Black Spirituality Religion : Does the Return Justify the Investment?

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by Destee, Aug 26, 2008.

  1. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    Peace and Blessings Family,

    Does the energy and effort we put into "religion / spirituality" produce the kind of results we're seeking?

    Or do we continually put the energy in, never having realized the results we seek?

    I ask this question because we put lots of energy into "religion / spirituality" ... (name any one, for we've given them all lots of energy) ... yet it seems most agree that none of this has produced any quantitative, collective, measurable, results for our people.

    In spite of this glaring reality, we continue diligently, doing the very same thing ... and, unfortunately, getting the same results.

    I'm looking for and expecting a collective return, that matches our collective investment.

    You all know that our people are some of the most "religious / spiritual" in the world, yet we maintain the bottom rung of most every indicator known to man.

    With this fact in mind, i'm wondering, are our energies misdirected ... or are we satisfied in receiving a return in the "sweet by and by" ... happy to live like we are, until we die?

    Does the return we get from "religion / spirituality" justify the investment we put in?

    What other vehicle would we continually put so much into, never seeing a comparable return?

    :heart:

    Destee
     
  2. Knowledge Seed

    Knowledge Seed Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    It depends on your position in it. It also depends on whether you are dealing with spirituality or religion. There is a huge difference between the two.
     
  3. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    Brother Knowledge Seed ... i really don't want to bog the discussion down with semantics.

    I don't care how you define religion / spirituality, for i am speaking of all of them, anything that remotely resembles either ... for all have left our people on the bottom rung of every indicator known to man. So, for the sake of discussion, you can choose either spirituality, religion, or make up a whole new word for both ... i don't care ... for our people continue to die daily.

    You say it depends on your position in it. Are you suggesting that depending on one's position in the religion or spirituality, our collective return is different? So, if i'm like the President of the Religion or Spirituality, our people hold the highest position of every indicator known to man? And if i'm the janitor of the same, it's the opposite?

    :heart:

    Destee
     
  4. Knowledge Seed

    Knowledge Seed Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Of course your position determines your "collective return". But there can't be a collective return if their isn't a collective investment. There is a collective investment in religion, but not in spirituality. Because we have yet to achieve a collective investment in spirituality, you can't say it has failed us collectively.
     
  5. emanuel goodman

    emanuel goodman Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    we are masters of the study what u speak however we are novices in regards to the practice of what u speak . The art of experience has been replaced by the art of reading and writing. WE all know to talk what u speak however we have humbly not perfected the pratice of. This is my humble opinion. :luv:
     
  6. Omowale Jabali

    Omowale Jabali The Cosmic Journeyman PREMIUM MEMBER

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    First of all if you are speaking in terms of "we" and "collective" I will answer NO. But "we" have been over this before. There is no collective benefit because there is no unified "collective". "We" are individuals following different paths and of various and different religious/spiritual systems.

    This stated of course I must disagree that "We" "maintain the bottom rung of most every indicator known to man".

    For example, to those who ascribe to "prosperity gospel" many can argue that they are among some of the wealthiest Black people on the planet. Statistacal data most likely would back this up as the "collective" wealth of Black people in america actually is greater than perhaps most european nations. Even within the united states there are affluent Black folks in comparison to poor whites, poor Native Americans, poor Asians and poor Latinos/Hispanics. There is an extensive Black "middle class" in america which posesses more weatlh that those who make of the petty bourgeoisie and ruling elite in many African countries.

    And many will say that s its a blessing because of their faith in Lord Jesus. Not to say I agree with this but I do recognize that these Black folks exist, and they are numerous.
     
  7. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    How does one's position determine collective return?

    Please give me an example of this being demonstrated in any kind of scenario.


    What do you mean there isn't a collective investment?

    Throughout our existence as a people, there is evidence of our always being "spiritual / religious."

    Are you saying none of that counts? If none of that counts, what makes you think what you are doing, is going to count?


    Again, i'm really not wanting to play the word game. It doesn't matter to me, what you call it ... the return is the same.

    :heart:

    Destee
     
  8. Omowale Jabali

    Omowale Jabali The Cosmic Journeyman PREMIUM MEMBER

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    This is because there is no one Spiritual or religious Path. And if each Path is one of Self-Initiation then there is no uniifed, collective reality for there to be a collective return.

