Black Spirituality Religion : Formless God!!!

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by dattaswami1, Jan 19, 2008.

  1. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Whenever you think about God, the thinking itself is a form made of awareness or mind, even though you claim that you are thinking about formless God. You can never think anything, which is formless because your thinking itself is a form. The form may have some specific boundaries like a statue. Alternatively, the form may not have specific boundaries like air or water. But the air or water also has some regular or irregular boundaries, since even the air or water has certain limits. You call space as a formless object. But space has some limitations somewhere and you do not perceive those limits. Such limits may not be perceived but they certainly exist. Therefore, the concept of your formless object has some boundaries, which are either irregular or not perceived.

    When you think of God as Awareness (Chit), the awareness is ‘mind’, which is nervous energy. Energy is in the form of waves and thus cannot be formless. According to the special theory of relativity of Einstein, space is also a form of energy because space exhibits the property of bending. In that case, space also cannot be formless. Even if you consider space as infinite vacuum, you are aware of the space. Such awareness itself means that space has become a form of awareness or mental energy. Therefore, strictly speaking there is no formless object in the creation. What you call as formless is an object, which has either irregular or infinite boundaries and which is imagined. Since, such a formless object is a form in the strict sense, an actual formless concept is impossible.


    Therefore, whether you say that God created space or God created energy in the beginning, both statements mean the same because space is also a form of energy. The Veda said that Parabrahman created the space in the beginning (Atmana Akasah…). The Veda says again that Parabrahman created energy in the beginning (Tat Tejo…). Both the Vedic statements mean the same in terms of the latest concept of science. However, let such space or energy be called as the Formless God in your language. Thinking of such a Formless God, it becomes very very difficult for any ordinary human being. Even a scholar cannot maintain such a concept in his mind for a long time. Even if you are able to maintain such a concept in your mind, such a God is not the absolute God because the absolute God is completely unimaginable as per the Veda and the Gita (Yasyaa matam…, Maamtu Veda Na…). God imagined as space or awareness (mental energy) is not the absolute God, who is beyond space and awareness. The Veda says that God created space. The Veda says that God is beyond awareness. The creator is always beyond the creation. Even in the absence of the creation, the creator must exist.

    According to the Brahma Sutras, God is the cause of this universe as its Creator and is the material cause of the universe too. The pot-maker is the creator of the pot. The mud is the material cause of the pot. Even in the absence of the pot, the pot-maker and the mud exist. Therefore, God existed even before the creation of the universe. The pot-maker and the mud exist even after the destruction of the pot. Similarly, even after the destruction of the world, God must exist. Thus God must exist before the creation of space and after the dissolution of space. You can never imagine the situation before the creation or after the dissolution of space. Your intelligence cannot cross the spatial dimensions and therefore cannot cross the concept of space. That means you can never imagine God. The Veda says that God alone knows God (Brahma vit Brahmaiva…).

    Therefore, when you imagine God as the all-pervading space, such an imagination itself is only an item of creation. Such imagination is only an incarnation of God. When you imagine Him as space, you imagine the God who has entered the space and is in the space. Similarly, if you imagine God as all-pervading energy, you have imagined only the energy in which God is present. Therefore, you perceive God as space, inert energy or mental energy (awareness) such forms of God are only the incarnations of God in the forms of space, inert energy or awareness respectively. This means that you can perceive only an incarnation of God and never the absolute God.
    When you perceive God as space, you call God as formless. If this space is taken as vacuum or ‘nothingness’, then God does not exist as per Buddhism or the older concept of science. But now science accepts space as a form of energy. Therefore, according to science ‘nothingness’ does not exist at all. According to science, the example of ‘nothingness’ is space itself and now the space has also become ‘something’. Therefore, now a scientist cannot say that God does not exist because non-existence or ‘nothing’ is vacuum or space, which also is a form of energy. Buddhism adopted ancient logic, which like the older concept of science, believed that space was non-existence of anything. Since, science, which is the modern logic overrules the ancient logic, Buddhism is naturally rejected by the modern science. If a scientist says that God does not exist, he is a no more a scientist because he is not aware of the latest special theory of relativity. Thus, an atheist is an outdated scientist. All the modern scientists, who are aware of the latest concept of space, have to believe in the existence of God.



