Black People : How would you rate George Dubya during this crisis?

dnommo

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Bakari,

first of all...WELCOME..Second of all, OF COURSE NOT. The Taliban has taken a strong stance against the United States and they don't appreciate the threats made by the White House. Although turning over Bin Laden would resolve a lot of issues and heal so much pain, that i don't see happening. The Taliban would rather die than to turn over their main source of income...

I return the mic to you and ask how you feel about it?
 

shaneak

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Well....

From what I heard on the news.. Pakistan had agreed to help the US in return for them helping their economy... So i"m not very clear on what you guys are discussing... Now.. is Afghanistan (unless that is the Taliban) going to turn him over.. Fat Chance..

Bakari: Thank you.. and i do agree with that.. Also though.. my views aren't really emotional... I look at things in my perception... based on my beliefs and what i feel is safe for our society. If was emotional.. I might would haven't wanted to retaliate like so many americans....

Kem.. You make me laugh.. always have.:D and i agree with you.. but the question is how does the US plan to handle this.. President Bush said it would take at least 2 months to set up Baracades or Position themselves around Afghanistan and he also stated that this war may take years..

Dnommo: See my opinions are based on what i read.. hear and see on TV and in our society for that matter. So most of what i say... just like what is stated up above.. I got it all off the news.. channel 11 if you would like to know.. I don't believe in giving out false information.. My intent is not to convince someone that my thinking is right.. I'm a very open minded person.. I don't believe in judging or assuming and I try my best not to contradict myself for I see it occurs so frequently in our society even though i do it from time to time. So even though you may not think my views are all that accurate.. I find them to be very informative.. For in my eyes.. you would have to start some where.. Thats just like me sitting on this site and watching everyone else spit out their views and me believing it with no proof...
 

shaneak

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I'm sorry...

I felt the need to correct myself: Now.. is Afghanistan (unless that is the Taliban) going to turn him over.. The taliban is not Afghanistan....
 

shaneak

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also...

I received this email today.. from which and Afghanistan wrote.. though you guys would like to read it: Dear Gary and whoever else is on this email thread:
>>
>>I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan
>>back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that
>>this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do
>>with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral
>>damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit
>>discussing
>>whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."
>>
>>And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard
>>because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35
>>years
>>I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell
>>anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
>>
>>I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden.
>>There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the
>>atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those
>>monsters.
>>
>>But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're
>>not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of
>>ignorant
>>psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is
>>a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis.
>>When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people
>>of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."
>>
>>It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity.
>>They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult
>>if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the
>>rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
>>
>>Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the
>>Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated,
>>suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are
>>500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy,
>>no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying
>>these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land
>>mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few
>>of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
>>
>>We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to
>>the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of
>>it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level
>>their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.
>>Eradicate
>>their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off
>>from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all
>>that.
>>
>>New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would
>>they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan,
>>only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd
>>slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled
>>orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But
>>flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against
>>the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only
>>be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people
>>they've been raping all this time
>>
>>So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now
>>speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is
>>to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly
>>to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the
>>belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral
>>qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the
>>sand.
>>What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because
>>some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan
>>to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because
>>to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would
>>they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be
>>first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going.
>>We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.
>>
>>And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly
>>what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements.
>>It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the
>>West. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the
>>world
>>into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks
>>a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing
>>left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view.
>>He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would
>>mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just
>>theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
>>
>>Tamim Ansary
 

Bakari

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Sep 18, 2001
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Dnommo

I appreciate the welcome.... I do not agree that turning Bin Laden over will resolve this issue.... He has followers of million+ that would fight to their death if such an agreement was made which would cause more heart ache and pain on the lives of many. It is known that the Taliban does not appreciate threats made by the US which is why I can not understand how and why every step made to resolve this situation is broadcast throughout the world with statements demanding Bin Laden being turned over, threats of war, more sanctions, and adding more economic hardship to a country where mothers have watched their own children die due to a need of medical attention....... and I now return the mic to you.....
Shaneak
In regards to your statement.. your perceptions are based on the life you lead... so what works for you may not work for all and as far as the news...... we see and hear what they want us to hear...
 

dnommo

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Mar 19, 2001
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Teacher of English, Literature & Poetry
how true but some of the statements you've made have been, for one, quite contradicting as well as inaccurate.

Case in point. When you discussed the qualifications of Bush you stated that "he was not even in his thirties" which could be led to understand that you meant he was younger. What was your meanig behind this statement so that i may understand.

Second, your statement about "military experience was needed"
was incorrect but when "called" on it instead of leaving it alone you acknowledge the inaccuracy but then attempted to support it with the statement that "military experience is preferred." This is also an inaccuracy but i choose to ignore it.

