Science and Technology : Do You Believe In UFOs

ZealotX

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Jan 21, 2020
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At first you thought that they did not even know what a Volcano was now you realize that they had a term for it "Raging Mountains". Since they have a term for it, then it is safe to assume it is general Knowledge - the all knew what a volcano is..
No, brotha. I said They have a term for it NOW. As far as they were concerned these were just mountains. Volcano is defined as "a mountain or hill, typically conical, having a crater or vent through which lava, rock fragments, hot vapor, and gas are being or have been erupted from the earth's crust."

Unless they went to the top and looked down, how would they know it was more than just a mountain? And if they weren't familiar with other volcanos all they would do is describe the intense effects, but not necessarily connect them to the mountain as a geological event. I'm saying this is what we do that they didn't do. While we say, that's a volcano and the light is produced by lava, they simply spoke of what they saw. A pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. That's a volcano. They thought the fire was God "descending" upon the mountain top. So their UNDERSTANDING of what happen conflicts with the obvious identity of the mountain as being a volcano. The fact that they thought this was God is exactly what leads me to believe that volcanos were not common knowledge and they didn't know what it was. I'm not calling them stupid but yes they were ignorant of this particular thing because they saw it through the lens of superstition.

This site which I found the translation to "raging mountain" also talks aboue Exodus Decoded and the appearance of volcanos in the bible. I highly recommend you read this page. Skim at least.


And then I quoted from this site:


“Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke, for God had come down upon it in fire; the smoke rose like the smoke of a kiln, and the whole mountain trembled violently.” (Exodus 19:18)

Sounds like a volcano to me.

This site speaks of a new theory in which YHWH was previously worshiped by miners as a god of metallurgy in the ancient Canaanite pantheon.

In the Bible, Yahweh’s appearance is usually accompanied by volcanic-like phenomena. When he descends upon Mt. Sinai to reveal the Torah to the Jews, the mountain erupts in fire, spewing lava and billowing clouds accompanied by earthquakes and thunderstorms (Exodus 19:16-19).

In antiquity, metallurgical deities like the Greek Hephaestus or his eponymous Roman equivalent, Vulcan, were associated with volcanic descriptions - which closely mirror the smoke, fire, black slag and molten red metal produced in the smelting process, Amzallag says.

Poetic metaphors throughout the Bible describe Yahweh as a fiery deity who makes the mountains smoke (Psalms 144:5) and melts them down (Isaiah 63:19b), just like smelters melt down ore to obtain copper and other metals, the researcher notes. In fact, in Psalm 18:18 Yahweh is depicted as anthropomorphized furnace: “smoke rose from his nostrils; consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.”

To ancient people, the process of melting down rocks to extract metal would have “appeared completely preternatural and required a divine explanation,” Amzallag told Haaretz.

Yahweh’s metallurgical attributes were also on display in the pillar of fire and smoke by which he guides the Hebrews in the desert (Exodus 13:21) and the cloud that accompanies his visits to the Tent of Meeting (Exodus 33:9-10), a simpler version of the Tabernacle in which Moses speaks face to face with God.

The description of this tent bears remarkable similarities to the sanctuary in Timna, further suggesting that 3,000 years ago, this place may have been dedicated to the worship of Yahweh, Amzallag maintains.
And what this made me think of while reading it just now was the statue of nebuchadnezzer and the Hebrew boys that were put into the furnace and did not burn. Just like the story of the burning bush. Again... its not about whether every story literally happened. You can assume it all happened if you want. That's fine. For me, its about where did these ideas originate. Because that influences the story and its development.

As YOU said... it seems more like Jethro converted Moses to Yahweh. And that probably hit the nail on the head.

Note that the so-called Midianite-Kenite hypothesis goes back to the 19th century, when biblical scholars saw Jethro’s story as evidence that these groups introduced the Israelites to the worship of Yahweh. Amzallag seems to be the first to stress the metallurgical side of this hypothesis and link Yahweh specifically to the rites and cults of ancient miners and smelters.