    Therefore, when you cannot perceive God in His original form and you can perceive God only through some medium of creation like space or energy or awareness, why not perceive God through the medium of matter also? Now if God exists in space, it means that God is exists in this universe. If God is present in the universe, the universe cannot be a separate object of entertainment to God. The Veda says that this universe is created for His entertainment (Ekaki Na...). If you are present in the cinema and become the cinema by pervading all over the cinema, the cinema is not a separate object for you and therefore it cannot give entertainment to you. If you are the spectator of the cinema, you should be separate from the cinema. You are the subject and the cinema is object, which is separate from you. If the subject and object are one and the same, there is no existence of the object at all. It means God did not create this universe. If the creation is absent, there is no entertainment to God. This leads to the inability of God in creating any object that is separate from Himself for His entertainment. Such inability makes God impotent and then God cannot be Omnipotent. Therefore, the separate existence of the universe in which God is not present, must be accepted to avoid all these contradictions.

    Now the Veda says that God entered this universe (Tadevanu Pravisat…). But the Veda does not say that God entered the entire universe. God entered the Universe only through some limited form. Therefore, the entrance of God in to the universe is accepted. At the same time since God did not enter the entire universe, the universe exists as a separate object for His entertainment.

    You may argue that God entered the entire universe as per a Vedic statement (Eesha vasyam idam…). But if you carefully analyze that statement, it also means that God enters this big universe only through a small form. The translation of that Vedic statement reveals the correct meaning like this: “In this large world, any small world can be pervaded over by the Lord entirely”. This is the true translation. The small world means the human body and the big world means this entire universe. This means that the Lord enters this big world through a small world, which is the human form. The human form alone can be called as a mini-world. The large world contains nine items, which are the inert five elements (earth, water, energy, air and space) and the four living items called as Antah karanams (mind, intelligence, self-awareness or egoism and the awareness which stores all the information). All these nine items are common between this large world and the small human being. Therefore, the conclusion of the Veda is that God enters this large world through a small human form. This can be explained by common experience also.

    A spectator, who is seeing the cinema, wishes to take up a role in the cinema. Thus, he enters the cinema through a role and the cinema still entertains him. Therefore, the Gita also says that God enters this world only through a human form. The Gita also says that God becomes a Jeeva or human form by entering such a human form (Jeeva Bhutah…). You have entered the role or the dress of a king in the drama, which means that you have become the king in the drama. For all the practical purposes you are the king in the drama. But you retain your identity as the actor in the role and therefore you have not become the king in the true sense. The audience can treat you as the king but at the same time they are aware that you are not the real king. Similarly the devotees treat the human incarnation as God for all practical purposes.


    But whenever egoism and jealousy enter their minds, they can analyze and know that God is in the human form and therefore the human form is not really God. Neither has God become the human form nor has the human form become God. Such clarification will reduce their egoism and jealousy and their devotion can become again alive.


    Therefore, God cannot enter the (entire) space because if God enters this space, He becomes one with the Universe and His entertainment is lost. Therefore the power of God is material cause of this world. The power is modified into this world as the mud is modified into the pot. Therefore, the formless God, you think, is only the power of God and not the original God. Space is only the modification of the power of God, which is like the mud. God is like the pot-maker who is not modified into the pot. In this example let us assume that the pot-maker created the mud and then made the pot from the mud.