    I have not always looked at I this way. I came to these conclusions within the last three months. It took some hard truths concerning this "collective" that made me change my perspective.

    Years ago it was the religious/spiritual leaders behind the Black Agenda and other civic organizations. I can not honestly say that their efforts were of no benefit. The times we live in now are qualitatively different than those under Jim Crow and the Black Codes. Just ask some ot the grandparents who are still living and some of our own parents born under segregation.

    As far as "not perfected the practice of" I totally agree.
     
  9. anAfrican

    anAfrican Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    depends on how much is invested.

    "i am the way the truth and the light; no one cometh unto the Father but by me."

    "yea though i stand at the door and knock .." i misremember the rest; " .. sup with me .." " ... everlasting life ..." er .. 'scuse!

    anyway.

    for the most part it seems that there is this notion of stopping at the door and focussing on Brother Jesus. further compounded by the silliness that one can not "walk in God's Grace" until one dies. with that much "investment", no, it ain't much worth it.

    however, tossing the Brother a high-five, a "Thank You" and easing on through that Door, one finds that, indeed "in my Father's House are many mansions". and each of those mansions are full of doors into many rooms with many mansions full of rooms with many mansions full of rooms ...

    it's like that first door ("the first one is always free") is the gateway to Spirituality. (remember Richard's (R.I.P.) character saying "Black folks is tight with God"? <grin>)

    anyway. the return is definitely worth it WHEN ONE ACTUALLY MAKES THE INVESTMENT: ya gots to go through the Door!

    after running around getting lost in all them Rooms and Mansions, The Boss walked up behind me and tapped me on the shoulder again and Said "C'Mere; I Wanna Show You Something". He took me up on another Floor that i hadn't gotten to yet. down at the end of a very long corridor was yet another Door. we strolled on down to this one and She Opened It. it wasn't another room full of mansions full of rooms full of mansiion full ... it was a Balcony. "Let Me Show You Something That Truly Astounds Me:, He Said. (got me kinda worried; "astounds" HER?? whoa!)

    well, He Opened that Door and stepped out on the Balcony and said "Look At THAT". i'm looking, and i'm seeing some just stunning vistas and going "Wow!!". She Says "No, Up There." i start to look at where He's pointing and the next thing i know, i'm sitting up, with a bump on the back of my head and i'm like four feet back down the hall. i'm thinking "whoa .. what happened." i'm looking around and look back out through the door and my eyes start to climb ... and then She's like "They Always Do That For A While" as the water out of the empty glass in His Hand is cascading down my face.

    there is something very much bigger than the Bliss we find when we fully invest ourselves in what is offered. but one has to invest oneself before one dies!

    yeah; the Return is Immaculate!!

    is it "concrete"? well, except in the sense that there ain't nothing in this realm/plane of existence that worries me, that is bigger than me, that i can't handle, no; goldman sachs ain't gonna put much store by it.

    but in the sense that one not only can See all the Beauty in every one of Her Creations, but one can touch that Beauty, be Touched by that Beauty, be influenced by that Beauty and be Influenced by that Beauty (and know that "Beauty" is entirely too small a word/concept!), that Return will keep one going when one just gets all sorts of frustrated!

    now, if y'all are all "surprised" to hear this coming out of anAfrican, know that this is the fount of my Spirituality: i prolly wouldn't have found it if i hadn't dropped out of this man's world and flat out asked to be shown that there had to be someting better. (this was the first time She tapped me on the shoulder. that time, He grabbed me up in Her fist and walked me around showing me stuff using my head as a pointer! a story for another time.)

    (oh dear. there seem to have been some thoughts given to the question before i got this finished. instead of "thinking" these sorts of questions require "feeling". "interesting".

    with what they've said, with what i've said and what you've read, do you think that a "collective return" is possible, Destee?)
     
  10. Knowledge Seed

    Knowledge Seed Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Well in most cases people in power look out for their own kind i.e. race, ethnic group.


    Spirituality is a process of self initiation, meaning that no one else is involved. Therefore there is no "collective investment". Religion is partaken in collectively.[/QUOTE]

    Again there is a HUGE difference between the two. Spirituality is personal. Religion is collective.

    We have had great success as religious people. Most if not all of that success was under the banner of Islam. But if you compare our religious success to our spiritual success, the latter far outweighs the other.



    No word games at all. Just stating the facts.
     
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