Black Spirituality Religion : Did the Biblical God Cause Adam to Sin? Genesis Revisited

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by river, Jun 16, 2009.

  1. river

    river Watch Her Flow MEMBER

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    God creates a man and does not give him the knowledge of right from wrong , good from evil. he puts that knowledge in the fruit of a tree then tells the man not to eat that fruit.

    I posit that Adam's fault was not disobedience at alal but in discriminant obedience.

    Having no concept of good and evil Adam did not know that he should obey god and not others. He simply obeys everyone. He obeys the commandment of god until the next person comes and gives him a new commandment. When Eve offers Adam the forbidden fruit he takes it immediately. There is no struggling with his conscience. No wrestling with whether it is right or wrong. He knows nothing of that.

    Eve, on the other hand, being a woman and somewhat more receptive to the spirit world offers the serpent brief scrutiny of what he tells her to do. Not because she thinks it is wrong but because she has a slight perception that dying may be something she doesn't want to do, though nothing in her world had ever died so she quickly brushes her concerns aside.

    The god of the bible returns and as if he does not understand the psychology of the humans he has made he acts as if Adam has done something wrong and worthy of punishment. And now we are to believe that because of these circumstances which the god of the bible set up himself the entire human race is worthy of eternal punishment.

    This doctrine does not exist in the old testament. It does not exist in the gospels. It came into existence because the Church realized that they could not convince people that they needed Jesus to save them from their sins when these people had a standard of morality higher than that of the Europeans who were supposedly trying to save them. The doctrine of original sin excuses the degraded behavior of the proselytizers and discounts the superior morality of the so called savages.

    I've even heard a preacher say that hell is full of good people. Many of our enslaved ancestors rejected Christianity because they had been beaten and raped, and killed and humiliated in every conceivable way by those who were trying to perv xxxxx I mean convert them and death was their only hope of rest. The thought of spending eternity in a heaven full of white folks was too much.
     
  2. Ikoro

    Ikoro Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    LOL!!!

    Sister River, I love you! Do you know that? For real, I really love you.

    This is beautiful. Many of us know this, but always good seeing it discussed and debated.

    However, maybe my understanding here is bad, but it seems as if Eve is more to blame than Adam. Adam is the unknowing (read: innocent) child, and Eve was more prone to scrutiny - but went ahead anyway.

    Explain?

    One.

    - Ikoro
     
  3. river

    river Watch Her Flow MEMBER

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    You love da river? Then you will flow smoothly indeed.

    Your question is valid. Many women in the Church take Paul's statement that Eve was deceived to mean that it was Adam who knew what he was doing and Eve was the innocent (read: gullible) party.

    Neither of them fully understood what they were doing. Eve based her decision on the fact that the fruit was good (in the sense of being suitable not moral goodness) for food and the acquisition of knowledge. The god of the Bible gave Adam a task to subdue and have dominion over the Earth. Eve knew that in order to do this her husband needed knowledge.

    Now if you look at this from a European cosmology Eve taking the trade off with the full knowledge of what it means to die would be beyond stupidity.

    But if you look at it from an African cosmology it is the death of the ego that the eternal spirit may have knowledge In that case what they got was not a punishment but a natural consequence. The body (ego, person, individual) dies so that the spirit may grow. The way the god of the bable wanted it is for the body to live on forever and the spirit to remain in a state of eternal stagnation.. Just like now they give us material trinkets--gold-plated chains to hide the fact that the inner self is enslaved. The Creator of the uni-verse knows all things and is not taken by surprise by anything people choose to do.. It is the European mind that reduced the Creator to this low level regional manager whose childish understanding can only see the processes of nature and spirit in terms of sin..

    Why would anyone care to look at a European text from an African cosmology. Because nothing originates in Europe. Everything they have is a stolen and twisted version of African truths. The effort to insist that we are reading historical events hides the deeper esoteric message in the mythology behind any text.

    We know the bible is not historical because the first people were Black. But Adam and Eve--there's no way they were Black for two reasons.

    1 There's not a Black women living that would take an apple from a snake.
    2. There's not a Black man living that would give up his rib for a woman.

    nuff said
     
  4. Ikoro

    Ikoro Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Peace Sis. River.

    Personally, I'd give my heart, liver, kidney and what-not if the Creator said he'd give me a good Sister. So I'm not sure about your point there...

    Also, let's be honest, some things have originated in europe. White jesus, white god, black devil (concept of), racism, white supremacy, synthetic foods, AIDS, ressentiment and many other things. Some good things too, like uh... you know... printing technology or something (help me out here)?

