Black Relationships : Interesting site!

Discussion in 'Black Relationships' started by Regina, Apr 1, 2003.

  1. Regina

    Regina Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Metro Atlanta
    Ratings:
    +2
    Many people feel feminism has been part of the catalyst for the chasm in Black relationships. I personally feel many "radical feminists" have used Black women for their own agendas. I think the definition of feminism is broad and many feminists do not agree with each other. In pushing for women's rights, we have to be careful not to step on the rights of men. In the area of family law, we have crossed over too far in protecting the rights of women.

    I ran across this website, I think it will spark comments...

    http://www.blacktown.net
     
  2. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2001
    Messages:
    6,375
    Likes Received:
    1,430
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings:
    +1,862
    Interesting website. Before I comment, I would like to see a few other opinions first.
     
  3. Emeka

    Emeka Banned MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5
    Whilst there are MANY things on the site which I don't agree with, I feel that the overall message is correct. This feminism thing has ALWAYS troubled me. When I as a black man voice my opinions on it, I'm immediately labeled a "male chauvinist pig." But if you look at it from an unemotional level you'll see that society has made it almost a crime to be considered manly (aka macho). We're constantly bombarded by images in the media, which portray men as idiots and buffoons who are hopeless without women. Has any one seen a recent deodorant commercial aimed at women, whom shows a man stranded in the middle of know where because of a flat tire and is then "rescued" by a woman who changes his tires for him? This classically portrays the man as the hopeless male idiot unable to do even things that were once considered manly without a woman.

    Then you have the growth of the "metro sexual" male. For those who don't know what that is, it's an effeminate yet straight guy who's clearly (and proudly) in touch with his "feminine" side. This image of a watered down and emotionally castrated male is being paraded as what men should be like. I've even heard of studies being put out by parental groups advising parents to prevent their little boys from playing "rough" games. Rather-according to these groups-parents should teach the sons to stay inside and engage in activities that these boys would otherwise have thought of as "girlie."

    Then you have laws that disproportionately favor women over men. Like marriage laws, which maintain that the women gets everything including the kids-because children need their mother when growing up, but don’t apparently need a father-whilst the man gets to pay child support and visit his kids only on weekends. Then you get laws on domestic violence that are blatantly biased towards women who are abused by men, but forget that violence can also be a two way street. This is the also same with sexual harassment cases.

    Now in saying this, I'm not riding women or saying ALL the problems of society are your fault. God knows we men have our own issues that we need to solve out our selves. I know after this post I'm going to be attacked left, right and center by feminists calling for my proverbial head. But what ever the critics say, if they look at everything I've said rationally you'll know that it's the truth.
     
  4. panafrica

    panafrica Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,227
    Likes Received:
    191
    Location:
    The Diaspora
    Ratings:
    +194
    "A House Divided Against Itself Can Not Stand"

    This site has some interesting points, I can do without the cartoons though (mainly because it distracts from the seriousness of the issue). Some points are off the mark, but like Brother Chuk said I do agree with the overall message. I have long observed that the feminist movement disrupted not only the black family, but the black civil rights movement as well. The feminist movement has occured in two stages: First in the mid 1800s with the Declaration of Sentiments, Second in the 1960s. Both of the stages were inspired by black freedom movements: The Abolitionist movement and the Civil Rights Movement respectively. In both cases the feminist movement served to undercut and sabotage the goals of black freedom movements.

    For example, the modern feminist movement occurred at a time when black people were just getting the benefits of their decades long struggle (the civil rights act of 64, the voting rights act, etc). We were fighting against a white racist oppressive social structure. A racist social structure that was created and supported by both White Men & White Women!! We've all seen pictures of smiling white girls at lynchings, of white women directing blacks to go to the "Colored Only Section", of white female slave masters running the plantation after their husband died. Yet when blacks were on the verge of achieving rights in this country, white women decided it was time to carry out their vendetta against their husbands. They also expressed feelings of oppression at the hands of white men, and these women called out to black women to add strength to their struggle. Unfortunately too many did. Now before the battle for black rights had even been won black women were fighting along side their oppressors against their brothers and husbands. To me it defies logic.

    The feminist movement has never served the interest of black women. The major goals of the "White" feminist movement were the right to work, which black women were already doing. The right to vote, which was covered by the civil rights struggle. Equal pay for equal work also was covered by the civil rights movement. Indeed, every "gain" that black women earned could have been achieved through the efforts of black man & women through civil rights. There was no need for black women to separate and join a white inspired movement. If polled I believe most black men support women having equal rights; however, these same men would more than likely be against the feminist movement. This is because the goals of the feminist movement appears to promote the notion that men are not needed (which has been stated by many feminist), and to desire that men be subservient (not equal). These goals, whether stated or implied is what most men are against, and it is why many do not support the feminist movement. The only thing this achieved was to divide our house against itself.
     
