Black Spirituality Religion : I have some questions for the believers

[Radical Faith]

What's up Radical, I'm glad that you responeded to my thread. Your response was filled with alot of emotions. So I will try to answer it in the most respectful manner I can. In your first pargraph you were making a argument for people doing things despite it not being in their best interest. But they continue to commit the act because it feels good. You had made references to a couple of different behaviors and tied your argument to the idea of someone having faith and their faith makes them feel good so therefore it is something people will continue to base their reality on.

One point that you made whether you did it on purpose are not in your first paragraph, is just because something my feel good does not necessarily make it right are good for you. Know I'm not saying having faith is bad but let's do a close examination of this word faith and we are going to use African people here in the US as a example. You brought up how faith was a leading emotion for the brothers and sisters "Peace be upon them"!, used to survive the climate they lived in at that time and how they used their faith to help create the world we live in today. I'm not going to argue that position because your right the peoples faith played a major part in their struggle. But was the knowledge that was behind the faith which makes up the peoples believe system is this knowledge really in accordance with the peoples best interest?

I must say this and I'm sure this is not going to go over well with alot of people. Even with all of the things you mention in your post on how faith has been used. Still what has that meant for black people all over the world and in the US. Even with all of our so called faith and religion we are still dominated by another group of people. And as long as another group dominates us we will be acting in a way that is not in our best interest, but in away that will benefit the people who dominate us. So I don't care how could you my feel about what you believe as long as your dominated by another group even what my feel good to you are what my seem to be right and true is still going to be a situation that benefits the group that dominates you. And it does not take much to to see even with all of the so called gains during the civil rights era. Which is something you mentioned to in your post. By no way I'm I belittling the brothers and sisters who died and risked their lives so that we could have things they could only dream of. My point is not to belittle their sacrifices but to show that even through their actions where couragous and commendable it still does not mean it was in our best interest as a people.

Look brother Radical let's put things in their proper prospective. Let us look at the context of where each of us is coming from and put it in it's proper place. We can argue religions role in society and how it is used to create a moral structure for people all day. That is not the point of this argument my original question to you and to all of the other reigious people was if we did find out that your belief system was true. I am speaking specifically about the holy bible and the koran since these two holy documents and belief systems have held Africans hostage for the last few decades. What if we found out today that either one of these two documents was without a doubt the truth and was the direct word of god? What would that information do for us collectively as a people. I mean is that information going to change our ****uation in the world. As a matter of fact black people we have been so called good christians every since the slavemaster and his children beat us over the head with it. We have been more christian like then the very same people who raped us and claimed themselves to be more moral than us because of their religion. But yet what have our strange obedience to these religions gotten us? Black people ask yourself what has being a good christian or a good muslim collectively as a group done for us? Has it put us in a position to better defend our lives and our childrens lives from the very same people who dominate us as a group all over the world? Do we control anything that comes into our community whether it does us harm are good? Do we control the education of our children so that they will be taught what is in our best interest as a people? So that we can produce the type of minds that will secure our very survival as a people.

That was my original question and brother radical I'm still waiting for your answer. These are simple questions that require only a yes or no answer. Know if your answer to these questions are no which if we as a people are truly honest with ourselves no they are. Well then you must know question your believe system because obviously your system has not given us the correct guiduace. I don't care how good it makes you feel are how you feel like your believe system help you through your own personally struggle. The fact of the matter is as a collective group these system has not put us in a position to defend our best interests against our oppressors. In fact these systems have been used and continue to be used to justify our domination by others.

Thank you as well for engaging my conversation. The key thing said here is perspective. Reading into the angle of your questioning you seek an answer from a physical point of view. In others words what you are saying is the current predominant religious practices of our people have gotten us no farther than an expected rate of social progression had these religion never dominated our psyche. You feel you have not seen any overwhelming evidence that these religions has given us empowerment to overcome our continuous plight. That would depend on what one deems as progress. Does being a contender on a global scale count as progress? Sure. Does being able to call your own shots count as progress? Sure. Does preparing for the afterlife and developing one relationship with God count as progress. It sure does. If one measured success purely on the merits of what they accomplished in the world while alive then your progress and success could die with the conquest of a civilization. History has shown this. It is the spirit that endures long after civilization are laid to waste. With faith our situation would improve. It is our lack of faith that keeps us shackled in obscurity. See if we had faith our men would be leaders of their homes and communities. If our churches were faithful there would be no impoverished communities, nursing homes and half-way houses. If we had faith our schools would not be able to teach our children that they were some sort of lucky organism form from bacteria and evolved from apes and monkeys. If we has faith there would be no drugs and prostitution in our communities. If we had faith there would be no gang violence and murder in communities. If we had faith it would be easier to spend $10,000.00 on a college education than tire rims for a car that spin. If we had faith the cigarette companies wouldn't be getting rich from us smoking cigarettes and from us trying to stop. If we had faith we would get high in the spirit instead of drowning low in malt liquor. See the Bible speaks of these things and give examples of success and failure. So to answer your question yes faith got us through slavery, Jim Crow and civil rights but it's our lack of faith that is keeping us from progressing any farther. As George Fraser said God ain't given us nothing else until we learn to manager what we have. Managing what we have starts with eliminating some of our destructive habits. A bad habit must be replaced by a good habit. This involves faith. I suggest you take a deeper look at the Bible. It is because we don't use the Bible as our guide is why we have not progressed at a desireable rate. Also look at it like this in a war at is good to have tanks and heavy artilliary but it's the well trained, highly motivated soldier and his weapon that will win the war. That soldier is us and our weapon is the word of God.


