For The Noncustodial Parents In The House...

Discussion in 'Black Men - Fathers - Brothers - Sons' started by Mike Ramey, Nov 5, 2002.

  1. Mike Ramey

    Mike Ramey Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    CHILD SUPPORT AND CONSEQUENCES, PART 7

    As the holidays start to waft towards those who are non-custodial parents, the annual ‘guilt bags’ start to arrive on the doorstep. Yes, you have done your best to keep up your Child Support payments, regardless of the criticism levied at you by the mainstream press, the government, feminists, and custodial parent groups. However, these selfsame groups will NOT admit that you have a right to VISITATION of those children you have been paying for--even though Visitation Rights are just as much the law as Child Support payments.

    Nevertheless brothers, you are still ‘bummed out’ about not being able to spend time with your children, and you are wondering what to do to get over this dark cloud on your holiday horizon.

    Let this column be your guide. Because there ARE things that you can do to be with your children, regardless of what the courts, your ex, and the chorus of naysayers may spout during the holiday season.

    A WISE WOMAN SPEAKS:

    Regina Nicholson works as a volunteer in the courts in Atlanta, Georgia. She recently dropped a long letter into my mailbag and some of the contents were worth sharing:

    “Not all women are vicious, but I'm beginning to think at least 80% of them are spiteful and I'm a woman! Women need to realize, "Okay, the relationship ended. I might not like him anymore but the children have nothing to do with our relationship." Some women think they had a "Virgin" birth without help from the father!

    I think having a close relationship with my Dad and Granddad helped me to understand people are people, regardless of gender. I think of all the times my Dad had tea parties with me. He attended my pageants and my "girlie" activities. He was my first softball coach. He helped me grow into a self-reliant woman and was my football buddy along with my Granddad. My Granddad was my heart. His words of wisdom and support were insurmountable. He also supported my activities. That's why I am a strong advocate for Dads being a part of their child's life.

    Why are feminists so eager to come to the aid of bad mothers who maim and kill their children but fail to rally around a good father? Children need contact with both of their parents. It is so important for their well being!

    People's rights are being taken away from them, slowly but surely. It reminds me of the poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller:

    They came for the communists, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a communist;

    They came for the socialists, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a socialist;

    They came for the union leaders, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a union leader;

    They came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

    Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up for me.

    I just don't want to be guilty of not assisting those who rights have been disregarded. My paternal grandmother always told me to remember where your rights end, another's begin.”

    THEY WILL SEEK YOU OUT:

    For the remainder of this column, I’m going to supply a few tips to get through the holidays and into the New Year for non-custodial parents by means of action and inspiration. Please don’t think that due to a failure you are a failure. Everyone has come up short from time to time.

    Stop beating up on yourself and dance with life, instead of being towed around by strife and bitterness. You can’t control what you ‘ex’ is doing. You can’t control what the courts are saying. You can’t control how your kids are reacting.

    But you can control you.

    The first suggestion, right off the bat, is to realize that you CAN build a legacy that your children will be proud of and share with their children, years--perhaps decades down the road.

    My Pastor, the Rev. Dr. Fitzhugh L. Lyons, Sr. has been a preacher for more than 50 years. He has seen the effects of one parent keeping the children away from the other parent. “Water seeks its own level,” he likes to say, “and no matter how much the other parent may disrespect you, and try to poison your children against you, they WILL seek you out, to hear your side. Be ready with an answer when they come to see you.”

    BUILDING A SPIRITUAL LEGACY:

    The first legacy any non-custodial parent should seek to build for their children is a spiritual one. This simply means, if you are a Christian and attend church, you should start, continue, and consistently pray for EACH one of your children.

    “Court orders” didn’t stop Job from praying for his kids, and he had ten of them the first time around. Prayer not only gets your heart ready for the good news of life, it provides that something ‘extra’ to get you through the hard times.

    Build a legacy ‘kit’, full of letters, good books, and items that will show your children what kind of man you are, and how you have changed for the better, regardless of what the ‘naysayers’ would like to state. Most of all include a small Bible for each child, with an inscription concerning YOUR faith that God will lead them as he has led you.

    BUILDING A HUMOR LEGACY:

    What legacy kit would be complete without taking time to laugh? I’ve also packed away a few of my ‘funnies’ for my children. Yes, I have kept them ‘clean’, which is a MAJOR prerequisite for developing character and quality in my children, and their children.