    While creating the mud, the Lord is the creator or designer as well as the material. But while creating the pot from the mud, God is only the pot-maker or designer. The pot-maker, while creating the mud, is not modified because only the power of the pot-maker is modified into mud. Therefore, the material cause for the mud is the power of the pot-maker and not the pot-maker directly. This is the concept of Dvaita (duality) of Madhva.
    In the concept of Ramanuja, which is called as ‘Visishta Advaita’ (qualified monism), the pot is considered as an associated body of the pot-maker. Instead of the pot, you can take the example of the cloth. The cotton thread is the material cause of the cloth. The weaver is the creator of the cloth. The weaver has created the thread and the power of the weaver is modified into thread as explained above. The weaver is wearing the cloth made by him and this point alone (association of the creator with the creation) is the extra concept in this theory. The weaver treats the cloth wrapped on his body as another external body of his. The Gita also says that your external gross body is like a shirt. Therefore, Ramanuja assumes this world as the body of God.


    The Advaita scholars mocked at this concept due to their ignorance. They said that if God were associated with the world, the changes in the world would mean the changes in the body of God, which means that God is changed. This is absolute foolishness. When the body is compared to an associated shirt, the changes in the shirt cannot be equated to the changes in the person who is wearing it. If you take the body of a realized soul like Ramana Maharshi, He treated his body as his shirt. He separated himself from the body and limited himself to the soul. He observed the surgery of his body like a person, who is the spectator of his shirt being stitched by somebody. Thus if you take God as a realized soul, the changes in this universe cannot touch God, in spite of His association with the universe. To reject the mocking of the Advaita Scholars, Madhva avoided the example of the weaver in which the wrapped cloth is treated as another external body. He took the example of a pot so that the pot cannot cover the body of its creator like the cloth. Therefore, the pot cannot be treated as an external body of its creator like the cloth.
     
  2. Keita Kenyatta

    Keita Kenyatta going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The Gita is an off-shoot also of ancient Kemetic spiritual Thought Processes, and whenever there is an off shoot there is equally distortion. You speak of a formless God but man and woman are equally formless in reality. We only call ourselves by the terminology of man and woman because of the body that our formless energy is in. What we define as God can not be some external entity that sits off somewhere looking at mankind and watching over us to see what we will and will not do. This anthropomorphic mind set has been the fuel of many religious thought processes that has the earth embroiled in division and self exclusiveness with the "My God or Our God" attachment. Since something can not come from nothing, even God had a beginning. The reality is that the conditioning of our minds which has no limits will not allow many of us without proper discipline and knowledge to know the reality of what we are as opposed to what we think we are.
     
  3. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    God is neither formless nor has form. In the creation both formless objects like air and form-full objects like earth exist. Because of this reason God is neither formless nor form-full since both are imaginable. Veda says that God is unimaginable. But God comes in human form, which is useful to the humanity in all directions. The main aim of the human form is preaching Divine Knowledge. That is why God has taken a human form which is very much useful to the humanity in various angles. You have to worship such form taken by God. He is not your servant to come in the form you desire. In Gita the Lord said that He will approach the devotee in the same path as the devotee approaches. This does not mean that He will take the form as you like. You can take any form you like which can be a representative of God (Pratika) but God does not exist in it.

    My point is that God is unimagianble, but such God comes in Human form to this earth to give His presence to us. He is here now, upon this earth. You can see Him talk to Him, and touch Him and co-live with Him. He gives all these facilities.
     
  4. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    God is here itself now on this very earth!!

    The Lord appears as a human incarnation in order to make Himself available to our direct perception. Thus He satisfies the Vedic statement 'yat sak?at aparok?at brahma, which means that the Lord is available to direct perception right here. The bhagavad gita also says the same thing; “manu?i? tanumasritam. When the Lord takes human form, it is important to recognize Him as the Lord. Prophet Mohammed gave thirty three signs to identify the human incarnation of the Lord. Thus actually Islam also accepts the human incarnation of God although the prevalent form of the religion is averse to this concept. When these signs are followed the human incarnation can be identified and the statements of the scriptures which assert the direct perception or pratyak?a prama?a are satisfied. People cannot accept God right in front of them owing to their ego and jealousy.