Peace

Radical Faith

 

[youngblackceo]

This is getting interesting Radical you are really a devoted believer. I respect you that. So with that being said I will make my point on a couple of things you quoted which really does not make any sense.

The first thing you had mention was about our different perspectives. That is incorrect those questions I asked you was not from my personal perspective they were based on concrete facts. You also said that I was looking at things from clearly a physical point of view. Which is true we live in a fully tanglable world so the physical point of view is a very important part of how man views himself in the world. And based on what that man sees of himself that image is going to play a major role in not only how he interacts with other men of the world but with how he acts and percieves other members of his group. Before I continue I would like to say this religious people always tend to start throwing the word faith around like it should outway rationality.

Radical one of the biggest mistakes we as a people make is that we don't make the connection between socialization and religion. Let me explain and I will not go into full detail but like I said before we live in a physical world so man is going to view himself in such away that he will base his own sense of self on how he is viewed in the world from other groups of men. Know how that man sees or projects himself in the world whether he does things by force are cooperation with other men those actions are going to play a major role in how that man develops institutions whether it be his political, social, educational, are his religous institutions. You see the institutions that are created in this society is what that man is going to use to not only govern himself and his people with. But he will also use those institutions to project his image and his beliefs too the world. Know you must realize when a man begins this process when he projects his institutions upon another people which is normally done by force, but let's say it is done with cooperation between two different groups. Even done in cooperation the most important point is that when another group of people impose their institutions on other people. It will be done to benefit the imposers first and foremost. I don't care how good it may look are sound the people that are being imposed on will never reach their full capacity as a group as long as they continue to judge themselves and view their place in the world based on another groups institutions because the foundation that the people need to stand will never be there.

I think what brother Info-metry and I are trying to get too when we discuss this with christians, and muslims as well. And I think what disturbs us the most is that based on the history of how these two religions were given to us. What puzzles me and I'm sure it puzzles Info is that you cats don't even want to question the material. In fact you not only defend the material blindly in the name of faith but you jump down anyone throat for just questioning the bible are the koran even afther you acknowledge the history of how these two books were forced upon us.

Now Radical this is a quote you said in your last post "With faith our situation would improve. It is our lack of faith that keeps us shackled in obscurity." Our you serious please tell me you don't believe this. So I guess your saying that the european is in a position of dominance over the African because he has more faith than us. "Come on man be real"! African people in america and all over the world is not shackled in obscurity, because of his lack of faith. African people our shackled because we have no power to protect are defend our best interest in the world. The lack of power is a major problem in the Africans world today. Let us continue here is another one of your quotes " See if we had faith our men would be leaders of their homes and communities. If our churches were faithful there would be no impoverished communities, nursing homes and half-way houses." Look black men were not brought to this country to be true leaders for their people we were brought here to protect and enrich another group of men best interests irregardless of what was in our best interest. And to bring this social paradox into fruition want did europeans do. They stripped the African of everything and killed off the men who they feared to be strong leaders or potential leaders and then they replaced them with a preacher who read from a bible that was given to him by the very same people who were not concerned about what was in the best interest of the African. So my point is this as long as your coming from a reference point base on the institutions that has been given to us from our enemy the social problems in our community will continue. You spoke about the violence in our communities as well. "Look man," as long as we are dominate by europeans there will be social problems in our communities. Black men will continue to kill other black men in record numbers as long as they are dominated by another group of men. It has nothing to do with having faith are not having enough faith.

Anotherthing and I'm almost done you keep referring to faith and how it relates to our being able to survive terrrible situations. Like I said before this is true. But what your not getting is the fact that we as a people our in a position were we have to depend on just faith and the goodwill of others. To just survive in this world speaks to a greater problem a lack of power not faith. The very reason why the african as well as the indigenous people in the americas have been exploited and dominated by the europeans is because how the european has organized their power and the way they have chosen too relate their power into their institutions. And how they have taken that power in their institutions and projected that power into their intentuality and one of the europeans major intentualities is to dominate African people.

So the African is not in the situation that we are in today because of lack of faith. What happened to the African and the indigenous people in this country is that sometime ago two goups of people met and the two groups had two different cultures, with two different ways of thinking, and different technologies and one of the other people ran over the other one.

