Jails / Prisons : How Do We Keep Young Black Men From Going To Prison?

RAPTOR

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I gather from all of this that your answer is that the criminal justice system should turn a blind eye to crime within our community?
This is a strawman. You manufactured a point and posed an argument against a point that isn't mind.

They should allow those who sell drugs to our people to do so unabated, those who murder our young men over drugs and trivial internal squables should be allowed to roam free among us to murder
Assuming that the 'they' are the white supremist who run the justice system, they allow all these things not because they "should", but because it serves their interest that we stay messed up in order for them to dominate us.

Now, you can blame anyone and everyone in the world that you want to...that doesn't solve the problem
What you refer to as blame, I refer to as an attempt to get at the root of our problem with regard to violence and criminality. And in doing so does not exsolve us of our responsibilites.

Now then,

If you agree that your afrikan anscestors did not come over here as morally corrupt as you find some of their descendants today, then what happend? If you agree that there was a time in this country when the family unit was tight, then what happend? If you, aren't willing to grapple with that then much of what you say is merely tangential.

However, I will submit that continuing to ask these questions:
Why is there no outcry internally calling for those who are murdering, stealing, selling poison, and initiating violence within our community to stop doing so??? Why is the only outcry directed towards those who are working to seperate those who are doing these things from those of us who are victims of these things????
..."Doesn't solve the problem", either. I will even hazard to say, you know why.

There has been, and is, an outcry.
The fault is we, too many of us -that is, are looking at this matter linearly and not holistically. The acts of crime and violence does not happen in a vacuum.

I want to know HOW you propose we solve the problem of crime in our communities that are destructive to us if you don't deal with the individuals who are committing those crimes???
What I propose is that we as a nation within a nation, seriously reappraise and analyze the origins of our condition with respect to violence and criminality. Take that information gain from the analysis and teach it to our children, especially our young black males. If we don't do that then we will continue to "deal with the individuals who are committing those crimes".

I remember years back when a Brother would end up dead and there where no witnesses, we knew the murderer would never be found because we felt white policemen did not care about a dead Brother enough to conduct a true and diligent investigation. We faulted the police for this.
This hasn't changed.

Now, there of those among us who want to flip this script...rather than faulting the police for not caring about crime within our community, we are faulting them for arresting and prosecuting those who are committing destructive crimes within our community.
No.

We aren't faulting the cops for doing their jobs under the law, it's when they act above the law in our community and get away with it is when we get upset.

And even when we are wrong in our accusations against the cops, it is deeply rooted in the historic track record of police brutality and gangsterism demonstrated by the cops in particular, the justice system in particular where black folks are conserned.

What do you expect of the white man as far as crime within the Black community? What do you want him to do?
It is not what he does with regard to crime in the black nation, but analyzing what he does and how he is doing it and why. That's what I want us to do. Then use that information as tools to significantly wound the beast that is crime and violence black communities that works in the interest of white supremacy.
 

Full Speed

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This is a strawman. You manufactured a point and posed an argument against a point that isn't mind.
No, I have not manufactured a point. I have directed this conversation towards the reality of crimes within our community that are destructive to our own. This topic is about how do we keep young black men from going to prison. The reality is that behind the vast majority of black young men in prison is a black victim or the collective black community is negatively effected by the actions of those who are in prison.

What is manufactured about that? I don't care rather this was YOUR point or not, it is MY point. This thread is about keeping young black men from going to prison, well, the answer is simple. Stop committing crime. Many in this thread act as though most of the young men in prison are innocent. They fail to look at the fact that they leave victims in their wake and in most cases, they look like us.

Now, I too desire to see less of our people behind bars. In fact, I would love to see the day when none of our people are behind bars. But, I want every man who commits a crime against me or my community to receive just punishment. If that means incarceration, then so be it. I can't turn a blind eye to those who victimize me, my family, or my community.

We can't just say "we have too many people in prison". This focuses on sympathy for the criminal. How about "We have too many people being victimized by our own folks". If they stop victimizing our folks, they will stop going to prison. Do you want murderers free among us? Do you want those who sell drugs to continue doing so? What keeps this guy who sells drugs from going to school and getting a job?

