Amun-Ra : Is Religion to Blame?

Discussion in 'Amun-Ra' started by Amun-Ra, Sep 21, 2001.

  1. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,868
    Likes Received:
    13
    Occupation:
    Sales Management
    Location:
    Dallas
    Ratings:
    +14
    Blaming Islam

    In the incendiary aftermath of last week’s terrorist attack, the glowing embers and coals of simmering hatred landed on human kindling have begun to fan the flames of religious bigotry. People go out of their way in the United States to avoid discussing religion, but its underlying involvement in the acts of war against the United States is undeniable.

    Islamic extremist executed a precision attack killing thousands people, shredding the hearts of thousands of families and friends and, finally, reaching into the darkest dungeons of American hearts where hatred is hidden. Those who planned the attack are sure that God has granted them a great victory, while many here wonder why God turned his back and allowed such a terrible thing to happen, but the real truth of the matter is that God had nothing to do with the events of September 11.

    Last Tuesday’s terrorist attacks were the work of people, just as the lapse in security is a result of people ignoring world events, the world around them and taking their freedom for granted. Naturally, there are those who are quick to condemn Islam because of this dastardly attack, but Islam is not the problem anymore than Christianity is the problem in Northern Ireland or Judaism in the Middle East. The problem is people.

    However, the culpability of religion cannot be ruled out. Throughout the history of mankind, religion has been a mixed blessing dividing the world into “True followers and infidels” thereby providing the groundwork for division and hatred. However, it has been people who made those distinctions and people who fell on the outside of those who believed they were the true believers have been murdered, tortured and exterminated, including members of the same faith.

    The concept of a Holy War is nothing new to religion and although Islam is in the spotlight now, other religions have a long history of intolerance and fanatical fundamentalism including Judaism and Christianity. Christianity had The Inquisition, The Crusades, witch trials and played a major role in American slavery. For all the good that religion has done, much of it is outweighed by the tonnage of carnage committed in its name by—people. That is the key.

    Once it becomes clear that religion is the façade for the bristling ambitions and fanaticism of misguided people, then, some sense can be made of last Tuesday’s horrific crime against mankind.

    The role of religion in creating unrest throughout the world must be acknowledged as intolerance and injustice have led to rebellion and retaliation making any chances of reconciliation nearly impossible. Each day hundreds of people are dying in religious conflicts, some which have lasted so long that few remember why they are fighting and are only fueled by hatred and a tradition of fighting.

    Religious Wars

    A fragile peace settled on Bosnia after U.N. troops broke of the fighting there between Serbian Orthodox Christians, Muslims and Roman Catholics who have been at each other’s throats for decades. U.N. Troops are also helping to keep a shaky peace in Cypress where Christian Greeks and Turkish Muslims continue to fight. Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs in India have been fighting for years and show no signs of quitting. Muslims and Christians in Indonesia have made a shambles of the land where 20% of the population has died by starvation, disease or murder.

    Even the holocaust of a nuclear war has done nothing to quell the violence between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. In Kurdistan, Christians and Muslims continue to bomb each other while Jews and Muslims can find no peace in the Middle East.

    This religiously fueled unrest has reached into Africa where Yoruba, Christian and Muslims are locked in a complex religious and ethnic conflict as the once Muslim dictatorship begins to fall. Religious conflict has wracked the Sudan where slavery is still practiced while Christian and Muslims make war. Other sites of religious strife include Tibet, Sri Lanka, Serbia, the Philippines, Pakistan, northern Ireland an, Thailand and Bangladesh.

    Throughout history, religion has been used to justify the unjustifiable. It has been used to breed hatred, fuel contempt, encourage sexism, support racism and encourage violence in the name of God. Part of the fault lies with the sacred texts of these various religion which were written during a time when the world was different and warring tribalism was the best of civilization.

    Still, no matter how much one might be tempted to blame it on religion, at some point it must come back to its genesis—people. When it is all said and done, men do evil and pretend that it is good. Men kill other men and say it was ordained. Men twist words and blind themselves to reality, saying they do the work of God. Then why all of the hatred?

