Pan Africanism : Egyptian Artifacts and British Museums

Discussion in 'Black History - Culture - Panafricanism' started by NNQueen, Dec 8, 2003.

  1. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I am truly seeking a better understanding of something. Last weekend I was watching the Discovery Channel which was airing programs about Egypt. The stories were about Egyptian mummies that have been uncovered along with other types of things that were buried in the Pyramids. Many of the museums that hold these precious and priceless artifacts are located in Europe as a result of archeologists from those countries and their research going to Egypt to reveal its secrets to them. As I listened to the stories I felt that these other countries were violating something sacred and, although the information was quite interesting, they had no right to do that.

    How is it possible that these 'foreign' countries can gain access and control over Egypt's property? Does Egypt sell them the rights to it or what? How does this work?
     
  2. Ozzy

    Ozzy Active Member MEMBER

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    >Hello NNQueen.

    Most of the artifacts held by foreign countries were taken during a period when Egyptology was a solely European interest. Many of what was taken is small compared to that which was pilfered by the locals over hundreds of years, hence the reason most tombs are empty when found. King Tuts tomb was significant in that its treasures were intact not for its grandeur or its greater importance in Egyptian history compared to others. The argument by those who hold such treasures is that at this time there were no facilities nor local organizations capable of protecting nor storing these often delicate finds. Almost all was taken by the countries financing the excavations. Today no items are allowed out of Egypt, and if they are they remain the property of Egypt. There have been a few cases in recent history where items have been removed from Egypt without consent, the bust of Nefertiti being one, which is now in Germany.

    Today there have been calls for the return of all removed artifacts to Egypt, which in a number of cases this in fact has happened. Mummies have been returned only in the last few months to the Egyptian authorities. The Argument now is, and it is expressed from both within the Egyptian Egyptology society as well as the countries holding then, that if it is all returned how could the average person appreciate the greatness of Egypt if they could not, like most of us, afford to go see it in Egypt. Regardless of the reasons, to which I feel there would be more than the fare share using this as and excuse to keep them, it does in some ways make a good point. I feel Egypt should be there for all, and I heard one compromise suggested that made perfect sense. This was, all artifacts should be the property of Egypt and its people, the items in countries other than Egypt could display and keep on "loan" only the artifacts. This would unfortunately give Egypt the power to remove anything they saw fit.

    It should be pointed out that much of the science that is used and money given to support the salvation of many artifacts held in Egypt itself have been provided by other countries. The Cairo Museum has many problems still in the maintenance of artifacts, a percentage have perished because of insufficient facilities. This is also another reason Cairo expects financial support from countries involved in excavations.

    The bottom line is, it would be nice to see all returned to Egypt, however it would become out of the average persons reach to ever have contact with such wonderful artifacts, and Egypt by no means has the capability at present to preserve them all.

    Unfortunately Dr Hawass the head of Egyptology in Egypt is not a very popular man, and the trust to hand over everything is just not there, so i would not consider it possible for it to happen at present.
     
  3. Sun Ship

    Sun Ship Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Who ancestors are they?!!!!

    Peace Sister NNQueen :bowdown:,

    I think, the even deeper question is, who in Egypt has the right to claim providence over these sacred artifacts. Egypt is no longer a truly Kemetic (original Egyptians) country; its like giving Euro-Americans possession of Native American artifacts.

    ONE MAN’S ARTIFACT IS ANOTHER MAN’S HOLY AND SACRED RELIC.

    The Arab conquerors of Egypt have no more right or respect for the Ancient Egyptian legacy than the Europeans. Many of the original looters of these tombs were Arab bandits. Dr. John Hendrik Clarke* was always diligent, along with Dr. Chancellor Williams* and Drusilla Houston*, about exposing the Arab's counteractive role, as related to the history of Africa and Africans.

    Let it be also known, that history proves, that many West African tribes migrated from the Nile valley and beyond, not excluding the Nubian/Sudanese of the Upper Nile.

    *- As you know, the life work of these historians are extraordinary!.

    Peace,

    Brother Sun Ship,

    P.S. – Dr. Hawass is an Arabian Uncle Tom and an Egyptian handkerchief head!!
     
  4. Sun Ship

    Sun Ship Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Ozzy, If you only knew who Black people were.