  5. deepy

    deepy going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,845
    Likes Received:
    36
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    nyc
    Ratings:
    +43
    I went to the site...and after approximately 4 clicks i left it.
    When the womens movement of the 60's began to take flight...i was totally against it, because i also thought that it was diverting the energy of the civil rights movement and because i had/have lived with feminist all my life... My mother worked...as did my aunts and female cousins.. statistically you will see there was only a very small percentage of african=american women who joined such a movement.(really very small)
    In many ways the Flo Kennedys' of the world were actually way ahead of there time. She wasa leader in the movement and also very much involved and absolutely a keen voice for civil rights. She did however understand that just working does not necessary mean you are being paid your worth. <caron>that the voices of control were in fact white males and sadly (which i think was her big mistake) believed that the aligning of these movement s might bring a stronger voice to the concept of civil rights.in somethings it did, by the way.
    So to see a site which is really about "keeping a house divided" only informs me that we are still not looking at the larger issues of how we as a people = man and woman- can help the concept of unity.
    I am curious tho...what do you really see the womens movement as?
    Do any of you believe it has helped...or has it only been detrimental...maybe i should start a thread about it...and yet it all comes together in the end. The energy spent on putting together a website such as that...is it for african=americans? Or to help to continue the myths?
     
  6. Regina

    Regina Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2002
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Metro Atlanta
    Ratings:
    +2
    Guys,

    What's even worse is when you are a Black female who gets beat up when she talks about the feminist groups. I ask women when was the last time a white female helped you in your career? In family court, Black women are helping the system financially lynch Black men who want to be involved with their children.

    Also, Black women want the option of staying home with the children. Most of our female predecessors didn't have that option. When they did, they took in laundry for families or kept others children. And more often than not, the groups are very anti-male. Some white women can stay home because many of them have support from grandparents and parents or an inheritance. My family always expressed the need for two salaries in a Black family because we need to build wealth. They stated Black families are playing catch up with the rest of society.
     
  7. Emeka

    Emeka Banned MEMBER

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2003
    Messages:
    369
    Likes Received:
    5
    Ratings:
    +5
    As anyone noticed how the growing trends occurring in (white) society (i.e. spiraling drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, single mothers, growing crime rate etc), closely resembles that of the turmoil that already existed in the black community for some time? Despite the fact that the media continues to be in denial of what is obvious to anyone with thinking mind. Why, you ask, has this occurred? Because of the changing roles women play in society. As you all know many of the problems facing the African American community can be traced back to slavery. But few people truly understand that they reason we have such high levels of dysfunctional relationships within our community is due to the way black female slaves were conditioned as opposed to their male counterparts. To explain what I mean I will have to dive back to the way male and female slaves were deliberately treated in order to keep the slaves and there descendants permanently enslaved (even after emancipation), and how this is VERY relevant in today's society.

    You know women really are the key to the moral fiber of the family and subsequently the nation. According to the speech of William Lynch the key to keeping slaves and their descendants perpetually enslaved was not through the male, but through the female slave. By brutally lynching the male in front of the woman and viciously raping the woman in front of the man; you create a sort of matrix in the minds of both the man and women, where the woman feels she most be independent of the man who can not protect her whilst the man internally hates himself for being powerless. This hatred is lashed out against the woman whom he can not protect and against himself for his perceived failures (sound familiar, anyone?). Further more the woman who now sees that her man can not protect her-which is the natural function of males-abandons her role as nurturer and teach, and to acts independently by herself; in the process usurping the males’ natural role of protector and defender. This of cause results in an emotionally castrated male who can no longer function in society because he no longer has a well defined role to play.

    The woman-as the first teacher-then instructs her male and female children in very distinct manners, which perpetuates the disability of the community. She (unconsciously) teaches her son to be less aggressive and more dependant on her, whilst simultaneously teaching her daughter to be more independent and emotionally tough. This was at first done so as to keep the male slave (the more dangerous of the two) in a child-like condition, where he would not dare to oppose the master who was constantly inviting the female slaves into his bed without their permission. This off course reinforces and confirms the male's inferiority complex about not being able to protect his women. The woman also teaches her son to pay more attention to his physical/athletic attributes and less to mental studies, because only through physical strength can he hope to please his master (i.e. through lifting heavy sack of cotton etc) and his women (i.e. sexually); ever wondered why so many black males are obsessed with their physical and sexual prowess?