    It is simple. Narrow-minded and ignorant people despise those who are not ridden with guilt, envy and the shackles of the a 14th century mind. They hate those who are free to speak, to challenge and to worship as they please. They are nothing more than bigots who invoke the shield of religion to hide the darkness in their souls.

    In the end, we see that it is people who commit these heinous acts and it is people who must eventually bring an end to it. It is people who must recover, rebuild and be willing to stand against those who hide behind religion, tarnishing its name while killing indiscriminately.

    In October of 1999, a group of religious leaders met in Geneva, Switzerland and issued the Geneva Spiritual Appeal. The document asks that political and religious leaders and organizations ensure that religion is not used to justify violence. Unfortunately, no one paid attention.
     
  2. dnommo

    dnommo Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2001
    Messages:
    2,053
    Likes Received:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Teacher of English, Literature & Poetry
    Location:
    Baltimore, Md.
    Ratings:
    +15
    Ra,

    i shall digest this and get back to you. i haven't been in for a while...
     
  3. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,868
    Likes Received:
    13
    Occupation:
    Sales Management
    Location:
    Dallas
    Ratings:
    +14
    I was wondering when!

    This is intended to be provocative and I was waiting to see who would step to the plate and take a swing--there are many sides to this issue--through the centuries religion has divided men and women, supported causes to horrid to mention, caused dissension and division among families and tried to keep progress from taking place as science started to evolve.

    On the other hand, religion has done some good with charitable acts, political emphasis and hard work. However, I would venture that the people who do good acts don't need religion to do them. There are good people in this world don't have religion and there good ones who do.

    Division is readily apparent even in Christianity in the United States. All one needs to do is count the different churches in the country. Although many line up as Christians, in reality there are different types of Christians beyond Catholics, Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists, etc. Among those groups there are divisions and subdivisions.

    The point in the whole message is that religions tend to have the fingerprints of man all over them. Them were developed by man and when things didn't fit their need they change them and break away to a form that does fit their needs. There was only one Christian Church before Martin Luther and now there are more than 16,000 different sects.

    In this country, for the most part, religion is usually a good thing. It usually helps people, provides hope, provides and community feeling and speaks out on important social issues. However, there is an underbelly of religion dominated by Biblical literalists who believe that method is acceptable if they are convinced they have interpreted the Bible correctly and there is the rub.

    The Bible itself is a multitude of translations. Although the King James Version is the most well know, there are at least 15 different versions available right now and before the King James version there was Tynndale and others, which came from translations from Latin, Greek and Hebrew.

    The whole point to al of this is that man makes these determinations and it is man that carries them out with full knowledge and aforethought. It is man that5 causes man's problems.


    Ra
     
  4. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,868
    Likes Received:
    13
    Occupation:
    Sales Management
    Location:
    Dallas
    Ratings:
    +14
    I agree

    It seems like man uses religion to do all of the thing man wants to do and then says that God sanctioned it--its a pretty neat trick if you can pull it off, but in this case I see a lot of man and little of God

    Ra

    ;)
     
  5. Thandiwe

    Thandiwe Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2001
    Messages:
    680
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Ratings:
    +2
    I couldn't have said it better!

    Peace and Love,

    I agree wholeheartedly with your comments Amun Ra!.

    I made similar comments (though not a clearly and eloquently) on Epiphany's thread on "Spiritual Awakening">

    I too feel that we have done more harm with religion. it has divided us more than pull us all together. there is no one god for everyone to worship. though in my opinion, i don't think the higher being wants that much praise. i believe we as Ra stated, "...I would venture that the people who do good acts don't need religion to do them. There are good people in this world don't have religion and there good ones who do. "

    alot of terrorist acts are done in the name of someone religious beliefs. so i would venture to say, that yes religion is responsible.

    as we pray and sing God bless america, others are burning american flags, shooting off weaponry, all in the name of their God.
     
  6. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,868
    Likes Received:
    13
    Occupation:
    Sales Management
    Location:
    Dallas
    Ratings:
    +14
    Wid You

    It is my opinion that religion would be a lot better off it it didn't invokes any gods. The world is filled with good and bad people and those who form relatrionships always find a way to get along. Long before the Ten Commandments were even a thought, people had pretty much agreed that certain things were not considered good for relationships such as murdering, stealing, lying, etc. No one needed a god to do that, it was in people's best interest to cooperate.