...

But while weeding out explicit mentions of Yahweh’s roots, the editors of the Bible could not completely ignore the traditions and stories that were already an integral part of the identity of this cult, he suggests.

Yahweh’s fiery attributes or the stories of a shared Abrahamic origin for the peoples of the Levant are echoes of more ancient beliefs, he says, clues that remind us that “once there was no exclusive connection between God and Israel. Initially, God belonged to all.”
 

frankster

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Aug 3, 2014
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No, brotha. I said They have a term for it NOW. As far as they were concerned these were just mountains. Volcano is defined as "a mountain or hill, typically conical, having a crater or vent through which lava, rock fragments, hot vapor, and gas are being or have been erupted from the earth's crust."
The quote below does not distinguish between now and then, and even quotes a psalm to show that it was more likely then than now...."they let out smoke" or "raging {mountain}".
I quote
"Even this site, that teaches Hebrew mentions "Exodus Decoded" and its suggestion that the Ten Plagues were caused by the Santorini eruption. This page also tells us that...
Volcanoes appearing in literary contexts may appear with richer description, as in the Biblical:
The One who glances at the earth and it shakes; who touches the mountains and they let out smoke. (Psalms 104)
So again... you're not getting a single word for volcano. In Hebrew volcanos are "raging" mountains. So they are known by their description. "they let out smoke". So even though we see this in psalms and hebrew speakers agree that is describing a volcano, the biblical writer obviously connects God to the geological event "



Unless they went to the top and looked down, how would they know it was more than just a mountain?
If it was a Volcano They could or would see fire and smoke rising or spewing out of it..... there is no need to go up the mountain.


And if they weren't familiar with other volcanos all they would do is describe the intense effects, but not necessarily connect them to the mountain as a geological event. I'm saying this is what we do that they didn't do. While we say, that's a volcano and the light is produced by lava, they simply spoke of what they saw. A pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. That's a volcano. They thought the fire was God "descending" upon the mountain top. So their UNDERSTANDING of what happen conflicts with the obvious identity of the mountain as being a volcano. The fact that they thought this was God is exactly what leads me to believe that volcanos were not common knowledge and they didn't know what it was. I'm not calling them stupid but yes they were ignorant of this particular thing because they saw it through the lens of superstition.
I am saying they know the difference, and Moses tried using his own words to describe what was being experienced. Some actions Moses described being taken by the "pillar of smoke" cannot be a volcano.....unless as you contend Moses is a liar and a conman.

Yet you quote the "smoke and or fire was descending" because you think it fits with your hypothesis, whilst we (moderns) know smoke from a volcano ascend especially if described in a pillar form and fire or molten lava burns and consumes that which it comes in contact with.....




This site which I found the translation to "raging mountain" also talks aboue Exodus Decoded and the appearance of volcanos in the bible. I highly recommend you read this page. Skim at least.


And then I quoted from this site:





This site speaks of a new theory in which YHWH was previously worshiped by miners as a god of metallurgy in the ancient Canaanite pantheon.



And what this made me think of while reading it just now was the statue of nebuchadnezzer and the Hebrew boys that were put into the furnace and did not burn. Just like the story of the burning bush. Again... its not about whether every story literally happened. You can assume it all happened if you want. That's fine. For me, its about where did these ideas originate. Because that influences the story and its development.

As YOU said... it seems more like Jethro converted Moses to Yahweh. And that probably hit the nail on the head.

I know all about where these ideas come from and who the Hebrew people really are....but that's not what we are discussing here, so it's beside the point at this juncture. To entire into such an exchange will only further confound the issue...the questions are
Is it a volcano?
Is Moses a conman?


Geological event "the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof.....in him we live move and have our being" The connection is to God.
You think the Ancients see the world in parts. No the see the entire existence as one whole and that one whole is God. We moderns see the world in parts and then try to find how the parts relate to the whole.

It is always best when someone proves something for themselves, as you are now beginning to ascertain the relationship between Jethro and Moses.
 

