Discussion in 'Black People Open Forum' started by RAPTOR, Dec 8, 2012.
"I'm trying to kinda give you a few measures of when you can tell when a person is caught-up in a psycho-pathological fantasy. When the individual responds emotionally and vigorously to ideas and concepts and values and ideologies which if pursued places the individual in danger.. places their very survival in question.. then you know that you are dealing with an individual who has been taken over and possessed by a fantasy."- Amos Wilson
If you were to actually drag this idea through our history in America, it would appear that in steering clear of any mass economic/cultural movement, the masses, have actually got it right.. and that is why they have persisted to now. And from that angle, it could be argued that Amos himself is the one engaged in a fantasy.
History is ripe with examples of the larger societies responses to other such efforts. The Freedman's Bureau Bank swindle, Black Wall Street being razed to the ground, Black men lynched and run off their own land, etc.. along with overt abuses of the criminal justice system and Police power.
History is full of the injustices aimed directly at people doing what he is saying we should do.. and that is part of the reason people don't do those things. They know it will get them killed.. or ostracized.. or imprisoned. The Black Panthers just tried to provide breakfast and medical services and protection for their community and look what happened to them. Look at all of the examples of terror and interference by private citizens and government alike.. Why doesn't Dr. Wilson ever factor those things in his formulations? Everybody related to black self-sufficiency was straight murdered or locked up from like 1950 to 1970-something.. straight murdered. But it's a psycho-pathological fantasy to want peace?. I beg to differ. That's what King's dream speech was about.. Peace. It was about being able to live in peace. The white boys and black boys sitting side by side idea was a metaphoric representation of a peaceful scenario. As Dr. Wilson intimated, King was not happy with the Civil Rights act of '64.. and neither were the people.. as is evidenced in the continuation of the uprising after the Civil Rights bill was signed. Black people are not "stupid" for choosing survival over all else.
I love Amos Wilson for his system of thought and his ability to clearly articulate his ideas. I bought his books when he was alive.. so this is no youtube acquaintance. but I have always felt that much of his criticism of black people was short-sighted in that it did not take direct history into account. He starts with a high-level concept and then applies it to the people directly in it's pure form without any accommodation for the experience down on the ground.. and what that does to his work is make it more philosophy than actionable.. I read his work in the way I read other theorists. His ideas are pristine in a way that allows them to be read more as testaments to his intentions.. to his hopes for his people.. than anything else.
It is very clear that the larger society has always seen black self-sufficiency as a serious threat, any philosophy that would seek to bring about some significant change to the lives of black people, has to factor that in.
Yes. And history is also full of instances where people doing that what he has suggested (more or less) and have improved their situation. One good example is all these 'chinatowns' found in nearly all of our major cities across the u.s..
I too have all his works and I do not find where he does not use history or reflect on history in some way as a launch pad/frame of reference to drive home his point/premise. This is evident in the video, particularly starting and going beyond the 1:03:14 part of the clip:
"...And those programs that we struggled so hard for, fought so hard for to advance our interest as a people..."
Surely, we know what we fought and struggled for and still continue to do.
1:04:04 - "We've paid the price of 100's of years of slavery in this country. We've paid the price of jimcrowism, we've paid the price of lynching. We've paid the price of injustice. We've paid the price of police brutality. We've paid the price of unemployment. We've paid the price of ignorance and mis-education. We've paid the price with our blood on every theatre of battle that this country has ever entered into. We fought the revolutionary war. We faught the civil war. We fought the spanish-american war. We fought the indian wars. We fought in europe. We fought in Japan..."
To leave it hanging like that leaves much to be desired, wouldn't you think? "Peace" by what means?
I like to think that historically, we are catching our collective breath. An azs-drenching can do that to a person/people. Do you agree that at some point, we're gonna have to climb back in that 'ring' if we are to stand any chance of reclaiming ourselves? Just as you say, "Black people are not "stupid" for choosing survival over all else", is black people crazy/out of their mind for wanting the right to self-determine how they want to live as it is in their best interest in the long-term?
I'm not trying to turn this in to some detailed criticism of Amos Wilson.. so I'm going to keep this short.
When I said he "did not take direct history into account", that's exactly the kind of thing that I mean. I'm not speaking of simply acknowledging the existence of our trials and challenges and obstacles.. I'm talking about applying the knowledge of that history to ones formulations. The China town reference is a good example of not applying a knowledge of our specific history to ones formulations/conclusions/plans/ideas.
China town is not African. And Chinatown is backed by Chinese Banks and investors. And although China is brought up in the media as one of the threats to Western power, there is no major beef with Chinese people on the individual or community levels. There is no fear of Chinese men.. There is no sabotage of Chinese communities. Europeans and Africans in America have a very intimate history and relationship that cannot, in good conscience, be compared to any other groups relationship with Europeans in America.
I'm going to leave it right there.. but let's just say, if he was a user and he posted the things he's saying in this speech in a thread, I would have to pull his thesis apart. I don't see the point in doing that in this context though. I think Amos's ideas can represent an important step toward a fuller consciousness for certain people. I think he is somewhere one lands.. but eventually you out-grow his philosophies and arrive at the next stage of development.
- Peace again.
With the chinese reference, I am saying that if one group can find a way, then another group can. The two groups will not go about obtaining goals and achievement the same way, for the chinese and the afrikan came to this country under different circumstances and hail from historically/culturally different backgrounds. However no one/no group is beyond learning/studying what others have done right and or wrong, take whats applicable and discard the rest.
As for "applying the knowledge of that history to ones formulations", perhaps the piece on assimilationist pitfalls is not the subject for facilitating that request directly. However, there is his "blueprint for blackpower: moral, political and economic imperative", that I think would better facilitate that space.
So what do you suggest, that Afrikans continue to suffer peacefully until we are wiped from the face of the earth? Didn't Rev. King say that "any man who hasn't found something worth dying for' isn't fit to live"? Sounds like you haven't overcome your fear of the white man!
this is a good build
lol..it really is....I'm not sure what to say right now, because I feel like excellent points are being made......
He spoke of Korean elections. Has anyone looked into that?
He also recommended blueprints to grocery stores, are we distributing those?
"...When you fall prey to [assimilationist] fantasies, you become afraid to speak for yourself because you wanna be loved too much. You wanna be accepted too much. You wanna be liked in the community. You want the korean [or any other racial group] to smile at you. Yet, you wanna see in the eyes of other ethnic groups that they don't see you as black. [...] You wanna be loved and accepted by somebody else. You gonna die looking for love and acceptance..." (1:06:22)
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