    Brothers, take the time to pass on funny stories. Quotes. Family happenings. Some of the things that YOU got in trouble for, when YOU were growing up. Or, your parents in their growing-up years. I will guarantee you that with each laugh, your child will be draw closer to the ‘real you’. Closer than your ‘ex’ will ever be able to drive them away.

    BUILDING INSPIRATION, DREAMS, AND ECOURAGEMENT:

    Possibly the most important portion of your legacy arsenal are a few items that give your children the opportunity to be themselves, and shoot for their own goals. They must discover how to use their own talents, skills, and abilities to make their way along in life. They are originals--not carbon copies.

    Brothers, if YOU weren’t a ‘sports star’ when you were growing up, why put such an unrealistic expectation on your kids? There is a need for doctors, teachers, and even poets. Give your children the freedom to dream and inspire them to reach for the stars--even if the sky is overcast and dark. Give them some words and heroes that will warm them when the fires of life have gone out.

    Yes, maybe your marriage ended before its time. That doesn’t mean that your children can’t have strong marriages and their own identity. Just make sure that you take the time to let them know, within your legacy kit, how much you love them…and how proud you are of them.

    No court on earth can stop you from leaving that love for your children.

    Mike Ramey is the author of THE MANHOOD LINE, a syndicated, monthly column written for men from a biblical, business, and common sense perspective. Emails welcome to [email protected]. ©2003 Mike Ramey/Barnstorm Communications (1).
     
  2. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    Mike Ramey ... now you know I don't mean to be difficult, but doesn't "legacy" imply after death or something similar to that?

    You started this article out talking about the holidays, these current holidays soon upon us ... right?

    Well, while a legacy may do much for a child after their parent has passed on, it won't do much for the child or the parent during this 2002 holiday season. If in fact legacy does relate to after someone has passed on, the Father won't be here to enjoy any of the smiles that are passed on from this legacy.

    Therefore, I propose a few additions to this article. :)

    Yes, I would imagine that the holiday season is tough on a non-custodial parent, especially if the custodial parent is difficult to deal with. But trust me on this fellas (and ladies if you find yourself in this position) ... children don't require a whole bunch. All they really want to know is that they are loved. So rather than packing these "legacy items" in a box, to be bequeathed to them upon your death ... put a pretty bow on these things right now and take them to your baby. Watch as they smile, quickly tearing the wrapper off the box to see what their Daddy brought to them. Yes, fill it with the things Mike has mentioned above ... but give them while there is still breath in your body, while you can see the joy on your child's face and feel the hug they'll give you after it's all said and done.

    No mean mother or court system can deny a father the love of his children. A simple phone call, a card that you saw in the store that made you smile and think of them. An unexpected trip to McDonald's or the park. Eating lunch with them at school, or spending a Sunday afternoon, just the two of you. Constant reassurance that you are with them and that you love them ... in spite of financial difficulties or hard times. Children don't care about money ... they care about you. They just want you. They want to know that you're willing to weather the storm of an angry mother, a steep mountain, or anything else, just to speak to them. Talk about a legacy! This child will never let anyone keep them from their child, because they will know that nothing kept my Daddy from me! This is what they'll remember ... even though my Mommy & Daddy are angry with each other ... my Daddy still calls me every Saturday (of course you can pick whatever day is convenient for you).

    Let your baby know that you don't have any extra money, if you don't have it. If you do have it, sneak them their own $50 or $100 bill! Tell them to buy what they want, or better yet, take them shopping for it ... make it a day!

    It isn't about the big stuff ... it's the very small stuff that children want and need. Just a few minutes of your time to let them know, personally, that you are there for them ... love them ... and would give them the world if it were yours.

    Doing this regularly, builds that legacy while at the same time, you get to enjoy it with them.

    In regard to a Father not receiving visitation, if it is court-ordered and he is living up to his end of that bargain ... take her to court! No court would deny you visitation, as a matter of fact, she'll probably be held in contempt! If it isn't court ordered visitation, get the judge to order it. It's all about no mountain being too steep, that you'd not climb it for your children ... now that's a legacy!

    :heart:

    Destee
     
  3. Mike Ramey

    Mike Ramey Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    If Everything Were Fair...