    I am of the opinion the religious services are little more than social and entertainment events. There is good philosophy that often occurs in some churches, but there is good solid moral and ethical philosophy all around the globe without invoking the supernatural. Most would not admit that the primary reason they go to church is see the people they like, be entertained and maybe hear a few words of wisdom, but I think it is not much more than that.

    Of course, I am on the outside looking in. However, when I attended church I found that there were only certain times I would go. I never went to the service with the children's choir or the old folks choir. I never went when the main pastor wasn't preaching. I soon figured out that I went there for entertainment and to meet with my buds after church. I enjoyed the heck out of that.

    Yes, I was moved, but not by the spirit as I once believed, but by the power of well crafted speeches and excellent music. As a musician I know what it is to be transported by a song, a melody or a composition. I also know what it takes to move an audience both as a musician and as a public speaker.

    I am all for church. I just want to have the supernatural removed and be replaced with fellowship and wisdom teaching. I have all ready been condemned by some of my Christian friends for these thoughts, but it's okay. I don't mind.

    Ra
     
  7. dnommo

    dnommo Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2001
    Messages:
    2,053
    Likes Received:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Teacher of English, Literature & Poetry
    Location:
    Baltimore, Md.
    Ratings:
    +15
    Actually Holy wars were stated in biblical times as far back as the Pentateuch where Joshua was intstructed to take land promised to Abraham and of Moses in the book of Joshua. The Holy Wars began over land and still occurs today. In other words, Jihad (or Holy Wars) occurred long before it was defined in a European language. Today, Palestinians and Israeli's are stilling fighting over the same land.

    Now you also stated that

    Could you please explain (or anyone who chooses to ring in) how Islam was created to oppose Christianity? And could you please provide an avenue of verification for such a statement? While i have heard many things, this one is new.

    Seeking more understanding on that statement.

    ***THE FOLLOWING IS IN PART A RESPONSE TOT HIS FORUM BUT ALSO A RESPONSE FROM FORUMS THAT HAVE BEEN READ ABOUT THE HORRIBLE INCIDENTS OF 9-11-01 WHERE THERE ARE THOSE WHO HAVE ATTEMPTED TO POINT THE FINGER TO ONE RELIGION OR ANOTHER. THE TRUTH IS THAT IT WAS NOT A RELIGION THAT DID THOSE THINGS IT WAS A GROUP OF FANATICS AND EXTREMEIST.***

    Ra, i seemed to be lost here. The acts that have occurred on 9-11-01 and the horendous fanatcism that is happening today seems to be conducted by a particular radical sect of Islam. Now i am not against Islam, but i find it saddening that there seems to be an attempt to someohow prove that Christianity is just as wrong as Islam. Let's be real here. All religious beliefs have groups in them that take their religious beleifs to a level of being dangerous or fanaticism. While i know the history fo Christianity, and i am aware of the battles in Europe between Catholics and Protestants, i read and hear so many people expressing that Islam is a peaceful religion and that they teach peace not murder and yet when a group of Islamic believers blow up a building the rest step up and say that they do not follow true Islamic beliefs. Well, what about the Taliban? They have taken the Koran and propagated it to the point that they are killing their own people? How? They have stipulated that woman are not to work and yet all the sons, fathers and grandfathers in the house are dead so how does the mother feed her children? The Taliban is a fanatic RELIGIOUS group. The key here. They are a fanattic group. Hitler was a fanatic as well as the KKK who performed hangings for the sake of Christianity. Reality is that anyone who practices a religion will interpret the bible, the koran the talmud and any other religiuous document in their own way in order to support their actions. One thing we agree on. Religion has detroyed people's thinking. There are 16,000 sects of Christianity but remember: Christianity is a word that people have used to generalize ALL religion in the United States. The amount of Christian beliefs are many but not as many as those under the title Christianity. Also there are many beliefs of Islam that are not even documented. Religion is man made. Faith system is God-ordained. There is only one God, whom has many names in the world. They all worship one God. It's not my God, your God an atheist GOd, a Jewish God. There is one God. How these belief systems look at God is determined by their culture. This holds true for the Taliban.