    The daughter on the other hand is taught by her mother that she can not really on her man and must fend for herself. She therefore only sees her man as only a source of procreation and nothing more. The man, who has been taught to be less aggressive, willingly accepts and even welcomes this new role as “baby father.” Whether they’ll admit it or not, this is the main reason why African American women continue to tolerate their men impregnating and then leaving them. In many cases the women demand that their men play no role in the upbringing of the child. Thus, the role of the “baby mother” is formed.

    Now, how does this conditioning lead continuing enslavement of our people, you ask? Well in any society men ARE the natural doers (the ones, who fight the wars, build the homes etc). Women on the other hand ARE the natural nurturers of society. This has the case throughout most cultures of history with VERY few exceptions. If you destroy this balance you can control the community because you take from the man his natural inclination to protect his women and to DO for her. You also take from the woman her femaleness and create a new kind of women who is torn between her natural dependence on her man and her new role being the “man.” But the only problem is women can not be men and men can not be women. Despite what women of today say they are not the natural doers of society. And since those in society who would natural do for the community are out of action-so to speak-the community is left in a constant state of paralyses.

    This is exactly the black community (and increasingly among whites), where you have a case of gender roles being changed or obscured. Has anyone ever noticed how black women tend to be more emotionally tougher and independent minded than their male counterparts? How black men allow whites and others to depreciate and debase there women without doing anything? How much black women will stand up for themselves towards whites but yet black men shrink in fear? I’m sure we all know of black men who are so emotionally dependant on women that they still live with their mothers, even when past the age of thirty. If you don’t believe what I’m saying observe the way both male and female children are brought up. You’ll see that male child is unknowingly taught by his mother (who is usually a single parent) to be more dependent on her, whilst the female is taught to be more independent.

    This is the case in the black community across the world. And thanks to feminism the same is taking place in the white community. The constant images of women being better than men, whilst men being good for nothing buffoons, has began to break the natural balance amongst white men and women. You constantly hear of how girls do better at this and at that than boys. This leads to the inferiority complex amongst boys who feel that the natural roles in society is being usurp by women. This leads to dysfunctional behavior by males, who no longer know what role to play in society. Feminists then instruct women to teach there daughters to be “independent” from their men. Men are further castrated by being taught to be less manly (“macho”) and more feminine. And like I’ve already said men can not be women and women can not be men, so this will obviously lead to disaster.

    In conclusion, if society-especially the black community-is to change men must be taught to become men again. Black women are constantly complaining how black men don’t act like men, but like boys. This is true because black men have been raised to perpetually remain like boys even in old age. Women instinctively know and demand that men in society provide the leadership role-that’s why they’re attracted to powerful men-yet because of social condition they unwittingly force men to become weak and powerless. Are society’s ills the fault of women? The answer is a resounding NO, but women-especially black women-must realize the unique role in the making and unmaking of society. It’s really true that a woman can make and break a man; as the saying goes: “Behind every great man is an even greater woman.”
     
  8. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

    Country:
    United States
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2001
    Messages:
    6,375
    Likes Received:
    1,430
    Gender:
    Female
    Ratings:
    +1,862
    Chukwuemeka, your position was articulated very well although much of it I disagree with. There is so much here that I want to challenge but it would lead me to write a book. Instead, I will focus on one small portion of your comments.

    Given all that you've written here about the roles of Black men and Black women; the impact that the white feminist movement has on us; how Black men and Black women are raised and how we perceive, interact with and what we expect from each other, I'm very curious to know exactly what are the specific things that men can be taught to become men and who is most qualified to teach this lesson?

    Also, do you honestly believe that saying that a greater woman is behind every great man? Who wrote that anyway? Do you think a Black man/woman came up with that notion? If that's the case, then who stands behind every great woman--a greater man? Although you raise some interesting points, my sense is that it's rife with generalizations. I think in many instances, you completely underestimate and literally socially and politically castrate Black men and describe Black women as too independent and lacking compassion for Black men.

    I understand your points about the slavery issue but I'm not quite sure that since the eradication of 'legal' slavery, that Black men are being raised to be dependent on women and Black women to be completely independent of Black men. I could be interpreting your post wrong, so maybe some more discussion around that will help me to understand that concept better.
     
  9. panafrica

    panafrica Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,227
    Likes Received:
    191
    Location:
    The Diaspora
    Ratings:
    +194
    I think people learn by example. While it has become a modern day cliche, I believe boys best learn how to be men, by following the example of a positive male role model. I know that I learned how to be a man from watching my father. I don't agree with every thing my father does, and he is not perfect. But the basic things he did: worked every day, paid bills on time, did not hang out in the streets, never hit or abused my mother, provided us with everything we needed......those things stick with me to this day. I learned all this by observing not through lectures, because my father has never been that much of a talker. Watching through observation ultimately is the best example because children tend to pay more attention to what you do rather than what you say. Along these same lines, my father learned how to be a "man" from his father, and so on.