ZealotX

Well-Known Member
MEMBER
Jan 21, 2020
83
34
I don't want to argue process.

The quote below does not distinguish between now and then, and even quotes a psalm to show that it was more likely then than now...."they let out smoke" or "raging {mountain}"
The site doesn't claim they had a word for volcano. If you had "a word" for volcano you wouldn't describe it as described in Psalms 104. Let's say the Hebrew word for volcano was "razmataz". It would say something like "The One who glances at the earth and ceates "earthquakes" (as they didn't have a word for this either); who touches mountains and makes them "razmataz".

Do you see? This time period was much earlier in linguistic history. Period. They didn't have words for everything. We STILL do not have words for everything. Many words have multiple definitions. However, volcano was accepted as representing what a volcano is before science needed to add a word of its own to distinguish it from mountains. So what I'm suggesting to you is that if they had a word for volcanoes they would have used it. The site isn't saying they had a word for it in the past. It's simply drawing a conclusion that certain mountains mentioned in the bible were volcanoes based on their description relative to the modern hebrew word for volcano and its etymological origins.

If it was a Volcano They could or would see fire and smoke rising or spewing out of it..... there is no need to go up the mountain.
you mean like the "pillar of fire"? or the "cloud"? You allow both of these obvious signs of a "raging mountain" being a volcano and allow them to be disembodied from the mountain they appear over. The israelites don't say they were led by a volcano or a "raging mountain" but rather by the cloud and the "pillar of fire". Clouds exist in nature and are not noteworthy of themselves. They could have only been led by a cloud that was fundamentally different from all other clouds in the sky. They had to travel by foot and saw what was most likely the same volcano that Moses was near to in Midian, because Jethro was there and no evidence of Jethro going to Egypt with Moses or being present when they left Egypt on foot. So these elements had to be visible for almost 300 miles at least. From that distance, if the terrain was flat, how much of the mountain would be visible on the horizon? Just... think about it.

I am saying they know the difference, and Moses tried using his own words to describe what was being experienced. Some actions Moses described being taken by the "pillar of smoke" cannot be a volcano.....unless as you contend Moses is a liar and a conman.

Yet you quote the "smoke and or fire was descending" because it fits with your hypothesis, whilst we (moderns) know smoke from a volcano ascend especially if described in a pillar form and fire or molten lava burns and consumes that which it comes in contact with.....
Yes... I AM saying Moses was a liar and a conman. I'm pretty sure I said that explicity. It is the very discription of "God descending in fire" that I'm taking issue with. What they saw wasn't "coming down". It was "going up". But it fit Moses's propaganda to say that "God was coming down" because with all the theological dogma concerning angels and the "heavens" it wouldn't work to make "God" come "up from the ground". There isn't even enough material on the top of a mountain to sustain a fire, so it wasn't that God's presence ignited the mountain but that his presence was the fire.

Because of the sheer size of it, Moses could pull off this deception since no one had seen a volcanic eruption before. Even if you think someone else saw one and the word was spread but not to the extent that there was a word for it... there's no reason to believe the FIRST person who saw a volcanic eruption was any less superstitious or any more of a scientist than the Israelites were. So even if someone else saw a "raging mountain", what could they really say about it without getting close enough to learn that it was a natural phenominon. I'm black. I assume you are too. Are you telling me that if you saw a volcanic eruption and didn't know what it was you would go investigate it? Or would you run as soon as you sensed danger? I am suggesting to you that they really didn't know what a volcano was, as science had not progressed far enough to give them that understanding. It's not about being smart or intelligent. If they had the scientific understanding they wouldn't have been so superstitious in general. And we all know they were so it's hard for me to really grasp your argument to the contrary. Ignorance is the evironment that superstition thrives in. Take away ignorance and you take away superstition. There are still people today who are superstitious and who believe in magic. Are they typically working in fields of advanced science and boast degrees? You know the answer is no.

