Pan Africanism : Can You Really “Go Home” Again?

Discussion in 'Black History - Culture - Panafricanism' started by zuleilah2, Feb 5, 2004.

  1. zuleilah2

    zuleilah2 Banned MEMBER

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    How would you feel if you repatriated to Africa, only to find that some native
    Africans treat you the same way some whites treated you in America?
     
  2. Sun Ship

    Sun Ship Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Do Africans treat whites bad??

    You can be treated badly by anybody or any country, let alone an African state or Native Africans in the continent.

    Even African Americans can treat each other just as bad as whites can or worse.

    Africans in the continent, at certain times, can treat their fellow countrymen just as bad or worse than whites have. Look at Nigeria, Rwanda and the Sudan. Or the opposite, Liberia (ex-African Americans treating native indigenous Africans just as bad or worst than whites have.)

    I don’t understand your point. You act like Africans are uncivilized. This is what constitutions, the democratic process, law and justice suppose to safeguard. This is what spirituality, wisdom, intelligence and culture is for.

    Why should Africans in the continent treat Africans of the diaspora worst than whites treat us?? :confused:

    I never had any African American tell me of "white racist-like" treament in Africa.

    Or why should they treat us worst than the “WHITES” who visit, invest, vacation and live in Africa, to this very day?

    White Europeans attacked, colonized, uprooted, exploited and practiced genocide on Africans and Africans treat them very well (?)

    This is a loaded question or it wasn’t well thought out or something (????)
    :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
     
  3. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Complexities hidden underneath simplicities

    Brother Sun Ship, I agree with your points about the nature of the question. It's a simple question actually, but one that is dangerous if left for anyone to assume that all things are equal between Africans and whites and how they treat Africans in the diaspora.

    Zuleilah, I agree with Brother Sun Ship, why would Africans want to treat Africans in the diaspora as badly as Europeans have and to even ask the question seems as though it suggests that there is a choice for African Americans to decide between living with the known versus the unknown.

    Now, if I simply approached your question from the superficial vantage point in which it was presented, naturally one would have to respond that they wouldn't like to be treated the same way by some Africans as they are treated by some whites. To be honest, I don't want to be treated this way period, regardless of who the perpetrator is.

    So it's a simple answer to a simple question but I'm curious to know where you intended this discussion to lead us? Do you know something we don't? If so, please share. Was there more behind your question than what you presented to us? This is definitely the time and place to discuss it.

    Peace :hot:
     
  4. zuleilah2

    zuleilah2 Banned MEMBER

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    Please reread the question very carefully…

    How would you feel if you repatriated to Africa, only to find that some native
    Africans treat you the same way some whites treated you in America?

    You said…You act like Africans are uncivilized.

    Z: You are jumping to conclusions and making false assumptions.

    You said…This is what constitutions, the democratic process, law and justice suppose to safeguard.

    Z: Are you saying that constitutions, the democratic process, law and justice are “safeguards” against racist behavior by particular individuals on the continent?

    You said…This is what spirituality, wisdom, intelligence and culture is for.

    Z: Are THESE also “safeguards” against racist behavior by particular individuals on the continent?

    You said…Why should Africans in the continent treat Africans of the diaspora worst than whites treat us??

    Z: Why did the African-Americans who colonized Liberia treat native Africans in much the same way that Americans whites treated them?

    The question read… How would YOU feel if you repatriated to Africa, only to find that SOME native Africans treat you the SAME way SOME whites treated you in America?

    You said…I never had any African American tell me of "white racist-like" treament in Africa.

    Or why should they treat us worst than the “WHITES” who visit, invest, vacation and live in Africa, to this very day?

    Z: Are you aware of the “white racist-like” behavior some CAs pick up once they immigrate here and direct toward AAs? Why couldn’t the same behavior be present in Africa?

    Z: Why should such an attitude be directed toward AAs at all?

    You said…White Europeans attacked, colonized, uprooted, exploited and practiced genocide on Africans and Africans treat them very well (?)

    Z: Yes – quite puzzling – or is it?

    You said…This is a loaded question or it wasn’t well thought out or something (????)

    Z: The question is deceptively simple, very well thought out and designed to make one think.
     
