    Most of your caviling discourses on Islam and the Prophet are, in addition to being erroneous, replete with lies and supercilious cacophony...
     
  4. A007

    A007 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    "You didn't say what website you got that ignorant, cut-and-paste anti-Islam article from. It was written by a myopic, narrow-minded Islam-hating imbecile...and contains trite, specious and caviling ******** that is obtuse and defaming...an insult to the religion of Islam. "

    You never state where you get your material, because it is obvious that they are not your thoughts. BTW..I don't remember which site ci got it from.


    "You have chosen to replicate a bunch of old lies and fabrications about Islam and the Prophet that have been repugned and refuted by Muslim scholars for centuries."

    Don't call them lies...prove they are. Are you saying the verses that were quoted were false?

    And why are you so upset? Have I ever cursed about any of the things that I thought were false about what you cut and pasted? If you were so convinced and faithful to your religion, there is nothing anyone could say to upset you about it, because let me assure you there is nothing you can say about mine to make me love you or anyone else less. I am secure and open. It is my prayer that you will become that way to.
     
  5. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    All of my threads and posts are my own, A007. I certainly don't have to cut-and-paste anything concerning Christianity, because I have knowledge of the religion. You have no knowledge of Islam, therefore you resort to deceitful journalism in your inept attempt to make others think you know...And I am not upset, A007...you're not qualified to do that. It's just that I have very little patience with brainless, rhetoric-spewing scripted fools who cannot respond to the topic at hand without regurgitating farcical falsehoods and vacuous sophistry...
     
  6. A007

    A007 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Yeah... Right

    All of the posts you have put on here were your thoguths???? Forgive me, but I know better.

    And FYI this was a thread...not a reply to a specific post of yours. The only reason I did it was to see how you would respond.
    You are absolutely correct when you say that I am ignorant of Islam. I have never said otherwise. IN FACT..on more than one occasion I preface my remarks with a statement about my lack of knowledge of the religion.

    As for not responding to threads...You have only to asseverate your disdain for a simple disposition of a nameless author showing that your proposed demure is a farse and that you have no intention on reaching a denouement or furthering your imaginary enlightenment.:lol:

    It really dosen't matter if you continue to attack me...:x: because it only shows you lack of ability to defend what you propose as the Perfect Religion because when faced with challenges to it you reply with anger and insults. Makes me say hmmmmmm....
     
  7. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    From the website of that cut-and-paste article you posted, A007:

    "The author of these notes is an Anglican Minister at St. Hilary’s Anglican Church Kew. He is also a senior associate of the Department of Linguistics and Applied Linguistics at the University of Melbourne, with the honorary title of Associate Professor, and was formerly head of the Department of Linguistics and Language Studies. He has written several books on the language and culture of the Acehnese, an Islamic people of Indonesia, and was elected to the Australian Academy of Humanities in 1992 for this research work. He served as a member of the Council of the Academy for a term during the 1990’s... "

    An Australian Anglican Minister! :eek:
     
  8. A007

    A007 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    :lol: ....Great...Thanks for the proof that he is not just a quack off the street whom hates Islam. So....what is your point?

    'An Australian Anglican Minister!"

    Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

    And still....you offer not rebutal to what he wrote.

    Do you dispute the verses he used? And if so..please tell why.
     
  9. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    In your zeal to prove yourself worthy, you overlooked my following statement:

    The article was written by a myopic, narrow-minded, Islam-hating imbecile...and contains trite, specious and caviling ******** that is obtuse and defaming...an insult to the religion of Islam.

    Dr. Mark Drurie, the author of the article that you cut and pasted, is an Australian Anglican minister who writes for the Muslim/Christian Dialogues website, which is white-owned and very anti-Islam. Why didn't you seek out information on Islam from Muslim scholars on Islamic websites?
     
  10. A007

    A007 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Why didn't you seek out information on Islam from Muslim scholars on Islamic websites?

    I have...and they all seem to be like you...which is when faced with questions, postitions, or opinions about their faith they get defensive, slanderous, insulting, and hateful. So..I never get straight answers to straight questions. You have had two opportunities to refute what he wrote and you have only elected to attack his charactor and/or credentials, but have yet to provide any sources for why he is wrong (including the Qur'an).


    I ask again....Do you dispute the verses he used? and if so..please tell why
     
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