    My original question was directed at your first post which seemed to indicate that you blame Eve for the fall of man, I see that this is not the case.

    You got an interesting point when you say that Eve knew her husband had dominion, and to have dominion one must have knowledge (unless you're a figurehead like Bush etc). But if you wanna get into details, who told Eve that Adam had dominion. Does the bible shed any light on this?

    For if your theory is to have any validity it must be made certain that Eve was told upon her conception that Adam was "da man". If not, she acted out of something else than innocence...WAIT.

    I'm re-reading your post yet again, and what it looks like this time around is that Eve planned a rebellion against god or something. Follow this:

    1. Adam was "da man" (read: had dominion)
    2. Eve was created and was informed that Adam was to have dominion
    3. Eve talks to the snake, deems the apple good for Adam because it gives knowledge
    4. Disobeys god (that is, Eve does) and gives Adam the knowledge to be independent of god

    Whoa. I'm maybe taking it out of context.

    My final question, why apply Afrikan cosmology to a perverted book? That's like applying Odinani to the satanic scriptures or sankofa to a playboy magazine?

    Just wondering, what's the purpose?

    Much love, keep on flowing.

    - Ikoro
     
  5. WARRIOR

    WARRIOR BAMN - By Any Means Necessary PREMIUM MEMBER

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  6. river

    river Watch Her Flow MEMBER

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    :D

    Now that you mention it I may have overlooked a few of their contributions to world destruction. My bad :bowdown: to the king.

    Brotha this is where things get confusing. If we read the first chapter of Genesis the god of the bible creates Adam and Eve together and gives them both dominion over the earth (see verse 28). But in chapter two this god creates man first and there is no mention of dominion but he puts the man in the Garden of Eden to be the gardner. He then decides that it is not good for the man to be alone and as an after thought creates the animals. But none of them is suitable so we then get the proverbial story of the proverbial rib. Surprised? Read chapter two beginning with the fifth verse you will see a story they don't teach in Sunday school.

    I could continue here but I have a feeling you aren't the least bit interested in reading verse five of the satanic scriptures. It does say they were naked so funny you should mention Playboy.



    My purpose is to re-examine and dispel the myth that Jesus came to save us from a hell we all deserve to go to but for the grace of the god of the bible. This myth is the foundation--the sine qua non of evangelical Christianity. Yet like so many things in the bible it crumbles when examined too closely.

    Why do I use the bible to make this point? Because the myth does not exist outside the bible In every other system of belief that I know of salvation is based on charaacater. Our ancestors built pyramids all over the Earth but...do you know of any being built in Europe? These pyramids were aligned with the stars and had a reflective covering that could be seen from the sky. It's as if they were directing space traffic and saying don't even bother to come to Europe. Please correct me if I am mistaken about no pyramids in Europe. I just never heard of it. The white man is the only group to whom no prophet was sent. Yet through violence and deceit they have hoisted their book on the whole world. It has it's effect on us and it needs to be examined. Knowamsane?

    Since it affects African People and is a point of reference for many of us who wouldn't dream of reading about the African cosmology it's good to show how that cosmology is present in a book that has taught us to fear and shun that very cosmology.
     
  7. Khasm13

    Khasm13 STAFF STAFF

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    if God is omnipresent and omnipotent then b4 he created adam and eve he knew what the outcome would be....in my opinion the bible has good story about morality and such but should not be taken literally....

    one love
    khasm
     
  8. ru2religious

    ru2religious Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    NATURALLY I HAD TO JUMP IN ON THIS ONE

    An excerpt from the book I was writing about 7 years ago.

    ...

    “Before Adam (humankind – male/female) was ever introduced to these so-called trees mankind (Adam) had already been in a state of sin i.e. ignorance, but not before and after the birth of humanity based on the biblical and Gnostic passages. When Adam (humanity) was born on this planet according to the scriptures the spirit (Rauch/Feminine) had to enter into Adam in order for (him) to have life. This spirit i.e. Rauch was wisdom herself later called Eve i.e. ‘Life-giver’ because it was Spirit that gave life Adam (humanity).

    Wisdom and Eve are one and the same which I go into greater details in the book that I’m currently writing, but for all intents and purposes this point must be understood. When God (Elohim i.e. Gods) caused Adam to go to sleep we have two point that much be understood which will enlighten us more deeply on the tree issue.

    1. When the God/Gods caused Adam to sleep it wasn’t a physical sleep as to say all of humanity went to sleep physically at the same time. It’s to say, that wisdom was removed from humanity i.e. Eve, man was no longer in a state of perfection because perfection is without sleep which is what Adam (humanity) was sunken down into; ignorance.