    Now Destee, the purpose of the column is dealing with a segment of men who have been 'blocked' by the courts, their 'ex's' and even the distance of a few states or a few countries from seeing their kids.

    If money were the only issue, then there would be no 'mass media displays' of rounding up folks (that's men and women) who are/have been/could be behind in their child support and tossing them into jail or prison.

    No, this column goes to something deeper and it comes to my mailbag on a regular basis...How CAN I see my kids when my 'ex' is using the courts to block me at every turn? That's the message I get.

    A Legacy to me is thinking for the long term. Empires are built over the long term; Dynasties are built over the long term. Legacy is thinking of your children over the long term.

    You and I may not agree, but that's life and that's freedom. But that stuff about giving extra money, etc. is pretty hard for folks (and some of them are women) who are working double shifts and overtime to pay legal bills, court costs, and child support arrearrages...and in some cases their 'ex's' legal bills when their 'ex' has the resources to pay their own. The mentality of the courts is that either side can pay...and it's not neccesarily the right side!

    Anyway, there ARE noncustodial parents who are going to have the blues during the upcoming holidays...for one reason or another. The holidays don't revolve around money, nor should they! In fact, some 'exes' would be the first to run back INTO court in the new year if noncustodials 'dug down' and 'gave up' some 'extra' money. The judges would ask, then mandate 'well, if you can give this much extra...you can continue to give this much extra...COURT ADJOURNED!"

    Just a closing thought...children are GREAT! But they are the future of the family...not the bedrock. The BEDROCK are Mother and Father. How THEY get along will determine how ALL get along. And, if SOME marriages fail, it is STILL up to Mother and Father to leave their 'voice' to their children.

    This is a great way of doing that without the 'dollar signs' that many would like to 'insert' into whether or not one is a good parent based upon the size of their wallet. Leaving something like a 'Legacy Kit' or packages doesn't mean one has to wait all their lives to get it to their kids. Prayer can be unwrapped at any time.

    Mike Ramey
     
  4. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    Re: If Everything Were Fair...

    What do you mean by "blocked" by the courts? The court, after reviewing the evidence decided that it would be in the best interest of the children for the Father not to be present in their lives? Regarding ex's, they certainly can make life difficult for each other, such is life. I think encouraging our young people to choose wisely their partners, teaching them (showing them) how to weather storms together, will aid in the future regarding this. Unfortunately, if we are already in a "bad ex situation" we've got to weather that storm, whether we like it or not ... such is life. It usually isn't peaches & cream for either side of a failed relationship. If the Father is miles away from their children, again, he'll have to be resourceful, coming up with ways to "communicate" with their child. They certainly aren't the first to be separated for this reason and won't be the last. The items you listed for the legacy box would be well-received via mail.
    I don't understand the above Mike. Are you suggesting that it's not about the delinquent child support payments and men/women are actually being prosecuted for other reasons? The non payment of child support is just a smoke-screen?
    Again, how are ex's using the court against them, can you provide some examples? If a man is paying his child support it seems the court would hold her in contempt if he's not allowed visitation. As a matter of fact, even if he's not paying child support, it does not give her right to take his visitation from him. I would imagine that someone who isn't living up to their end of the court ordered agreement, would not feel real comfortable going before a judge saying someone else isn't doing what they're suppose to do. The best thing here is to do what the court requires so that when she gets beside herself a man will have a legal leg to stand on.
    Okay, thanks for the definition. I agree.
    It is so okay that we don't agree! Gosh, I think it would be rather boring if everyone lived and thought the same as the next. I welcome the diversity as it provides me opportunities to learn and consider perspectives I may never have before.

    The stuff about giving extra money, I did say if one has it. I also said, if you don't, tell your child that. I listed lots of things that cost no money. It's not about how much money the child gets from their non-custodial parent, it's how much love, i.e., time and attention.