    Ozzy___ Ozzy____ Ozzy

    First of all it’s interesting you mentioned Diop, I guess you are aware of how Diop requested to perform scientific examinations of some particular pharaonic remains to ascertain microbiological material in order to measure the concentration of melanin in the epidermis, to prove that the dynastic kings were Black Africans.

    Europeans and Egyptian curators turned him down.

    You have to research this on your own, but this racist episode is very well known in the world of African Studies.

    This is why so many African scholars are suspicious of the Arab conquerors that have dominated African history and politics.

    Ozzy, I find it interesting that you can dialogue with descendants, of the oldest people in the history of the earth and talk about how they should give up their genetic memories to a “Johnny come lately”.

    Your arrogance has overruled your intellect. You as a Spaniard, who country was ruled for over 700 years by Moorish Kings (711-1492), have the audacity to talk about, “who has rights”. The African-Asiatic Moorish People literally brought the Europeans out of the dark ages and into the renaissance. But regardless of their long and impressive rule this did not prevent the Spaniards from kicking them out of Europe and reclaiming the land and the cultures of the past and that which was left behind. The fact that these so-called “non-white” people could rule over Europeans for so long, has almost removed them from the pages of public history.

    And you seem unaware of the western migrations of now West African tribes, some like the Yoruba, not reaching their present homeland until 800AD, then forming the Oyo empire (not to say there were not existing Black Africans in West Africa before then). You need to brush up on your African history. Matter of fact a lot of the work that Dr. Diop and Dr. Ben was doing dealt with the linguistic links in West Africans and Nilotic cultures.

    When the more honest researchers and Egyptologist look for the primitive roots of Pharaonic Egypt, they find extraordinary and striking similarities, in abundance, in the Sub-Saharan cultures. In the end concluding that the Ancient Egyptians descended from Black Africans and not Mesopotamians.
     
  5. goraddy

    goraddy Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Interesting discussion!

    One only needs to visit Kemet to see the obvious - it was a BLACK CIVILIVATION.

    Just look at this break down of the Medu Neter

    http://www.tehutionline.com/newpage9.htm

    KMT: The Black City

    by Akinjinde Bonotchi Montgomery

    Kmt (Kemet) translated as the "Black Land" is a European Egyptological white lie. Almost the entire discipline agrees that the blackness that is referred to in the word kmt Kemet is the soil and not the black people that lived on the soil. European scholars will perform complex illogical mental gymnastics not to translate kmt Kemet as the "Black Community," " Black Town," or "Black City." They do this to avoid any idea or notion that the blackness that is referred to relates to the people who inhabit the land and not the soil. This confusion only exists because of racist scholars who attempt to cloud the facts of the text. The Medew Netcher is crystal clear if read correctly.

    Perhaps Raymond O. Faulkner best illustrates this type of mental gymnastics in his book, A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. In which he translates, kmt "the Black Land," "Egypt". (p.286) The next word in his dictionary is kmt. These two symbols followed by a man and a woman with plural strokes forms a collective and must be translated as "the Black People" or "the Blacks." Faulkner translates kmt as "Egyptians"? He couldn’t bring himself to write what is clearly before his eyes kemetu "the Black People." To translate this word kmt kemetu as Egyptians is nonsense. Egypt is a Greek word .

    James P. Allen in his grammar book An Introduction to the Language and culture of Hieroglyphs, in which he translate " kmt (noun) "Egypt" (literally "the Black" referring to the cultivated soil along the Nile.)" (p.470) These scholars can only translate kmt as "the Black" by ignoring this symbol , at the end of the word. This symbol is used as a determinative and it is provided to clarify and make more precise the meaning of the word. Was this omission of the determinative a major mistake by Mr. Allen? I don’t think so, later in his book he translates this symbol nwt as a determinative for town or settlement. (p.439) His translation should read kmt "the Black Town" or "the Black Settlement," this scholar couldn’t bring his mind to make the logical connection between , and its determinative , the symbol, according to him for town or settlement.

    James E. Hoch, in his unpublished book, Middle Egyptian Grammar translates, ", kmt (place name) "Egypt" (literally "the Black Land")"(p.291) He also disregards the determinative , and translates kemet in the standard manner "the Black Land." He also translate the symbol nwt as "city" on page 263 of the same book, ", nwt "city." Mr. Hoch’s translation should by logic be read "the Black City."