    2. If most would have saw the underline wisdom of the scriptures as they read one will realize that Adam (humanity) was never reawaken but remain in a state of sleep (ignorance). The scriptures continue to read as though he was reawaken but there is no scripture which is provided describing his reawakening.


    Before ‘Eve’ was taken out of man, ‘Eve’ entered into ‘Adam’ a.k.a. ‘humanity’ which means ‘Eve/Spirit/Wisdom’ was before man
    . This is where the stories began to take a turn. When ‘Eve’ was taken out of Adam (humanity), the female aspect of humanity became known as ‘Eve’ but the female aspect now known as ‘Eve’ is not the same spiritual aspect as the great mother of all living ‘Eve’. Now so that we can make this extremely clear, Eve was not taken out of man but she removed herself so that these deities wouldn’t try to enslave her and for this she ascended into the higher spears of realities.

    Here are the issues; when these Gods/Elohim put Adam (humanity) to sleep which is to say ignorance, wisdom was no longer with humanity and thus humans became susceptible to the control of extraterrestrial beings posing as the creators of humanity which is to say the creation of our souls/sol. They began to instruct humanity as though humans needed their instructions. The remnants of the spiritual ‘Eve’ still exist within humanity and that is enough to do major damage and so the tree of knowledge was placed in the garden intentionally which would introduce man to something that would be more damaging to mankind then any other force in the universe.

    Humanity was once in a state of perfection which knew nothing of ‘GOOD’ or ‘EVIL’ which mean humanity was once above the laws of ‘GOOD and EVIL’. GOOD and EVIL can be summed up in one word and that word is ‘JUDGMENT’. Judgment is the determining factor that assigns and distribute the attributes called ‘GOOD and EVIL’ to any action based on social standards. This so-called fruit the physical Eve bit into was not a physical fruit or the fruit would have been named ‘apple’ or whatever. This fruit was a teaching from other intelligent life forms that were in this so-called garden. This fruit (knowledge) taught man how to murder and what feeling pain was. It taught man (humanity) death (“for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”) but worst of all it taught man how to fear.

    When humanity (Adam) feel deep into sleep/ignorance, knowledge was introduced to him but before knowledge was introduced man was equality yoked with ‘Eve’ – wisdom.

    Evil in essence was introduced to humanity by way of the gods which one informs you without a second thought about it.

    (Isaiah 45:5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    The scriptures in Genesis go further to say – …”



    The TREE OF KNOWLEDGE was intentional …


    Peace


    Ru2religious
     
  9. Ikoro

    Ikoro Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Peace Ru2religious and all other fam members.

    I think we can safely establish that most religions have a flaw in their logic (note: at least the three great ones) due to their concept of the predetermined outcome of things as orchestrated by their god.

    Had this discussion with a moslem Sister the other day, she was sad that their mosque wouldn't pray for young sister who killed herself due to family problems (suicide is a sin, right). So her question was, if god knows everything (it is written) then he must have known and planned her demise through suicide ---- but why?

    This logic gap is found in christianity and probably judaism too. The devils have found many interesting ways to divert intellectual attention from this.

    In the case of adam and eve, the original sin and everything inbetween, it is safe to conclude that this was all in gods plan.

    If he was omnipotent he wouldn't have let lucifer/snake into eden, that would make god ignorant, and that is something we simply cannot concede to. So god planned the original sin, he meant for it all to happen.

    Take a look at judas right, he was a sinner (the greatest of them all, apparently). But without him there would be no death of jesus and thus no "saviour" that "took our sins". God orchestrated that too, so judas must actually be a saviour too.

    You'll never see christians or moslems admitting this, the grip on their minds is too strong.

    This is getting longwinded, for more info on my view on why they can't be liberated thru force see here.

    I suppose the remaining questions was - what was gods plan with the original sin, judas and so forth. For surely, there must be a scheme (whether good or bad).

    Otherwise, great thread and good to see the discussion going deep.

    One.

    ps.: If the Tree of Knowledge was intentional, then that must mean the whole scheme was to out man and woman into ignorance...? Christians would say something like "it was to test us, to make us worthy". What would we reply to such an asinine statement?

    - Ikoro
     
  10. Bootzey

    Bootzey Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    And are you even sure the tree was the "Tree of Good anf Evil"? Because if Eve had no concept of the good/evil = right/wrong, then how could they be expected to know that what they were doing was a setup? Isn't entrappment illegal? Shouldn't they get off due to a technicality?
     
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