    Look, the one gas station owner who was killed was not, as some say, of the Sheik Muslim beleif. They stated he was from India and there is a difference. Hmmm, seems to me that Islam has just as much differences as Christianity but the blatent horrific acts being conducted as of late is by groups who are continuing a battle over things their heritage fought over. I have read many comments (on another board) where Christianity is the one faith system that is attempted to be torn down and yet when the WTC bombings occurred, the Islamic belief was afraid. For what? They attempted to dispel the truths of what occurred: that the perpetrators of such actions were FANATCIAL BELIEVERS OF ISLAM. Timothy McVeigh, could very well have been a Christian but once again he was a FANATICAL BELEIVER OF CHRISTIANITY.

    Now for those who asked where was GOD on 9/11/01? Why did GOD allow this to happen? Hmmm, well let's see. Here we have a group of terrorists who beleive that they are dying for the cause of their GOD getting on a plane with people of varied religous beliefs all seeking GOD and barrel a plane into buildings full of people whom beleive in their GOD. God was their but because so many have taken this time to attempt to tear down a belief system that had nothing to do with it we have more confusion than before.

    The bottom line. WAS RELIGION TO BLAME? Yes, the fanactical beliefs grown out of hate and misunderstanding of their beliefs was to blame. GOD no matter how you worship HIM is not a GOD of murder and suicide. The Koran, the Talmud and the Bible teach against it and yet that is what happened there.

    Sorry for being long winded but i am tired of the discusion of attempting to support the terrorst actions with religion. They were wrong for their actions. they were fanatics and did not truly understand the teachings of Islam. I am not Islamic but i do know that they do not teach suicide nor murder.

    TRUE BELIEVERS OF CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM, JUDAISM, BUDDHISM, AND ANY OTHER FAITH SYSTEM IS FOLLOWING THEIR BELEIF NOT A RELIGION. RELIGION IS A MAN MADE CONCEPT, SAME WITH DENOMINATIONALISM WHICH HAS CREATED SUCH DIVISIONS IN THE FAITH BELEIVING RELAM THAT PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO BELEIVE.

    Some will not like what i have said but it is true. Any Christian that came against a Islamic beleiver is wrong and not a true example of Christianity. The amazing thing i find is that leaders of all faith systems have opened the line of communicatins, not to tear each other down but how to build a bridge to understanding.

    HOLY WARS? We're in one everyday when we jump on the internet and spew inaccuracies and anger over a bad experience. We are in one when we tear down one faith system on behalf of another.

    I have remosre for those who have had bad experiences in churches across this land but those experiences should not prevent you from seeking GOD. Whether it be Islamic, Christian or any other faith system there needs to be a bridge of understanding and not a forum for tearing down.

    And for those who don't think on that level, here's the bottomline. It was a group of Islamic believers who have pereptrated the horrendous actions a few weeks ago. If you want to make it a religious problem then there it is. But i suggest you look past the titles and see the truth. No matter what they believed, they were fanatics. They were extremeist. THAT is the only religion that prevailed: Etremist.

    Ra, i applaud your question and the attempt here. I enjoy our conversations and discussions. For anyone i may have offended, forgive me but we need to keep this thing in perspective. The tragedy is not a venue to propogate whose religion is right.

    Ra, your words are true but i must disagree on one thing. Religion has a major part of it because the people who have conduct the evils acts you stated did them all for the sake of their religion. The kay to it is do we have religion in out lives or God. Religion puts restrictions on what God can do. Meaning religion will tell you that God will do this and God can't do that. The texts that different cultures follow are basic guidelines for their growth through life. I thelps to build structure but without some sort of moral stantards and structure then we end up reverting back to the "Free Love" era of the 70's where drug abuse increased as well as other concepts. Yes we do have the same problems today on an alevated level but we also have a group that is seeking a spiritually rooted foundation based on the concept of GOD. The constant flow of people returning to church and mosques and synagogues over recent years shows that people are seeking answers. Even the last two weeks. You can be certain that churches, synagogues and mosques were full to the brim with people scared by the attacks on their very sanctity. I watched people who used to say that they have their own personal relationshipw ith God and they don't need church, almost breaking down the doors of 9-12-01. Bible studies looked like Sunday Morning worship. Mosques full. Synagogues turning people away because they have no more room. People realize that it were men inherently evil, blindly confused by one family who conducted such acts but the country sought GOD for answers.