    In regard to who pays attorney fees ... hmmmm ... is that not negotiable (isn't that what attorney's are for)? If not, again, no one said that life would be a flowery bed of ease. Things are hard, tough, not fair, but we still must live and take care of the children, somehow shielding them from all of the animosity that develops when a relationship fails.
    There are going to be custodial parents having the blues during the upcoming holidays. People in general will have the blues during these holidays ... for one reason or another. If the threat of a court, or anything, keeps a parent from doing what they can for their child, they are in much worse condition than they realize, in my opinion they have reason to have the blues. If they are doing all they can to meet their obligation to emotionally, physically, spiritually and yes, financially, care for the child they brought into the world, joy should be theirs, everyday.
    I do agree that it is important for the parents to get along, for the emotional, spiritual and physical well being of the child. No one said this would be easy, but it's the cup of many and they must drink it. They must challenge themselves to make the best of a bad situation, for their child's sake. It is not easy. I've been there and done it. But even if one parent is being more difficult than the other, one has to remain wise and aware of the needs of the child ... denying themselves the luxury of lashing out, becoming angry and making a bad situation worse. Unfortunately many relationships don't have a person like this in it and everyone is thinking of their own individual pain and can't see past it to look at how the children are faring, which is usually poorly.
    I mentioned money only once and included "if one has it." Money seems to be the root of many men's pain when it comes to their ex's and children. I can certainly understand this, but it's life. Suck it up. It is the consequence of men who have children and don't remain with the woman that they had them with. It is also the consequence of the woman to be there 24/7, often denying herself pleasures because she now has children to raise alone. Both parents pay dearly, therefore, if you don't already have children protect yourself. If you do, love your babies and do all you can for them, including prayer, because they didn't ask to be here ... that was your choice ... or at least one willingly relinquished when you chose to engage in an act that could produce a child.

    With so many young people having sex I think it would be good for us to make them aware of the very costly, long term, possibly life changing acts they are engaging in, before the child is conceived. For those of us who already have babies, it's too late, because we will be paying for a lifetime.

    :heart:

    Destee
     
  5. Mike Ramey

    Mike Ramey Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Now, If you want to write on this issue Destee...

    I would think that it would be wise that you should write a piece on this issue from the custodial parent point of view, and post it here. That way, readers of the forum would clearly see both sides because it is an issue that is in the eye of the beholder.

    As one who works in the court system, and one who has also been blessed to cover the court system, not to mention continuing to receive correspondence from those on both sides of the issue who are still entangled with the court system, I can candidly say your view of the courts is simplistic at best concerning this issue. The reality of the system is parental visitation is dictated by three things: state law, divorce decree, and whomever has the money for the best lawyer to get in front of the judge and argue their case.

    If a non-custodial parent, be they male or female, is already on the hook for child support, and court expenses, and under a restraining order (which are given out quite freely, depending upon jurisdiction), along with trying to hold a job and pay expenses to avoid being homeless, then hopefully you can see what 'suck it up and be a man' says to them. It says, YOU don't have a right to live...just give everything to your kids AND GO AHEAD AND DIE!

    Now, my writings are here based upon your courtesy at extending the opportunity for them to be here. I deeply appreciate any opportunity given. But I also understand that business is business. You can also withdraw that courtesy and turn off this forum, for it is getting increasingly obvious that you must need the space to dedicate to something more 'profitable' for your venture. Hey, I understand...you have bills to pay, and costs to meet. If it is more profitable to turn this section of the forum off, and you can draw other folk to a new forum of your liking, well that's life. I was successful before I came here, and I'll be successful IF I am asked to leave.

    If that is your desire, then I have no bitterness towards you, which I cannot say you are not extending towards me. Whatever happened in your life did not happen in mine.

    But, do you ask that your other contributors 'rewrite' items that they post after they post them? Your poets, your flow writers, and your short story creators? I realize that the forum rules have clear definitions and clear standards. I did not 'breach' those rules, based upon my reading of them. I freely posted, just like everyone else here. When Kem made the comment on one other place on the forum about you 'removing' things that you disagree with, I thought that he was kidding.

    Evidently, he wasn't.

    But it seems that I must have touched a nerve, and good writing is supposed to do that...make us think, and reflect. Whether or not we agree with it, or it touches a situation in our personal lives does not make good writing any less. There is freedom to disagree, not freedom to 'dis' the writer, nor the website provider, nor those who are involved in coming here to 'help out' by providing their services for free, for the joy of seeing a brother--or sister--having a dream unfold and grow.

    That's why I came here, to help your dream grow, based upon your invitation...which seems that you are anxious to take back.

    Evidently, I don't fit the 'unwritten criteria' which exists. And, if that be the case, you can exercise your 'editorial perrogative' and hit the delete button.

    The last several postings have caused you great concern, so you may as well delete them too, and close this down...because this is what I'm getting from your last few posts. Evidently, you can make more money from someone who best fits the needs of your site. As a business owner, you have to make those calls.