 

[Radical Faith]

Again Brother thank you. You have valid points about our imagery and how we see ourselves in the world. Yes the physical world does affect us. Let me explain what is so powerful about faith. What most people of faith will tell you is they had and experience that is to awesome for words. What you are probably imagining is a heavy set sister falling out in a fit of convulsions crying and speaking out of her head with people attending to her until she calms down. This happens sometimes but in my case it was not like that. It was if everything became clear and God became real. God gave me the gift of discernment. I can see. You probably don't believe that. My vision is different from yours. God is preparing me for what is still not certain. See each individual goes on his own journey. As for questioning the sacred documents, they did come into question but through my personal relationship with God my questions were answered. Faith is something that can not be adequately explained with words but if I had to describe it, it is the defining moment and your life when God becomes real. Now as far as our situation is concerned what you are essencially saying is that we are defeated. There is truth in what you say. What the Europeans have done is reversed our roles. They emasculated our men by raping his women and taking his children while we stood helpless. What they did is cause descension between man and woman, father and son, brother and brother, mother and daughter, etc. The Europeans broke our spirit and killed our faith in our God, ourselves and eachother. Again that is lack of faith. In those days we were simply surviving and not living. They replaced our men leaders with women not preachers. I remember hearing of a preacher of the Gospel named Nat Turner who mounted an insurrection with a Bible in hand killing 55 people in Virginia before he was caught. See the Europeans know the Bible was a dangerous instrument in our hands. They thought the uneducated slave would never get though the Shakespearean English of the Bible. See the Bible gives power to God not men. The Bible teaches men their place and who they are. No the European could never let this happen. The Early Illumanati created this nation separate from God being governed by man's rules. Yes brother this is the world we live in. A world where anything goes and God is make believe. See brother in our communities we must lose our fear of the other the man. I hate to hear someone what "they" ain't gone let us do or have. The Bible equips us so that we will live to our full glory. The problem is we have not been complete true to the word of God. This is why the word of God has not worked for us because we have not worked the word. Again brother lack of faith is our downfall. Not in God, not in eachother, not in ourselves.

 

[Sekhemu]

Again Brother thank you. You have valid points about our imagery and how we see ourselves in the world. Yes the physical world does affect us. Let me explain what is so powerful about faith. What most people of faith will tell you is they had and experience that is to awesome for words. What you are probably imagining is a heavy set sister falling out in a fit of convulsions crying and speaking out of her head with people attending to her until she calms down. This happens sometimes but in my case it was not like that. It was if everything became clear and God became real. God gave me the gift of discernment. I can see. You probably don't believe that. My vision is different from yours. God is preparing me for what is still not certain. See each individual goes on his own journey. As for questioning the sacred documents, they did come into question but through my personal relationship with God my questions were answered. Faith is something that can not be adequately explained with words but if I had to describe it, it is the defining moment and your life when God becomes real. Now as far as our situation is concerned what you are essencially saying is that we are defeated. There is truth in what you say. What the Europeans have done is reversed our roles. They emasculated our men by raping his women and taking his children while we stood helpless. What they did is cause descension between man and woman, father and son, brother and brother, mother and daughter, etc. The Europeans broke our spirit and killed our faith in our God, ourselves and eachother. Again that is lack of faith. In those days we were simply surviving and not living. They replaced our men leaders with women not preachers. I remember hearing of a preacher of the Gospel named Nat Turner who mounted an insurrection with a Bible in hand killing 55 people in Virginia before he was caught. See the Europeans know the Bible was a dangerous instrument in our hands. They thought the uneducated slave would never get though the Shakespearean English of the Bible. See the Bible gives power to God not men. The Bible teaches men their place and who they are. No the European could never let this happen. The Early Illumanati created this nation separate from God being governed by man's rules. Yes brother this is the world we live in. A world where anything goes and God is make believe. See brother in our communities we must lose our fear of the other the man. I hate to hear someone what "they" ain't gone let us do or have. The Bible equips us so that we will live to our full glory. The problem is we have not been complete true to the word of God. This is why the word of God has not worked for us because we have not worked the word. Again brother lack of faith is our downfall. Not in God, not in eachother, not in ourselves.

The Problem is we have not been completely true to the word of God. This is why the word of God has not worked for us because we have not worked the word

While I fundamentally agree with this comment. I have to pause here and ask what God are we talking about. Before were enslaved we had our own African God that had no connection to christianity and even Islam in many instances.

So I agree with your premise but I don't accept the implicit reference of the christian God.

 

[Radical Faith]

While I fundamentally agree with this comment. I have to pause here and ask what God are we talking about. Before were enslaved we had our own African God that had no connection to christianity and even Islam in many instances.

So I agree with your premise but I don't accept the implicit reference of the christian God.

I believe God has been the same for all people. As humans our relationship with God has changed. God has required different things from different people ultimately leading to the same goal. That goal is a closer relationship with God.


Peace

Radical Faith