    Hey Ra, here's a question: Why did it take such a horrendous act of violence for the world to come together for one cause? Countries that would not talk tot he U.S. any other time are not standing strong with us to fight this battle. I find that interesting.

    Once again, good forum and still i will reread and absorb more...
     
  8. dnommo

    dnommo Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2001
    Messages:
    2,053
    Likes Received:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Teacher of English, Literature & Poetry
    Location:
    Baltimore, Md.
    Ratings:
    +15
    Forgive me but your perception of a Holy War is incorrect. Holy Wars were fought over occupation of land not over conversion of religuous beliefs. You, inadvertnantly i presume, have agreed with me on the fact that the purpose of the wars was over land. Even today the most brutal and harsh Holy Wars are over the occupation of Holy Land. Please provide for me information where it states that Holy Wars were fought over the premise of conversion of non believers to one particular faith.

    Joshua fought to claim the land promised to him by God. If you read the Old Testament, (before Chrsitianity) you will see that in those days there were diverse religions as it is today. Rahab, the prostitue spoke to the men who came into the land before the attacks and told them that her people had heard about
    Joshua's God. Simply put, the actions were done on the premise of their faith system. They believed in GOd and what He instructed of them and He provided them what He promised. But overall, Holy Wars are based on religous beleifs not the process of conversion. You are speaking specifically about the Crusades which was a travesty...

    Holy Wars have rarely been over the conversion of one faith to another but over disagreements whether over land, beliefs or understanding. Even the Qumran speaks of Jihad as being over principle and not of conversion of faith so i am curious as to how you premise that Holy Wars were designed to force conversion to one faith?

    The battles fought in the times of Joshua were very much so considered Holy Wars for the simple fact that the destruction of one nation by another through brutal tactics is simply war.


    Now my next question is: Who was the rigtheous race that you speak of in your comments? The one Joshua fought to claim land for?



    While i find this staement interesting you still have not provided support for your findings. I tend to beleive that this is your interpretation of why Islam was created so i shall ask this question of other beleivers. Seeing how all three major religions (Islam, Christianity and Judaism) worked and lived in harmony for many years in history. Even the Islamic faith supports that concept as well as many Christian believers. The animosity comes from misunderstanding. Your comments seem to expressed some extremist views...

    still awaiting supporting evidence...
     
  9. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,868
    Likes Received:
    13
    Occupation:
    Sales Management
    Location:
    Dallas
    Ratings:
    +14
    Excellent!

    An excellent discussion. Normally, it is difficult to discuss religion in any civilized fashion, but there are always exceptions. It is hard to overlook the religious ties that are being bandied about by Christians and Muslims at this time without thinking that religion seems to be at the very heart of this matter. In a very small way, perhaps it is, but is man's capacity to do evil that is more likely the villain.

    Man has needed little persuasion to gut, maim, torture, and murder their fellow humans especially when the cause of righteousness is invoked so that the unthinking will look no further. However, the invocation of religion is the ultimate excuse for it provides a holy reason for doing what is inhuman and even promises rewards to those who do it particularly well. Still, it is man that bares brunt of this bloodthirst despite their holy protestations.

    Ra
     
  10. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,868
    Likes Received:
    13
    Occupation:
    Sales Management
    Location:
    Dallas
    Ratings:
    +14
    Update!

    As I was writing I became aware that the United States had started bombing in Afghanistan. Obviously, this raises the prospects opf a Holy War, or does it? Does the Taliban speak for all of Islam? Does it speak for most of Islam or is it like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, living on the deges of its religion and recognized for it 14th century thinking and hatred of anything that isn't in line with what they have determined is right?

    Think about that one.

    Ra
     
Loading...