    I understand...cause I'm a businessman myself. I've got standards and schedules to meet.

    No bitterness, and no regrets, because business is business.

    Just 'suck it up', and pull the switch because you evidently need the space for alternative, and more pleasing viewpoints.

    Mike Ramey
     
  6. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    Oh Mike Ramey! I have obviously offended you and nothing could have been further from my intentions! Please, accept my apology. I meant no harm in challenging what you've shared. I invited you to join us after reading one of your articles, impressed with your writing skill and the position you took in lifting up, defending, and encouraging black men. I appreciate you accepting my invitation and all that you've shared with us in every forum. I want you with us as much now as I did then.

    This is a "discussion forum" and most things included on the forum are open to discussion, pro and con. A Member may not agree with what is shared, but as long as they question, challenge, discuss respectfully, as I thought I was doing, things are usually okay.

    I would never delete your articles, unless of course you asked me to. Yes, Kemetstry was kidding when he said that. Right off the top I can't think of any threads/posts that I've deleted (oh yeah, Kry's kill the white man, or something like that), but short of that, if no mistake, I've never deleted anyone's work from here. I'm sure Kemetstry will correct me if I'm wrong.

    We occasionally have very heated discussions on this forum, though not nearly as often as I'd like. There are many of us with passionately different points of view, add to that the right topic, time to respond, and it's on! You and I have shared in other discussions but I guess we agreed for the most part, so there was no problem.

    Mike Ramey, for the little while I've known you, it has been nothing but a pleasure. I'm really surprised at your response to my posts, as they were solely for the sake of discussion with no offense intended. Unfortunately, what just happened could easily happen again. I won't be disagreeing with you in the future (at least I'll try real hard) but another Member may, and they are entitled to that. I don't know if you are willing to remain in a community where your thoughts may be challenged, but you are most certainly welcome.

    :heart:

    Destee
     
  7. Regina

    Regina Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Destee,

    When a woman is in contempt of court ordered visitation, the courts and the police are reluctant to enforce it. Illinois has a statute that states if a custodial parent interferes with visitation, the parent can be charged with a misdemeanor. It is rarely enforced unless the father continues to fight for his rights. Women can lie through their teeth in court, cry a little and boom! They have sole custody!

    Not all fathers choose to be apart from their children. Women also play a role in divorce and the shattering of marriages. There are a lot of cases where the wife has an affair or just decides she doesn't want to be married anymore. Gender bias against men is so prevalent in the courts, even a "crackhead" mother will be awarded the children before a good father. Most fathers fight for years and years to get access to their children.

    Not all women are good and not all men are bad. Each child custody and child support case must be evaluated individually. In considering the child's best interest, the mother may not be the best choice for the custodial parent. Personally, I feel shared parenting is the best solution when both the mother and the father are suitable parents.

    Peace,

    Regina
     
  8. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    Hello Regina,

    Welcome and thank you for joining us.

    I agree that the court system in general, favors the mother as custodial parent. It's been this way a long time, probably due to the fact that the mother is the one who carries the child for 9 months, labors with it and gives birth. She is also, historically, the one who provides the day to day care for the child. I think it is a natural assumption that she'd be better at it, but of course that is not always true. Certainly there are men willing and capable of doing the same, perhaps even better than some females.

    I am not intimately familiar with domestic laws. If they are unjust then it is the judicial system at fault and not the custodial parent. If one has the wherewithal to fight and change these laws then they should do that, but until then, they are subject to and must abide by them. The law requires that a child be financially supported. In times past, the government often picked up the tab for this, but those days are long gone. Men/Women are now required to pay for the children they bring into the world.

    I'm sure that having to fight for one's parental rights can be a long and arduous journey filled with disappointment, stress, high cost and exhaustion. The word "fight" implies that it will not be smooth and easy, but it is a fight worth fighting if ever there was one.

    I agree too that failed relationships often leave very bitter parents, some willing to do most anything to hurt the other, even if it hurts their children. I also agree that some women are the cause of their divorce. They lie, cheat, sabotage relationships, violate trusts, etc., but so do some men.

    My concern (and what prompted me to respond) is that the articles I've recently commented on seem to be coming down hard on the female, never mentioning the remote possibility that the male may have contributed to the troubled parenting or demise of the relationship in any way. It takes two. If a situation is going to be presented both sides must be given, if it is to be done fairly.

