Pan Africanism : East Africans "genetically most diverse"

Discussion in 'Black History - Culture - Panafricanism' started by panafrica, Mar 31, 2005.

  1. panafrica

    panafrica Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    http://www.afrol.com/articles/15984
     
  2. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Pan

    Not to stray too much from your article, but East Africa is so diverse for a number of reasons...

    But mainly because of the major influx of Middle Eastern peoples who immigrated into the region over the years.

    The first major immigration was that of thousands of Hebrews around 500 B.C. when Jerusalem was destroyed and sacked by the Chaldeans/Babylonians and many reminants of the Children of Israel took refuge by going down into Africa.

    This is how the Ark of the Covenant ended up down in Ethiopia, and it's also why most of the Ethiopians, Eritreans, and Somalis look so much different from the other black Africans with thier thin features and wavy/curly hair.

    They are mostly Asiatic with various amounts of indeginous African blood from mixing in with the indigenous African Bantu, Dinka, and other tribes.



    Then later on from the 600's onward Arabs came and dwelled among the local black populations adding further to the mixture.

    This was especially the case in Somalia.
     
  3. Charlie_Bass

    Charlie_Bass Banned MEMBER

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    That is incorrect, Ethiopians aren't mixed with Dinka, Bantu, and are sure as heck not mostly Asiatic. Amhara are the most mixed of Ethiopians with 35% paternal Middle-eastern ancestry based on classic genetic markers. Oromos, the other Ethiopian group have only 13% and lower. Somalis have a grand total of 13% Middle-Eastern mixture. East Africans look different mostly due to environmental and climatic selection, not mixture with Arabs, do you truly know anything about African diversity?
     
  4. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    "Charlie"

    You join this community and waste you very first post on attempting to correct me on something we virtually agree with?




    I said

    Not to stray too much from your article, but East Africa is so diverse for a number of reasons...

    But mainly because of the major influx of Middle Eastern peoples who immigrated into the region over the years
    .



    And you retaliated

    "That is incorrect, Ethiopians aren't mixed with Dinka, Bantu, and are sure as heck not mostly Asiatic. Amhara are the most mixed of Ethiopians with 35% paternal Middle-eastern ancestry based on classic genetic markers. Oromos, the other Ethiopian group have only 13% and lower. Somalis have a grand total of 13% Middle-Eastern mixture. East Africans look different mostly due to environmental and climatic selection, not mixture with Arabs, do you truly know anything about African diversity?"

    Aside from having the nerve to try and narrow down the percentage of admixture of entire tribes as if one could ever accurately do it....we both agree that East AFricans are mixed as a result of Middle Eastern influx.

    So how am I incorrect....

    Because I didn't put a whole lot of questionable percentages and figures on the board?


    The mixed ancestry of AfroAmericans only go back a few centuries yet is would still be insane for us to attempt to narrow down the percentage of our admixture because we are so divers.
    How can yo attempt to do it with people such as East Africans who've had a history of race mixing going back thousands of years?






    You seem to be in conflict with not only me but yourself as well...

    You say that East Africans contain a percentage of Middle Eastern ancestry yet you claim I'm incorrect in that ancestry being Hebrew and Arab.

    So what Middle Eastern ancestry were they mixed?





    And one more thing....


    If the Ahmara are mixed with 35% of Middle Eastern ancestry, that means they must be 65% of someting else.

    If the Somalis are 13% of Middle Eastern ancestry, then they are 87% of something else.

    Since you claim I was wrong about the Bantu, Dinka, and other black African tribes being in the mix....who else made up the other large percentage of their ancestry?
     
  5. Charlie_Bass

    Charlie_Bass Banned MEMBER

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    I never said East Africans are completely pure, no one is pure racially or genetically. The east African soma-type is not due to mixing, its due to variation and adaptation. Your statement that Ethiopians are mixed with Bantus and Dinka is simply untrue, there is no historical evidence to confirm this.
     
  6. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Charlie

    I never said East Africans are completely pure, no one is pure racially or genetically. The east African soma-type is not due to mixing, its due to variation and adaptation. Your statement that Ethiopians are mixed with Bantus and Dinka is simply untrue, there is no historical evidence to confirm this.

    You said that the way East AFricans look is due to "adaption".

    First of all, you speak of the East African soma-type as if there is only one. But with in East AFrica itself, there are great physcial differences between various tribes regardless of adaption and environment.

    Not only is there a physical difference but a cultural one as well.

    The Amharic speaking peoples of Ethiopia who maintain a Jewish and Christian heritage look nothing like the tall mountainous tribes who practice ancestor worship and dress less modestly.

    Why the difference if they both come from the same area?


    The thin nosed, wavey haird "Bilees" of Somalia don't look like the wider-nosed, shorter, and kinky-headed Bantu they've been sharing the same land with for thousands of years.


    So where is the evidence of adaption?
     