    Sir Alan Gardiner in his monumental book Egyptian Grammar gives the following translations, km "black" (adj.); kmt, "the Black Land," Egypt." (p.597)

    On pages 31-33, Sir Gardiner provides a list of generic determinative one of which is the symbol , and he says it is used to denote a "town" or "village." He and the other refuses to translate this determinative at all when it is associated with kmt. To translate kmt, Kemet as the "the Black Land" is inconsistent with the logic that is established by the grammar rules of the Medew Netcher language.

    The break down of the word kmt is as follows: the first symbol (coal) is a biliteral symbol that has two letters to its transliteration, the two letters it represents are km. The next symbol(owl) is a uniliteral and only have one letter to its transliteration m and in this word it is used as a phonetic complement. Which is used to reinforce the sound value of the m. The third symbol (bread) is also a uniliteral and represents the letter t. This gives the transliteration kmt. The fourth symbol (village with crossroads) nwt is used as a determinative to clarify the word in use. Therefore in the word this symbol is used to denote a city, village, or community the correct translation is "the Black City" or "the Black Community."

    The people of the Nile Valley called their country Black for the same reason and in the same sense that Detroit is called a Black city and Africa is called a Black continent, the majority population of all three are Black peoples.

    Some common words in Mdw Ntr that are associated with land have the symbol for land tA, ta as part of their composition.

    , ta "land" "earth" "ground"

    , tawy "the two lands"

    nb-tawy "Lord of the Two Lands"

    , Ta-merry "the Beloved Land" another name the people used for Kemet. The name most used now by Doc Ben for the land.

    Why are European scholars translating , Kemet as the Black Land when there is not a single symbol in the word you can associate with land or soil? The fact that ancient Kemet was a African (Black) country is something we should not expect European scholars to accept, but we can point out how the racist, yurugu mind will response with mental nonsense when faced with facts which destroys its perverted worldview. Like the simple fact that ancient Kemet "the Black Community" was a nation of Kemetu "Black People."

    A European Egyptologist once said, "you know we can’t let those Blacks into the field of Egyptology because they will destroy the discipline."
     
  6. goraddy

    goraddy Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    All artifacts should be returned ASAP...

    As well, mummies should not be on display in Kemet no longer.
     
  7. Ozzy

    Ozzy Active Member MEMBER

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    QUOTE“Ozzy, I find it interesting that you can dialogue with descendants, of the oldest people in the history of the earth and talk about how they should give up their genetic memories to a “Johnny come lately”.

    Who do you think I am, you have checked my location and assumed I am Spanish. Considered me white! And so insulted me. I was not born in Spain, I am not Spanish; I simply live here in Madrid. I have more connection to Africa than you will ever have. Your are of African decent, I am of Africa!

    “I find it interesting”[/[/ that you have the arrogance to force your views on people you know nothing about and feel justified in insulting.

    I have made no effort to insult, just to question, understand and inform. You however have
    unfortunately shown that, what many Africans fear of Americans. A lack of understanding and an unwillingness to try to listen an understand. There are many and varied Blacks of the world, all with their own identity and culture, we work together and endeavor to understand our differences, it saddens me you are often excluded.

    It also saddens me there is so much misinformation and quoting of outdated information. First let us consider the AFRICAN Berbers.

    First you said “Berbers ARE more properly define by linguistics than genetics” ARE! Being in the present tense, and defined by linguistics not genetics.

    Then you say when I have responded that this is incorrect, “The ethnic Berber WAS originally group by linguistics, not excluding their RECENTLY FOUND Genetic commonalities”. Now it is WAS, (past tense) defined by linguistics, but not excluding recently found genetic relationships.

    I think it is not me who needs to read your posts again it is you. I have said nothing more than the Berber tribes are an ethnically defined African group, who share genetic links. Your first statement is still incorrect, and contradicts your second.

    You go on to say “When Berbers were categorized as a group, there were NO GENETIC SCIENCES that could analyze DNA”. Very true, but the history of the word Berber although debated, dates well back before the science of linguistics was ever born, and not a result of classification created by linguists as you suggest, again incorrect.