    I think it's a little late to begin thinking about how terrible she is, after the child is born and you're standing before a judge. I say the same to young women. It's too late to begin thinking how terrible a man is after you've allowed him to impregnate you. At this point you are forever tied to each other. Both must "suck it up" and live with the consequences of their own decisions and care for the child they've produced. No amount of sympathy, whining, crying or blaming her, him, or the court is going to get them out of this responsibility, regardless of how difficult it may be.

    With this in mind, we should encourage our young people to weigh heavily who they become involved with and consider the long term consequences of engaging in acts that produce children. Once the child is born it's too late, because they've got to pay, it's the law.

    Again, thanks for joining us!

    :heart:

    Destee
     
  9. Mike Ramey

    Mike Ramey Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Destee...So It's OK For Women To Come Down On Men?

    Well, I see the lights are still on here, so I guess that this section is still up and running.

    Destee...If you look carefully at other posts in other forums on this site, men are regular targets of women. What they have done, what they haven't done, and what they did and did not do.

    It takes TWO to make a baby. How do TWO create life, and only ONE has a right to say anything, or make demands? How can one be 'all right' and the other be 'all wrong', yet the TWO of them laid down to create that ONE life.

    If there is going to be fairness, then NEITHER side can be 'firing shots'. And, whatever was done to you, like I said, was not done to me.

    Remember, a growing number of non-custodial parents are WOMEN who 'made the choice' to walk away from their men and their kids. And the courts have treated FEMALE non-custodial parents JUST AS BADLY as they have treated MALE non-custodial parents. It is JUST as wrong for a court to demand that a FEMALE non-custodial parent can't be involved in the lives of their children as is it for the same court to say that a MALE non-custodial parent can't be involved in the lives of their children.

    That's right, I said 'can't be', because many custodial parents USE the courts as their 'whipping stick', the same way many schools now use their OWN police forces to either 'keep' kids in line, or haul them off to juvie or jail because of 'perceived' wrongdoing.

    I'm not saying ALL, I am saying MANY in a shrinking universe.

    That's why the column.

    Destee, non-custodial parents LOVE their kids MORE than court-mandated support payments. THAT message never seems to make it out to the mainstream community.

    Also, if I may, I know brothers who are custodial parents who are DOING THE JOB of raising their kids ALONE cause the mother or wife TOOK OFF to FIND herself. THEY live with the reality that should these sisters come back, the courts will DISREGARD the hard work these brothers have done, give the kids back to the mother, and DEMAND that the father pay child support. I also know of WOMEN who are going through the same struggle, as the brothers can come back, with a high priced lawyer, and take the kids...wiping out HER hard work.

    Dr. Mary Tandy, Publisher of the Indiana Herald, who gave me my writing start when no one else would made it plain a few years back: "When a woman disrespects a man, she is also disrespecting another woman...that man's MOTHER. And, SHE is just as much a woman as the woman throwing the shots!"

    Mike Ramey:love:
     
  10. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    Hey Mike, glad to see you're willing to stay, if it gets to be more than you can handle, just let me know.

    You've mentioned a couple of times "whatever was done to me, was not done to you." What was done to me? I'm kinda lost on those comments.

    The main point I've tried to make in all that I've said is that once the child is born, it's too late to be crying foul. Makes no difference what follows the birth of the child ... it could be ...

    judges
    courts
    laws
    bitter ex's
    life long child support
    shattered dreams
    broken hearts
    loss of personal freedom
    economic hardship
    raising children alone
    fighting to see your children
    sick children
    big hospital bills
    insurance
    kid on drugs
    kid in jail
    kid pregnant
    college tuition
    the list goes on and on ...

    All of these things are a direct result of putting a penis in a vagina ... or allowing a penis in a vagina ... and making a baby.

    Males and females have complete control prior to that one sexual act and should not partake in it, if they don't want to find themselves possibly experiencing any of the above.

    If you have sex and produce a child ... you're subject to WHATEVER comes. Period. The choice is/was yours.

    In regard to men being targets on this site, you'll have to show me those threads. I'd be surprised if you can present any where men are downed and there's not at least one post in it, lifting them back up. Yeah ... just show me.

    :heart:

    Destee
     
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