Geological event "the Earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof.....in him we live move and have our being" The connection is to God.
You think the Ancients see the world in parts. No the see the entire existence as one whole and that one whole is God. We moderns see the world in parts and then try to find how the parts relate to the whole.
Sure... except that the bible doesn't say God swallowed Jonah. It says a whale swallowed Jonah. The implication is that God, being all powerful, sent the whale and instructed it. The implication in Exodus, is not that God used a volcano to guide them, but that he descended from the sky and physically manifested in fire on top of a REGULAR mountain... which just so happened to have all the observable traits and characteristics of a volcano. But you don't want to call it that. You're arguing that it wasn't a volcano but rather smoke and fire. And that this fire happened to, at one time, be located at the top of a mountain, but that the smoke and/or fire was also independent of any such mountain, such that God could descend another time, without the super dangerous, kill you if you got too close fire, in exchange for a more tame version that appeared at the extremely flammable tent used for ritual temple services where they expected the people to bring them free food and gifts because of the belief that Moses convinced them to have in a God who had descended in fire.

So why should I or anyone, for that matter, believe that Moses was just being honest, and that he had talked to God and God had told him to collect food and money from the people, to give to he and his family. So not only are we to believe that a volcano wasn't a volcano, but was God. We're also supposed to believe that Moses heard a voice from it that told him what to tell the people to do, which just so happened, by strange coincidence, to benefit Moses and Aaron? And wait! That's not all! We must also believe that anyone who didn't believe Moses (and who therefore might spread dissent against him and cause other people to think too hard and to second guess Moses) all deserved to die and it was God who told Moses to execute them. So we must also conclude that God is a tyrant who doesn't care that he supposedly made you with freedom to choose or to think and reason, but must, whenever he chooses a human to chat with and somehow is unable to talk loud enough (microphone... speakers... megaphones...) so that everyone could hear. We must also conclude that Moses told other people not to go with him to talk to God, ever, not because he didn't want witnesses that would say he was lying, but because they weren't holy enough or whatever enough for God to want to talk to them or even allow them to overhear what he was saying. We must also believe that this same God who could kill the first born of Egypt with the "angel of death" was somehow unable to simply kill their enemies so that they wouldn't have to fight. We also have to believe they had enough time to make weapons to fight with as I don't know any large mass of slaves who are allowed to be armed; especially if pharaoh had taken such extreme precautions against them that he had their sons killed. But suddenly they have an army. And we have to believe that when Moses held his staff up (which means he wasn't doing a lick of fighting himself) it was helping them win and how does that even work? This leads us to the belief that God would only help them fight if Moses behaved like Gandalf the Grey. And if he didn't then God was going to let them lose and die.

Is this what you'd rather believe? If you really marinate on everything I just said... and this was just off the dome... what it describes is an evil, petty, childish god who takes commands from humans but only if they perform some action that looks like they're doing magic. But we know people who perform some action like this with the hopes to deceive the audience to think they did magic. We call them magicians... illusionists. And we know that however it is they are doing what they're doing, its not really magic but rather clever deception and manipulation. This is what Moses did. This is what he did when he went up against the priests (magicians) of Egypt.

Exodus 7:11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:

This is what Moses learned in Egypt. He didn't simply learn wisdom and knowledge. The magicians of Egypt were using illusions and manipulation to make people, even the king, believe that they either had magic powers or were in contact with spirits who did. They didn't have a word for volcano but they had a word for sorcerer (kashaph) and another word for "magicians" (khartome) and a word for "enchantments" (lahat). So you want to explain to me how they had multiple words for magic and people who practiced it, not were describing volcanoes in vague descriptions?

How about you explain...

Isaiah 30:33
Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.


Why is the breath of Yahweh like a "stream" of "burning sulfur"?



Do you still insist that these holy mountains weren't volcanoes?
 

ZealotX

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Jan 21, 2020
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Psalms 104

1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
...
26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
...
32 He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: he toucheth the hills (har), and they smoke (ashan).
 
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