    QUOTE“Secondly, you need to brush up on your anthropology. ALONG WITH DRAVIDIANS, so-called Negroids and Negritos, including Negroid-Dravidian racial mixtures also dominated sub-continental India. This fact is found archaeologically, historically and genetically. I’ve seen many East Indians with strong African features and I’m not just talking about skin color. Still, It is not surprising that the, more so-called Caucasian/Indo-Europeans types, are mostly represented internationally, because the caste system has always rewarded wealth and position to the lighter Brahmin caste, and then downward the color spectrum (though, as far as color, this was never an exact pseudo-science, as compare to North America’s Jim Crow system) Matter of fact, I find it interesting that several years ago I read a book and found several web pages where the Tamil (East Indian ethnic group) were exploring their sense of African-ness, basically redefining their history to reunite the sub-Saharan African and sub-continental Indian world”

    Again I will ask, were this fact shown, archaeologically, historically, or genetically. Archaeologically there is no relationship with Dravidian technology with contemporary Africa, there is no historical text, religion, tradition, that connects it historically and genetically there is no closer relationship than the pre mentioned. For some one who has such strong feelings about a stolen heritage you seem quite willing to take another peoples self Identity and call them something else. The only relationship ever made were cranial classifications you have mentioned before which classify (racially) different peoples around the world into one group because of similar physical features. This classification was questioned by Diop and Obenga in their presentation to UNESCO at the Cairo conference in 1974 as being inconsistent and flawed. This is old outdated data and is again no lonnger used in any scientific disiplin.

    QUOTE“I always find it interesting how all of this science is used to explain how the east African is so much different than the West African. But the white man will tell you how the Swede is closely related to the Australian Aborigine, who he still treats like a sub-human”

    Who exactly in science is trying to explain how different East Africans is so much different from West Africans? And who in the world ever suggested the Swiss are closely related to the Australian Aboriginal. This is absolute fabrication, there has never been a scientific paper published claiming this connection. If you are referring to my questioning of your statement “Let it be also known, that history proves, that many West African tribes migrated from the Nile valley and beyond, not excluding the Nubian/Sudanese of the Upper Nile”, this is simply not a correct statement.

    QUOTE“And that which makes a people related, can only be decided by the people themselves”.

    Ask a Berber from Morocco and a Berber from Algeria if they are related. They will tell you yes, they are. By your own definition

    Other inaccuracies are, cephalic indexes have nothing to do with hyper-dolichocephalism, pragmatism, nor steatopygia. Steatopygia for instance is represented by only two peoples on earth, and is not classified as a black or Negroid trait. Secondly the study of Anthropometrics goes way back to the 1800s and most then agreed that a useful measurement for racial classification would have to fulfill a number of requirements: ,” it would have to be resistant to environmental influences; it would have to be unaffected by cultural practices; and it should be possible to demonstrate heritability; “Head form (cephalic index) was thought to satisfy all these criteria. However measurements should always have a biological significance, as soon as they lose their significant they lose also their descriptive value”(Gould 1996; Marks 2002; Montagu 1997

    Again an outdated method and classification and again one created by not Europeans but Americans. One should look at home before criticizing ones nab ours garden.

    I could go on but I see no point. I have proved my point so I will close with the following and post no more.

    QUOTE: UNESCO, General History of Africa, Ancient Civilizations of Africa.
    "It is more than probable that the African strain, black or light, is preponderant in the Ancient Egyptian, but in the present state of our knowledge it is impossible to say more."

    QUOTE: Cheikh Anta Diop.
    "Ancient Egypt was a Negro civilisation. The history of Black Africa will remain suspended in the air and cannot be written correctly until African historians dare to connect it with the history of Egypt. The African historian who evades the problem of Egypt is neither modest nor objective nor unruffled. He is ignorant, cowardly and neurotic. The ancient Egyptians were Negroes. The moral fruit of their civilisation is to be counted among the assets of the Black world."

    Even with this in mind your statements are incorrect.

    Time to move on, Thank you to those genuinely interested in the many and varied Black people of the world. There are many of us out here. Travel to Africa too see for your self.

    Osman .
     
  8. Sun Ship

    Sun Ship Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    The Black World according to Ozzy, the "true" African (?)

    Quote, Ozzy

    “Who do you think I am, you have checked my location and assumed I am Spanish. Considered me white! And so insulted me. I was not born in Spain, I am not Spanish; I simply live here in Madrid. I have more connection to Africa than you will ever have. Your are of African decent, I am of Africa!”

    Unquote,

    Quote,

    “Your are of African decent, I am of Africa!”

    Unquote

    First of all, the white man has made you, a very defensive Negro, white man or Berber, or whatever you consider yourself. Any African who has to call himself an African "of Africa", to believe he is more of "an African" and then try to denounce African people, in any other part of the African Diaspora, to be even more "African", than those of so-called "African descent". May not be as much, as he thinks he is.