I am not willing to be victimized and allow the criminal to walk free for the sake of having less people in prison.

Until you deal with that reality, rather than claiming it as some manufactured strawman, you are simply not dealing with the existance of crime and how to handle it in the HERE, NOW and NOW.

Under the current system, for the most part, any black man can avoid prison simply by the choices he makes. I have an uncle who used to tell me all the time, "I ain't going to prison for nobody". What he was saying was, "I choose not to do this or that because it could result in me going to prison" He has never spent a day of his life behind bars. This freedom of choice is available to most everyone who chooses to commit crimes. So, my sympathy goes towards their victims.


No.

We aren't faulting the cops for doing their jobs under the law, it's when they act above the law in our community and get away with it is when we get upset.
I get upset at this as well, but this thread is not about cops acting above the law, it is about young black men going to prison. Most young black men in prison are not there because a cop acted above the law, but because they committed a crime.

Talk about manufacturing strawmen.

It is not what he does with regard to crime in the black nation, but analyzing what he does and how he is doing it and why. That's what I want us to do. Then use that information as tools to significantly wound the beast that is crime and violence black communities that works in the interest of white supremacy.
The answer is in simplicity. Stop committing crimes = stop going to prison. Develop an "I ain't going to prison for nobody" mentality and you won't go to prison. That is the ONLY answer in the current situation. All of this high falutent idealogy about white supremacy might be true, but there is nothing that keeps a brother out of prison like making the choice to avoid crime. Simple, but EXTREMELY effective. That is the fact, that is reality. NO CRIME= NO TIME. Not to mention the fact that the community is not left victims in the wake of individuals choices to indulge in crime.
 

RAPTOR

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No, I have not manufactured a point.
What was it that you gathered from my "answer"? That was the strawman, for nothing you can take from my previous response states or even suggest that the criminal justice system, "should" turn a blind eye..." I am saying that they do, because it's in the interest of the justice system. Money, Fullspeed, is made off of crime for the justice system. Eliminating crime is not in the interest of the justice system. I say this as an example and in effort that we go beneath the surface of the matter.

This topic is about how do we keep young black men from going to prison.
Yeah, however your oversimplified proposals is merely saying:

Stop committing crime.
If they stop victimizing our folks, they will stop going to prison
NO CRIME= NO TIME
If they stop victimizing our folks, they will stop going to prison.
You tell me, how far does these mere statements, statements often echoed in our communities to this day, go towards "how do we keep young black men from going to prison?".

Many in this thread act as though most of the young men in prison are innocent. They fail to look at the fact that they leave victims in their wake and in most cases, they look like us.
You seem to fail by not making an effort to diagnose why they, we, are going to prison in the first place. What is happening that we see our young males going to jail and why.

This involves in depth analysis, as I've been saying consistently, and you don't seem to wanna grapple with it. The easiest thing to say, like nancy reagon, is "just say no".

"Many" on this thread know its not that simple, for if it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Someone would've went out and chanted those words like a magic spell and the problem would then be no more.

But, I want every man who commits a crime against me or my community to receive just punishment. If that means incarceration, then so be it. I can't turn a blind eye to those who victimize me, my family, or my community.
Fullspeed, you said the thread was about how to keep young males from getting behind bars. Waxing passionately renders no possible solutions, nor does speaking to the obvious.

Do you want murderers free among us? Do you want those who sell drugs to continue doing so?
No and no.

What keeps this guy who sells drugs from going to school and getting a job?
That is a good question. Your first step in this thread towards analyzing a situation that ills many of our communities. However, let me say this:

Selling drugs is an economic based issue, not a moral based one. So to that extent we should analyze economic realities [and myths] that the black nation is facing and how the economy affects society. I'm talking about socioeconomic reality and we can agree that this deserves a thread of its own, but I just wanted to put that out there.