    They try to place God in some other world and some later time (after death). These are people with a lower maturity. The mature people who have conquered their ego and jealousy accept God in human form in this world. The ?gveda says ihacetavedit atha satyamasti na cetmahati vina??i, which means, “That which is here is true. That which is not here is not true”. The acceptance of the Lord right here, available to direct perception is desirable as it satisfies a scientist or a rationalist too. Science is based on direct perception as the means to establish the validity or existence of a statement or an entity. From the above discussion, God in human form is not an obscure, unverifiable entity. He is available here and now for direct perception. 'yat sak?at aparok?at brahma means that God is here itself. He is not to be known through some other medium of questionable validity but by direct perception. The statement that God is here, does not mean that every individual soul is God. The individual soul is certainly different from God. However God has taken up a particular human body and lives among us.

    Salvation is freedom from all worldly bonds. It is also here. It is not in some other world. In this world we have a lot of attachments. These bonds with other souls and material things impede our salvation. All such bonds are temporary and changing. Today we are attached to some person and tomorrow to someone else. Salvation consists in breaking all such temporary bonds. This is achieved by developing and nurturing the single permanent bond with God. In no relation, or no action performed for any other soul here, is there permanence. By attaching to God alone can one free oneself from all the temporary bonds of the world.

    The soul is made of the life energy or the superior energy called para prak?ti. The para prak?ti is a drop in the ocean of the totality of the superior energy called the para sakti or maya. The para sakti is the Power of the Lord. It gives rise to Creation. The individual soul has attachments to other souls which are also para prak?ti. Additionally it also has attachments with material things which are a grossified (inert) form of the para prak?ti called as apara prak?ti. The apara prak?ti includes all inert objects such as wealth, land, house, cars and so on. Now the individual soul is in this world. It has bonds to other souls and to inert objects, which are both in this world. The breaking of these bonds is also in this world. Therefore salvation is in this world. It is here and now. It is not after death, in some other unknown world.
     
  5. Keita Kenyatta

    Keita Kenyatta going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I appreciate your response but I already am aware of all you've said...your road has been walked by me. If we as African people were to fully adopt the spiritual philosophies you advocate, we'd be dying faster than we are now. WERE IN AN ACTUAL STATE OF WAR!!!!
     
  6. transform

    transform Active Member MEMBER

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    Well said King Kieta, I personally believe that God always has been and will always be, and that there is no beginning to the creator. I really am beginning to dislike the word God not only because it's dog spelled backward but because the inventor of the word and it's root being that of religion

    I personally just say Mother/Father creator. The word God we got from religion which is beginning to be well known and spreading fast to be created for evil intent with ill intent and has accomplished it's mission.

    With all due respect:bowdown:
     
  7. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    All the non-God items are worldly objects, which are parts of creation. All these items are known first and then only their existence is mentioned. When you say that a pot exists, it means that you are stating the existence since you know the pot already. Hence, the existence of any worldly item requires the knowledge of that item already. If you do not know anything about an item, you will not say that it exists. Hence, the existence always requires the prior knowledge of the item. But God is beyond world and is unimaginable since God is not known. Hence, the existence of God is not similar to the existence of the worldly items. Since the existence of worldly items, which requires prior knowledge of the item, is absent in the case of God, God can be said as an item not having the existence of worldly items and hence God is non-existent (Asat) in this sense. This does not mean that God is really non-existent because God really exists as per Veda (Astityeva….) and hence God exists (Sat).

    In Veda God is said to be both Sat and Asat (Sadeva Somya.., Asadvaa…). But in Gita God represented by Para Brahman is said to be neither Sat nor Asat (Nasat Naasaduchyate). This appears to be a contradiction between Veda and Gita. Sat means existence. Asat means non-existence. Let us take Veda. When God is Sat, it means God is not Asat. Similarly, when God is Asat, it means God is not sat. Hence, the resulting concept in each statement of Veda combined gives the concept of Gita. Thus, Veda and Gita are correlated because Gita is said to be the essence of all Vedas.
     