    Annoucement:

    AFRICANS BORN IN THE CONTINENT, DO NOT OWN A PATENT ON WHAT IT IS TO BE AFRICAN, AS IT APPLIES TO AFRICANS IN THE DIASPORA!!

    Secondly if you don’t think Diop used comparative cultural analyses to show the connection between West and eastern/Nilotic African people you need to read Civilization or Barbarism AGAIN! Also grammatical errors (look at your own post), sometimes misrepresenting ones intent may occur in this type of forum, but YOU UNDERSTOOD WHAT I WAS SAYING BY YOUR OWN COMMENTS and I don’t think Berbers are worried about their DNA and genetic markers as they continue to define their selves ON THEIR OWN TERMS!!

    Third, I found it interesting that when talking to a Yoruba relative of mine. He talks about how these different North African and “non-negroid” African ethnic groups turn their backs on Black West Africans, especially when they are outside the continent, until it’s time to play soccer and they need some excellent players for their team, it is then, they would say. “Remember we are all Africans”.

    Regardless of all the anthropometrics and biological investigations, many African scholars worldwide have been frustrated with the European scientific world as it applies to the science of Race and the primordial scientific paradigm of “what is an African”, to which they would simplify the question to the European, “ If an Ancient Egyptian or any of these other questionable ancient Black people were walking down the street, what would they be to you”.

    This “I am of Africa” remark you made is old and tired my brother. Matter of fact Ozzy, you’ve proved my point concerning the divisiveness that can be derived from the science of genetics and race, for just as the scientist have played this “Hamitic Negroid” compared to the “true” West African Negroid game, for decades. Your understanding of genetics and culture did not prevent you from playing the “African descent” as compared to the “I was born in Africa” game. How do you know you are more African than I am? Do you have possesion of my particular genealogy or DNA? Did the ancestors tell you this? If you are more African than I am (whatever that means?) what do you do now? :lol: Can you sell your African-ness? :lol: This African “purity-foolishness” implied in your snide remark comes close to “Negro Nazi-ism" or some new sort of "African eugenics".

    Brother I see the white man has done a job, on you.

    The African’s that have survived the Diaspora, are not discouraged or intimidated by this type of silliness. Our ancestors have imbued in us, a relentless fortitude to ward off insults and misguided arrogance. Those Africans who were enslaved and exported all over the world died, struggled and fought to make us prideful of our place in the Pan African world and the world at large.

    But look, you can attack me and/or all Africans in the America experience,

    BUT THE TRUE STRENGTH AND CHARACTER OF AN AFRICAN, IS NOT WERE HE WAS BORN, BUT WHO HE IS.

    And as far as you being a Spaniard or not. …..Who cares.

    If it walks like an African and talks like an….well ok.

    But if it walks like a duck and quack?...hm_mmm?


    Sun Ship
     
  9. Sun Ship

    Sun Ship Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    AN OPEN LETTER TO A BELOVED PEOPLE

    I have once again experienced in this on-line community how the white western world has bamboozled, hoodwinked and distorted the minds of African people worldwide.

    European science and education has taken away the African’s every sense of self-knowing, wisdom, spirituality, common sense and mother wit.

    My mother use to constantly drill into me, “that a man without common sense and mother wit, is a fool”. It was the African, who first told the world that, “knowledge without wisdom and understanding is useless”. And believe me, you don’t need a footnote from a scientific journal to understand this, piece of great instruction.

    AFRICANS, MUCH LIKE WISDOM, ARE IMMEASURABLE.

    Ask any scientist, “what is a brain without the mind and can you accurately measure the mind’s quantity, quality and content?” If we attempt to do this with DNA or even Anthropometrics, (trying to define our quality or relationship to each other) we will find ourselves in a tailspin, towards the misguided slippery slope of eugenics and the scientifically based racial politics of the past centuries. For I have always said, “it’s the whole and not the part that make Africans and/or Black people an UNITED PEOPLE”!

    What scientist has a firm grip on the determining factors of “where nature ends and nurture begins”?
    This is a still a hotly debated topic in the academic community.

    Better yet, where does the African end and the Black man begin? Or how far and long do a Black man have to be from continental Africa, before he stops being an African? Or what percentage of “Authentic” African DNA, will make him still in the family?