I am not willing to be victimized and allow the criminal to walk free for the sake of having less people in prison.
Nothing wrong with that only it renders no possible solutions. You're waxing passionately about you as an individual.

you are simply not dealing with the existance of crime and how to handle it in the HERE, NOW and NOW.
Fullspeed, what I gather from you is a short term solution, which is incarceration.

Okay, if one is justly tried and convicted of a crime they should do the time. No arguments there.

Now then, what do you propose in the long term? Please do not reiterate oversimplifcations pointed out previously in this post.

We must work to elevate the level of consciousness in the black nation. There are many avenues to that end. Simply advocating a "just say no" concept doesn't cut the mustard. I and a few others who are members of this discussion board recommended studying the works of those more erudite and have dedicated their professional lives to gathering and documenting the information for us to use in order to remedy many of the ills of our communities. Black males and prison is no exception. Many have done the work for us. Its a matter of following up that which they have done in the service of our black nation, which you and I are apart of.

Sometime ago, Putney Swoop had recommended works of amos wilson and claud anderson for you. Have you followed up his advice?

Under the current system, for the most part, any black man can avoid prison simply by the choices he makes.
You didn't take into account the conditions from whence they come from.

Their support system, or lack thereof. But we find here in the following:
I have an uncle who used to tell me all the time, "I ain't going to prison for nobody". What he was saying was, "I choose not to do this or that because it could result in me going to prison" He has never spent a day of his life behind bars. This freedom of choice is available to most everyone who chooses to commit crimes.
Right here, you make my point for me by illustrating an example of what I mean by support system. Many are not as fortunate as you, or I, to have a support system arbitrarily of this caliber.

... this thread is not about cops acting above the law, it is about young black men going to prison. Most young black men in prison are not there because a cop acted above the law, but because they committed a crime.

Talk about manufacturing strawmen.
Uh, Fullspeed... Yes or no; was it not you who said:
we knew the murderer would never be found because we felt white policemen did not care
We faulted the police for this
Cops=policeman, no? Therefore, you brought them up, not I.

I suggest you reevaluate what a strawman argument is.

Second: The thread is titled ""How Do We Keep Young Black Men From Going To Prison". The operative word being "How".


The answer is in simplicity.

Stop committing crimes = stop going to prison.
The, your, answer to the problem is simple -in stating, but the solutions is not so simple as that.

Develop an "I ain't going to prison for nobody" mentality and you won't go to prison. That is the ONLY answer in the current situation.
Illustrate a process for developing this mentality. I will give you credit, for even on the periphery, this speaks to conciousness.

All of this high falutent idealogy about white supremacy might be true,
This statemen shows that you have not made considerable study and analysis of white supremacy. For if you did, you would not say "might be". It would either be true or not be true. Don't straddle the fence. The only thing found in the middle of the road is a dead armadillo.

Simple, but EXTREMELY effective. That is the fact, that is reality. NO CRIME= NO TIME. Not to mention the fact that the community is not left victims in the wake of individuals choices to indulge in crime.
Fullspeed if it was so simple, "extemely effective", as you say, then the problem with regard to young black males going to jail would've been dealt with, which demonstrates why it isn't as simple as you continue to exclaim.
 

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sho ya right , I guess to get a full answer is to have an solution to this continue problem
we face on a daily base .
 

Full Speed

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This statemen shows that you have not made considerable study and analysis of white supremacy. For if you did, you would not say "might be". It would either be true or not be true. Don't straddle the fence. The only thing found in the middle of the road is a dead armadillo.



Fullspeed if it was so simple, "extemely effective", as you say, then the problem with regard to young black males going to jail would've been dealt with, which demonstrates why it isn't as simple as you continue to exclaim.
In my house, it has been dealt with. As a father of "young black males", I find simplicity IS "extremely effective." I do not believe my sons will ever spend a day behind bars. BUT, they know that going to prison is based upon a choice between doing right or doing wrong, obedience to the law or disobedience. It has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with moral choices. The OPTION ALWAYS exist to do right. We ALWAYS have the OPTION to CHOOSE to do the right thing. You cannot give me an realistic example of a situation inwhich doing the right thing is no longer an option.