My whole premise from the beginning is that opinions comes from facts. Most opinions can be supported by what is read and indulged by the one who holds true to the opinion. As Bakari stated, much of your views are highly opinionated but when someone speaks of your inaccuracies you attempt to support it with more rhettoric. I'm not hear to persuade you to accept my views. I want to hear and respect your views but i find it difficult when the views lack a factual evidence.

As for the Pakistanian governement helping the United States. Well, they are very apprehensive about it but are willing to open their air space to the U.S.. This came before the offer of econimc assiatance because at this point, the U.S. is trying to figure out how to stabilize the economy while pursuing the concept of WAR on Terrorism. Money is a major part of it but even more is the fact that Pakistan runs the risk of upheaval in its own land due to many thousands of BinLaden supporters as well as Taliban supporters in their country. The money would not help if there is no country to defend.

Might i suggest you continue to strengthen your knowledge by following MSNBC.COM , NEWSWEEK ,CSPAN and many other links to help keep you up on the latest information.

It simply comes down to this. You stated that you've heard worse than what i spoke before which means someone has a pretty strong opinion of you. Although i don't know what that opinion is my views on the subject is this. When an opinion is given there will always be someon there to say "How do you figure that?" If you cannot back your words then your opinion is unfounded.

Being highly opinionated is not a sign of strength nor wisdom especially when that opinion leads the receiver to beleive that person doesn't know what they are talking about. Obtaining a little information from a few new reports and then expressing emotional filled opinions can cause confusion.

Actually this shall be my last recouse on this subject for this forum was created to discuss the topic of Bush not clarity of opinions. If you want to continue this further we can open another line of discussion. I'm sure My brother Kemet would not mind...
 

dnommo

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Bakari,

I agree with you because you have a point. It will be futile to turn him over simply because theleader maydie but the cause will go on. Now the sad occurance in Afghanistan is sad but it is not truly as bed as we see it. With a goevernemnt that is afraid of one man but need that man's money, they are willing to do what they must to keep "the open checkbook." If you read the email Shaneak posted you will see someone attempting to dispel the power of the Taliban. The truth is this, Afghanistan wants the Taliban gone but they don't know how to do it. Their only strength was the leader who was murder two days before the WTC attacks. You see if he had been in office then there would be no problem with finding and destroying Bin Laden as well as the Taliban. I find it sad that the country is suffering and the U.S. bombing it won't help. The real question is how to reach and destropy the seed of evil that Bin Laden has planted.

I must go to lunch but i shall retrun to read your views...

giving the mic back to Bakari...

Of FYI, not everything is being broadcast as to what the U.S. is plannign to do. There has been a media security ban placed on the news when it comes down tot he particulars of Bush's plans. In other words, we will only hear what they want us to hear...
 

epiphany

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MEMBER
The other side of the coin.......

I think as american people we are so use to believing that everything we see, everything we hear and everything that is published is facts. In every disagreement there is two perceptions. I in no way condone what happened in New York, it is truly an American tragedy.....but this country has been built on tragedy, past and present. Our tragedy is no more important then any suffering that goes on in this world. I tend to not be narrow-minded in my thinking, I believe from every action there is a reaction. As African Americans, we more then anyone should understand oppression and understand that not all of what the United States say is bond. I'm glad Shaneak brought this post, so that we can see that the Unites States is Sleeping with the enemy, and just perhaps the true blame is not with Osama
Bin Laden but the fact that.....Osama Bin Laden, Fidel Castro, Saddam Hussein, were all CIA trained. Sooner or later the abused dog will bite the hand that feeds it. Dnommo, I respect your opinion, for backing up comments with facts, but sometimes opinions just come down to common sense. I think it was Bishop(sorry if I'm wrong) in one of his posting directed us to check out alternet.com, what I found there was unbelieveable........According to this site in May Bush just awarded the Taliban with $43 million dollars. So I don't say this crime should go unpunished but I do say don't let the emotions of the act cloud your judgement....because we have been bamboozled by the media many times and this is no different. Lets not be so niave to think that there is some dealings going on that is not reported by the media, and that we don't know about. These people may have a legitimate reasons for hating the US(again I want to stress that it does not excuse what they did). I think this last election proved that the American people's wishes is secondary to political gain and control. So if you want to see the other side of the coin, check out this site, you may be surprised what you will find.........

I would like to thank Bakari, J'hiah and Kem for their posting....and Dnommo feel free to go off the subject anytime........Epiphany:heart:
 

shaneak

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Oh and Epiphany...

Thank you for allowing me to express my views. This was a very interesting topic.. I'm not sure how it go so heated but well never mind i do.. But anyways... I enjoyed learning others views as well as expressing my own.

Thanks!!!
:toast:
 

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