    It’s interesting to hear white people using DNA, to proclaim that the “Out of Africa” theory makes ALL HUMANS AFRICANS (including them) and then convince BLACK Africans to subject their selves to testing, to clarify their genetic place in the Black world. A DNA testing, on Black people that assure them who are the true Africans and who are not Africans, amongst them. ??????????????

    Its amazing how we trust anything that white people pour out of a test tube, as the absolute empirical word of God (liking to truth). And when the western scientific world revise or change a hypothesis or fact, do we ever scrutinize their original intentions and scorn them for, how many lives were affected by the pervious idea?

    Recently I was looking at an ABC Nightline program on DNA, as it applied to racial and ethnic identity. Of course they focused on a presumed African American Black male who sent a DNA sample (mouth swab) to a Genetics testing lab. His results came back 0% African. This man was an educator who had promoted Black and African history and pride his entire career. But after the test he could no longer view his self as a Black man of African descent.

    IN ALL MY WILDEST DREAMS, I NEVER THOUGHT THAT THE WHITE MAN COULD FOOL US INTO TAKING A TEST TO VALIDATE HOW BLACK OR AFRICAN WE ARE.

    I am not saying, DNA is a useless science, but let me try to say this again, “truth and facts are two different sides of a very important issue. That issue is, “what makes you, who you are?”

    Slightly digressing, another good example of what I am talking about is, I recently took notice to another news story about diet, lifestyle and health, whereas researchers had performed a variety of test that showed, that if properly approached, a low-cal diet could induce longevity among humans. Or lets review Dr. Dean Ornish findings, finally destroying a myth (originally called empirical scientific fact) that heart disease could not be reversed. These news stories should seem literally, “world changing”. But, in each circumstance the astute scientific community denounced these findings, even though they accepted the test and the results, because they believed the lifestyle changes needed in order to benefit from these wondrous discoveries, would be unacceptable to the populace at large.

    The point I’m trying to make is, the FACT that a DNA driven future of medicine and biology, may be undeniable, and observing and charting its intricate components may be a worthy practice, for geneticist.

    But the TRUTH is that DNA like everything else Europeans have their hands on, will be froth with politics, ethical issues, religio-socio implications, commercial exploitation and racial assumptions.

    Other words, “everything that shines ain't gold”.

    I wish I had my hands on an article, I once read dealing with the fact, there are very racist researchers who are in the academic closet, for they felt the “politically correct” scientific world, would not accept their views, in the popular arena of ideas. These men believed, that there is plenty of evidence that proves “race and genetics” matter when it applies to innate qualities of intellect (IQ) and the history of civilized people. They are waiting and salivating at the “scientific door” of humanity to spin genetic science.

    What do you think the “Bell Curve” was all about? ___H-mmm. Here we go with Euro-science again.

    Why do you think Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop found it important to research and write the book, “Civilization or Barbarism”, a book that has an extraordinary forward by John Hendrik Clarke. But I’m sure Dr. Clarke’s comments would not be interesting or important to brother Ozzy, because this world-renowned scholar is of the lowly caste called “people of African Descent”

    As far as, the credibility of the white scientific oligarchy and their ethical objectives, you need to research what happen to the German Nazi scientific community after World War II. And then ask yourself what is really behind the science of Europeans.

    Imperialist and racist can fit lab coats also.

    And for those of us who are rejoicing over DNA results, releasing wrongly accused Black Men from the penitentiary, (which I think has been one the most important gifts of this science, FOR US) This is still like, “surgically cutting off a man’s hands and then sewing them back on, then waiting for him to clap for you, for helping him”.

    So if Africans and Black people are relishing over the promise, that European science has for us, as we’re being ravished by every disease and pathogen known to man. Remember we are still waiting for the blessings of modern health care and scientific discovery of the past century.

    Ashe,

    Sun Ship

    P.S. – I Apologize sister NNQueen for digressing from your original topic. This is my most humble opinion and I apologize for any grammatical errors.
     
  10. Sun Ship

    Sun Ship Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    We must survive, by any means necessary!

    Sister NNQueen :bowdown:

    Once Again I apologize for digressing from your exact subject, in this very important thread. But, I just hope our ignorance doesn’t make us the mummies and ancient DNA specimens of the future, with a white forensic geneticist pondering over our remains, recording us as an extinct species and wondering, who we were, as a people.

    Ashe,

    Sun Ship
     
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