    Children are meant to be raised by both a mother and father. Both mother and father have parential roles outside of financial ones, and the two provide a balance. Mothers typically nurture their sons, while fathers instruct them on the neccesities of becoming a man, and taking care of his own family one day. Sometimes the two reverse roles, while both support each others message. However, it is difficult for one to play both roles, which is what the African American Community is being faced with. I know a handful of single Black men who are raising daugthers. When it comes to feminine issues they ultimately have to go to female relatives or friends, because they are ill equiped to give their girls the advice they need. Sure these guys tell their daughters what type of women they should be......what type of woman they want them to be (don't sleep around, what to look out for in men, etc). But they can't fully prepare them for womanhood without the assistance of a woman. I don't know anyone who thinks a man can teach a girl how to become a lady, yet everyone feels that women have no problems teaching boys to become men.

    All that being said, I think that the African American community has to start promoting the importance of having a father in the home. This is important because the AA community is being socially conditioned to not realize the importance of having a father, or to view a father soley as a means of financial support. To bring this conversation back to feminism, I think that it has played a role in the devaluation of the male's importance in the family. The African American community was especially vulnerable to this message, because the male role in our society has always been under attack. This does originate from slavery when males were taken from their families. After efforts to break this trend when slavery ended (slave men actively sought out their wives, and men married their lovers.......a right.....a dignity & priviledge that was too long denied them). The pattern of fatherless ness was re-introduced with the creation of welfare in the 1940s-50s, which rewarded poor women with assistance under the condition that a male not be present in the home (this has to be the most underhanded condition I've ever heard of.....more on this thought later). The African American community which was overwhelmingly poor and in need of help went to welfare, and accepted its conditions of not having a male present. The feminist notions of not needing a man reinforced welfares conditions, and it reinforced what black women had been socially conditioned to do for the past 300 years. It should not be surprising that currently single parent houses in the African American community is around 70%.

    I again state that we are being socially conditioned to not have fathers in our houses. In other words we are being socially conditioned to be overwhelmingly raised in broken homes. The prosperity of our community is under attack with this trend, and most of us aren't even aware of it. I recently got a first hand account of how devious this welfare system is. I pay between $1000-1250 per month for day care, and this doesn't include diapers, or food. The secretary at my wife's job pays $400 dollars per month for day care, and her sister pays only $3 per month at the same place. My wife called the lady who runs this daycare to see how is it possible that she charges so little. This woman responded that in order for my wife to qualify then she would have to say that I don't support her (in other words that I'm a deadbeat dad). The sister of my wife's secretary (who is married) had to do this to qualify. Now I have to say that this woman knows my wife has a husband who supports her, she was just giving her advice about how to take advantage of the system. But again this is a devious requirement to begin with. One designed not to help people, but to divide families, and to keep poor people poor.

    Feminism is a white inspired movement, one that was likely inspired by white supremacy. The effect is there, even if the intent was not. Therefore, I denouce it like I denounce every form of white supremacy. We as a community have to become pro-family, and fight against anything that seeks to deny us this right. Having both parents is a right every child deserves. Marriage is a priviledge that has been unjustly denied to us. In a community where upwards of 70% of African American families consist soley of a mother and her children. Feminism is the last thing that is needed. What is needed is the promotion of two parent households. What we need is to reverse the social condition which causes us to not to seek out the best for our children.
     
  10. HerukhuMaat

    HerukhuMaat Well-Known Member MEMBER

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Bucktown USA
    Ratings:
    +0
    Much props to you Chukweuemeka! In your post you have thoughtfully and insightfully articulated the issue that is crippling our community. Please continue to share your wonderful analysis and mind with us. We need more brothers like yourself who are unapologetic and not afraid to speak the truth about our condition.

    Black people are at the bottom of the social ladder. We are affected first by the ills (feminism and other things) of society and thus suffer the most. However, our condition ironically seems all the time to trickle its way back up to the upper echelon of society over time. I agree feminism is slowly ruining society as a whole with the promotion of the powerless male. There was a time when women were completely dependent on men for their income and survival. This led to some men abusing their women and mistreating them. This was not good.

    Today we live in times where women work and support themselves. Women have adopted the attitude that they don't require men for much of anything. They can have any job they want, as many men as they can, and do anything they please. They can even go to the sperm bank and have a baby. Men now have no rights that a woman needs to respect. This is not good either.

    The gender roles that society has built has been altered, however the innate gender roles that nature has created remain the same. Men innately feel the need to protect and provide. Women still feel the need to birth and nurture.
    The current state of male/female relations represents the other extreme to what once existed. Both were and are destructive. What we need is a healthy balance respecting both gender roles set forth to us by nature.
     
Loading...