  8. dattaswami1

    dattaswami1 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    There are two root causes for the entire chaos and terrorism in this world. One is the thirst for earning money and the other is the religious fanatic. Due to money, people are quarreling, hereas due to religion, countries are quarreling. Unless these two root causes are eradicated we cannot achieve world peace. The tree will not die by cutting leaves and branches. It dies only by cutting its roots. There is no use in earning the extra money. Due to excess money, quarrels, mental worries and several other problems arise. Finally, it ends in loss only and not in any profit. You have to leave all this extra money here only and quit this world alone. Your issues may lose that money given by you. Such sinful extra money brings problems not only to you but also to your children. Neither yourself nor your children will be happy and peaceful. This entire world is the property of God and take whatever is required from it. This is said in Gita, (“Yavanartha….”).

    In these days, buffet system is followed during feasts. In this system, large vessels contain various food items and people take food from these vessels according to their requirement. Similarly, God created this entire world and you can take the wealth from it according to your requirement. People are not following the same system when they are taking wealth from this world. The peculiarity is that most rich people follow this buffet system in the feasts but do not follow the same when it comes to earning the money. ‘Esavasya Upanishad’ says that one should return back this extra money to the Lord. Otherwise, the Lord will give the troubles.

    In buffet system, if one takes extra food in his plate by over ambition and ignorance for a moment, he returns back immediately before starting eating. Veda says that you must return back the extra money for the God’s work if taken by ignorance. In the buffet system if you eat the extra food, you will suffer from diseases. Similarly, if you enjoy the extra money, God will punish you in several ways.

    In this world, people belonging to any religion think that their religion only is the true religion. They think that the God of their religion can alone give the salvation and the worship of that God should be according to their religion only. They also condemn other religions and invite people to convert people into their religion. They do lot of work to establish their religion only in the entire world which shows their ambition. It is just like Alexander’s ambition to make the entire world his kingdom. Alexander wanted to extend his kingdom. But, even he returned back after fighting with Porus (Purushotama) on seeing the loss of life in the battle. But, the ambition of religious fanatics is not subsided on seeing any amount of loss of life. Religion is considered to be backed with spiritual knowledge and the religious people are expected to be free from ambition. We can excuse ambition of any ignorant person like Alexander.

    The heart of a religious fanatic will not change by any amount of kindness or love expressed in the appeals. Such appeals can change only the heart and the change in the heart is always temporary. Change in the intelligence brought by knowledge based on logic is always real and permanent. Intelligence (Buddhi) is considered to be the driver of this body, which is like a chariot running by the senses, which are like the horses. If the driver is convinced, the entire chariot along with the horses is in the correct path. The terrorist will not change by love or kindness shown to him. He becomes the terrorist due to the wrong knowledge that enters his brain. He was convinced by that knowledge. That knowledge can be changed only by the right knowledge. A diamond can only be cut by another diamond. Similarly, one type of knowledge can only be replaced by another type of knowledge. Then only, he will be convinced and changed forever.

    So far, the trials made to change the terrorist were beating around the bush and therefore, they did not have much effect. Today, SRI GURU DATTA is giving the right knowledge to remove the religious conservatism.
     
  9. Angela22

    Angela22 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I believe the Father has a form, for the Son came as a sacrifice for our sins and showed the face of the Father. His form is simply One we cannot imagine, but One we should always believe in just as we believe in the Son's resurrection from the dead and all His holy works and truths. We simply need the faith the Son has brought, and must keep hope and belief that one day, we'll witness the form of the Almighty Most High in all His Glory. Blessings!
     
  10. willa

    willa Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    May I submit something? We are the children of God. We are made in His image. We are, according to Christ, gods -- yet to be proven. Ponies have baby ponies. Cats have kittens. Roses beget roses. We have a Heavenly Father, and we are the same genetic image of Him; even though mortal at this time; therefore, we know the absolute form He is. Read through the scriptures and you will see He sits on a throne and Christ sits down at His right hand. And by the way Christ is resurrected in a perfect, immortal, physical body of eternity and would require a perfect physical place to reside, like his Heavenly Father who he is residing with right now. No clouds and strumming harps. Think larger as in a universe that keeps expanding with infinity. There is a Kingdom glorious, in spirit that emanates from there throughout all with in the universe according to the evolution in development of worlds .
     
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