  7. Charlie_Bass

    Charlie_Bass Banned MEMBER

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    Amharas make up a small percentage of the Ethiopian population and as I've stated they are the most mixed of Ethiopians, but long before mixture they were not thick-lopped and extremely flat nosed. Narrow-headed, narrow-nosed people have been in East Africa long before any historical contact with Arabs or Asians. The Oromo are the biggest group on Ethiopia and they have a grand total of 13% Eurasian mixture, but they still have an 'elongated' morphology, the same with Tutsis who have **NO** Eurasian mixture, they are completely central Africans.
     
  8. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Charlie

    You keep putting out these "percentages" that they are mixed, but I won't even ask you where you're getting this information from as the percentage of admixture isn't of great concern to me.

    I just want to know, if you think they are mixed...exactly WHAT are they mixed with?

    I said the mixture came by as a result of the Hebrews that migrated down to NorthEast Africa before the first destruction of their temple; and later the Arabs after the expansion of Islam.

    But you said I was wrong, so who were these Asians/MiddleEasterns who came down to mix, and why did they come down in such great numbers?

     
  9. Charlie_Bass

    Charlie_Bass Banned MEMBER

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    They do matter because little to no mixture will not affect the phenotype of a population.

    Amharas have 35% haplogroup J which is a genetic marker that is typical of Arabs, specifically J-M267 which is highly prevalent in Southern Arabians. Oromo and Somalis have 13% haplogroup J. Both Oromo and Somalis are closely related Cu****ic speaking populations. Now there you have it, the mixture in Ethiopians and Somalis came from southern Arabia.

    Incorrect, what Jews and Hebrews migrated down to Northeast Africa? The Ethiopian Jews, Beni Israel[sometimes called Falashas, not their true name] have **NO** paternal 'Jewish' mixture[Cohen Modal haplotype], but do have maternal Middle Eastern ancestry. Since Arabs and Jews are virtually indistinguishable in terms of maternal ancestry[except for Southern Arabians, who have substantial black African maternal ancestry], there is no evidence for Jews or Hebrews moving down into Northeast Africa.

    I already stated who, no need to repeat it again. There was no 'great numbers', most Arabs who came into East Africa settled along the coastal areas, their numbers were not great enough to penetrate the interior
     
  10. Ralfa'il

    Ralfa'il Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Charlie


    Thank you for finally admitting that Arab admixture is atleast partially responsible for the diversity of East Africa.


    Now you say....

    They do matter because little to no mixture will not affect the phenotype of a population.

    Amharas have 35% haplogroup J which is a genetic marker that is typical of Arabs, specifically J-M267 which is highly prevalent in Southern Arabians. Oromo and Somalis have 13% haplogroup J. Both Oromo and Somalis are closely related Cu****ic speaking populations. Now there you have it, the mixture in Ethiopians and Somalis came from southern Arabia.


    Yet you said....

    East Africans look different mostly due to environmental and climatic selection, not mixture with Arabs, do you truly know anything about African diversity?

    So you admit that 35% of Ahmara lineage is of Arab ancestry.

    So if being 35% Arab isn't enough to change your appearance and affect the way you look..what is?

    Are you telling me that the Amhara of Ethiopia are genetically more than one-third Arab but that had nothing to do with how they look?

    Are you telling me that it was the "climate and environment" that makes them look different?





    Incorrect, what Jews and Hebrews migrated down to Northeast Africa? The Ethiopian Jews, Beni Israel[sometimes called Falashas, not their true name] have **NO** paternal 'Jewish' mixture[Cohen Modal haplotype], but do have maternal Middle Eastern ancestry. Since Arabs and Jews are virtually indistinguishable in terms of maternal ancestry[except for Southern Arabians, who have substantial black African maternal ancestry], there is no evidence for Jews or Hebrews moving down into Northeast Africa.

    Aside from the fact that much of Southern Arabia was SETTLE BY JEWS and the city of Yathrib (Medina) was founded by Jews.....

    I didn't say JEWS migrated down to Africa.

    JEWS are people originating in Babylon after reminants of the children of Israel were taken into exile by the Chaldeans and their 1st temple was destroyed.

    I said HEBREWS went down into Africa.

    They were a group of people who migrated to the African horn by way of Egypt after while escaping Chaldean captivity around 500 B.C.

    They took most of the ancient scrolls and the Ark of the Covenant with them and that's how it got to Ethiopia.


    In the Book of 2Kings chapter 25 it says:

    "25 But it came to pass in the seventh month, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah, the son of Elishama, of the seed royal, came, and ten men with him, and smote Gedaliah, that he died, and the Jews and the Chaldees that were with him at Mizpah. 26 And all the people, both small and great, and the captains of the armies, arose, and came to Egypt: for they were afraid of the Chaldees. "

    These were that people who migrated and many of them mixed in with the local population.


    There are even tribes STILL in the African horn in nations like Somalia who retain the name Yibir or Hebrew.

    http://www.haruth.com/JewsSomalia.html



    I already stated who, no need to repeat it again. There was no 'great numbers', most Arabs who came into East Africa settled along the coastal areas, their numbers were not great enough to penetrate the interior
    You have no idea of what you are talking about.

    Have you ever heard of the Sabeans?

    They were an civilization of Arabs (ancestors of the Yemenis) who traded and married among the Ethiopians and Somalis for centuries even before Islam.
     
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