To my "young black males" I have made it clear, "DO THE RIGHT THING". I have also made it clear, that if they choose not to do the right thing and choose rather to victimize another individual or worse yet our community, I want them to get their just punishment. So, yes, I stick to my simplistic idea that NO CRIME = NO TIME. It may be simple, but I assure you it is not "Over simplified". How could it be oversimplified when that simple concept has worked for everyone I know? Of those that I know who have done time, it was because they had committed a crime, they were not innocent.

Since you have done an indebt study and analaysis of white supremacy, you should realize that white people will not be coming to our rescue, they will not be a part of the solution to reducing the number of young black males in our prison system. That being said, it is TOTALLY up to us!!! So, specifically, what can be done By US to reduce the Black prison population? As much as you hate to admit it, the only logical way is to reduce the crime rate, that is our young black males must chose to "Do the right thing" as opposed to doing the wrong thing. The fact is, unless we have less crime/criminals, we will NEVER have less young black men in prison, and rightfully so. Because, as you said, you certainly don't want to turn a blind eye to crime. So, you obviously know we can't have it both ways. So, the bottom line is we must reduce crime.

Lets be clear, White supremacy does not remove the option of young black men to do the right thing. You claim crime to be an economic choice rather than a moral choice, you show me a criminal who committed a crime for economics reasons and I will show you a dozen other ways he could have earned enough money to meet his NEEDS in a legitimate manner that help someone else rather than victimize someone else. He choose the short-cut.

All of this being said, I cannot keep all young black men out of prison, but my simple answer works each time it is applied. We need more black fathers who give their young black men the guidance to do the right thing. Giving them the idea that it is understandable that the crimes they commit that victimize other individuals because white supremacy places them in a situation where the have no choice to do right is simply lying to them. What is the point in telling our youth that white supremacy has the power over them to remove the option to act positively towards their community????? or that when in an economic distress, actions which will probably result in them landing in prison or optional??? They need to hear the simple answer, and the simple answer will set them free or give them their just punishment if they still choose to act against other individuals or their own community.
 

Clyde C Coger Jr

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In the Spirit of Sankofa and Truth!

Since you have done an indebt study and analaysis of white supremacy, you should realize that white people will not be coming to our rescue, they will not be a part of the solution to reducing the number of young black males in our prison system. That being said, it is TOTALLY up to us!!! So, specifically, what can be done By US to reduce the Black prison population? As much as you hate to admit it, the only logical way is to reduce the crime rate, that is our young black males must chose to "Do the right thing" as opposed to doing the wrong thing. The fact is, unless we have less crime/criminals, we will NEVER have less young black men in prison, and rightfully so. Because, as you said, you certainly don't want to turn a blind eye to crime. So, you obviously know we can't have it both ways. So, the bottom line is we must reduce crime.



Brother Full Speed(Ahead:)),

It's been a minute, however I fully endorse the above and enjoyed reading it. We need more like you Full Speed, keep up the pace:), I mean race...Peace In my brother friend, for real!

 

Full Speed

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Brother Full Speed(Ahead:)),

It's been a minute, however I fully endorse the above and enjoyed reading it. We need more like you Full Speed, keep up the pace:), I mean race...Peace In my brother friend, for real!

Hello my brother and friend, yes it has been a minute. Life gets busy from time to time. I appreciate the endorsement. We are all in this thing together.
 

Clyde C Coger Jr

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In the Spirit of Sankofa and Truth!

Hello my brother and friend, yes it has been a minute. Life gets busy from time to time. I appreciate the endorsement. We are all in this thing together.



Not a problem Full Speed, no, not at all.

 

RAPTOR

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...you should realize that white people will not be coming to our rescue, they will not be a part of the solution to reducing the number of young black males in our prison system.
Of course I realize it. I mentioned in one of my post how it is in their interest to lock us up. It, the criminal system, makes money and shareholders want a return on their investment.

As much as you hate to admit it, the only logical way is to reduce the crime rate, that is our young black males must chose to "Do the right thing" as opposed to doing the wrong thing.
Yet we, you and I, aren't our young black males, so the question is still, "How Do We Keep Young Black Men From Going To Prison?".

You claim crime to be an economic choice rather than a moral choice
Oh, did I?

...Take a gander at the following:

Selling drugs is an economic based issue, not a moral based one.

All of this being said, I cannot keep all young black men out of prison
No one is charging you with the sole responsibility of doing that, which is why the original poster asked, "How Do We Keep Young Black Men From Going To Prison?".

We need more black fathers who give their young black men the guidance to do the right thing, Giving them the idea that it is understandable that the crimes they commit that victimize other individuals because white supremacy places them in a situation where the have no choice to do right is simply lying to them.
Full Speed, brotha, you are off course like the s.s. minow.

"Understandible", does not mean it is acceptible. 'Kay?

It is not enough to just say don't do the crime.

I hope that brotha's tell their sons why they shouldn't do the crime. And to also explain to their sons that being black, a black male, in this country puts them behind the 8-ball, putting it in proper context.

I hope the brotha's get their sons to understand that committing crime and violence works in the survice of white suprimacy and that we should not do the enemy any favors. Which, yet again, speaks to elevating the level of conciousness in the minds of our young black males and our people, which goes further than to just, say, enter a room full of young brotha's, merely saying to them, 'don't do the crime', then make an exit. That may work with adult males, theoretically mature and have aqcuired real life experience. But with young black males. They need more, for obvious reasons.
 

Full Speed

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Full Speed, brotha, you are off course like the s.s. minow.

"Understandible", does not mean it is acceptible. 'Kay?

It is not enough to just say don't do the crime.

I hope that brotha's tell their sons why they shouldn't do the crime. And to also explain to their sons that being black, a black male, in this country puts them behind the 8-ball, putting it in proper context.

I hope the brotha's get their sons to understand that committing crime and violence works in the survice of white suprimacy and that we should not do the enemy any favors. Which, yet again, speaks to elevating the level of conciousness in the minds of our young black males and our people, which goes further than to just, say, enter a room full of young brotha's, merely saying to them, 'don't do the crime', then make an exit. That may work with adult males, theoretically mature and have aqcuired real life experience. But with young black males. They need more, for obvious reasons.
Let me make sure you understand something. I am not talking theory here. I am talking from experience. Have you raised young black males and led them to a successful, productive life??? I have. Do you even have a son or sons? Does he/them live under your roof? Until you have raise a son and brought him to the point where he is a self-sustaining, self-confident, self-reliant, productive individual who knows how to duplicate that process with his own children, you are ill-prepared to tell me I am off course.

It is clear from your dialogue you HAVE NOT "been there, done that".

You clearly do not understand the terms "Character" and "Integrity". Having "been there, done that" I not only understand these terms, but diligently instilled them into my sons. While these principles are not as common as they should be, they are quickly recognized and rewarded universally. Sure, there is no doubt that a young black man is behind the 8 ball, if you will, but with strong character instilled in them, they can quickly get in front of the 8 ball and surpass their counterparts.

With these principles, as well as other character traits, they are not reliant upon white people for jobs although they will be sought after. They have choices. They can be entreprenurs, or they can be well compansated leaders in the business world. The point is, relative to this tread, that staying out of prison is an automatic benefit of strong character.

Remember, I am not talking theory here, I am talking from real world facts and experience. I doubt very seriously that you can say the same. So, unless, you have some real world experience with raising a son to be a man who does not have to worry about prison, you don't have much you can say to me that would have any real meaning.

The best solution for keeping our young black men out of prison is a father under their roof diligently and daily instilling character into them. Until they have that character and have embraced these values as their own, they need a strong father there kicking their butts and enforcing discipline in their lives.

People like you cannot envision this as being a possibility. Organizations like 100 black men and other groups that make an effort within our community to compensate for the lack of strong fathers in the home of our young black males should be commended for their efforts, but be assured you will find U]very few black men with strong, supportive, fathers who are involved in their DAILY lives sitting behind bars today.[/U]

Did I mention, I am talking from experience. Experience trumps theory everytime.
 

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