  5. zuleilah2

    zuleilah2 Banned MEMBER

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    You said...Zuleilah, I agree with Brother Sun Ship, why would Africans want to treat Africans in the diaspora as badly as Europeans have and to even ask the question seems as though it suggests that there is a choice for African Americans to decide between living with the known versus the unknown.

    Z: Why do you suppose African Americans treated the native Africans in the Liberian colony in much the same way they were treated in America?

    You said...Now, if I simply approached your question from the superficial vantage point in which it was presented, naturally one would have to respond that they wouldn't like to be treated the same way by some Africans as they are treated by some whites. To be honest, I don't want to be treated this way period, regardless of who the perpetrator is.

    So it's a simple answer to a simple question but I'm curious to know where you intended this discussion to lead us? Do you know something we don't? If so, please share. Was there more behind your question than what you presented to us? This is definitely the time and place to discuss it.

    Z: Some AAs I know who have repatriated to various African countries are experiencing this very same attitude directed toward them and aren't coping with it very well. They are shocked, hurt and disappointed, to say the least, when they experience white-racist behavior directed toward them from those they call their brothers and sisters. A few are choosing to come home. Others are choosing to rough it out, confident that they will eventually be accepted.

    Just like some CAs feel as if the Black community rejects them - so it goes for some Diasporic Africans who repatriate and are also rejected by their adopted communities.

    It's both a wake-up call and a hard pill to swallow.
     
  6. Destee

    Destee destee.com STAFF

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    zuleilah2 ... Hello and Welcome Back Home!

    I do agree that the question is deceptively simple and well thought out. It took the dialogue that has already taken place, for me to see this. Thanks to all of you.

    I believe that i would be as you described above, hurt and disappointed, but not shocked. Living in the belly of this beast, it comes as no surprise meeting Sisters and Brothers that are consciously and sub-consciously perpetuating what has been beaten into their / our psyche. It breaks my heart to see it, but i've seen it often. Brothers and Sisters that actually align themselves against their own. In addition to being hurt and disappointed, i feel a great sense of compassion, almost a yearning that they will soon come to themselves. This assault (on us) is not only here, but worldwide. Experiencing it in Africa would call for no different feeling, than it does here in the US.

    In spite of the condition many of my Sisters and Brothers are in, they intended to get us all. You and me too. Therefore, i must remain encouraged and continue to surround myself with positive Sisters and Brothers, no matter where they are, for i know we exist, everywhere.

    Great Topic!

    :heart:

    Destee

    ps ... would your feelings be different, simply based on "where" it took place?
     
  7. Sun Ship

    Sun Ship Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    This is a hard pill for YOU to swallow.

    You may find some who romanticize Africa or Africans on the continent, in this forum, BUT NOT HERE. Africans, have just as much right to be as racist or ignorant as whites or anybody else; that’s if they choose that path. I wouldn’t unnecessarily be surprise, because I know what colonization has done to “SOME” Africans psyche. So in general, once again, I have to say this question is more for simple thinking. Something that can be kicked around and go nowhere.

    But…oh well...let’s try to enlighten the simple.

    This type of prejudicious backwardness would probably be as detrimental to continental Africans as it would be to African Americans.

    African Americans sense of self-realization or ideas about Africa reflects more than the emotions, the biases or phobias of a few xenophobic Africans, wherever they are. We are direct descendants of our legacy and repatriation, not being a loathing or forced gift, but an intelligent compromise to all progressive Africans worldwide, would be the only way Africans in the diaspora would welcome such an offer. African Americans like others have defined our sense of African culture where we are and have been very successful as an African people.

    Remember that Liberia was a white paternalistically controlled repatriation and believe me; whites really had no intention for that to succeed, because it could have been an empowering conduit for a Pan African unification.

    Why would we repatriate to some place where we were not wanted? We are not that desperate, to live in our African ancestral homes.

    I still think if you look at this from on a more sophisticated, intellectual and spiritual level, your question is overly simplified and is probably MORE INSULTING TO AFRICANS ON THE CONTINENT than Africans in the diaspora.

    You need to read more about Africans that have been moving back to Africa for decades. One early example were some African Americans who moved to Ethiopia in the early 1900’s and those who went back in the 40’s to help Haile Selassie fight the Italians.

    I’m sorry Zuleilah, I still find this question is wanting.

    Try again.

    Peace,

    Brother Sun Ship
     
  8. zuleilah2

    zuleilah2 Banned MEMBER

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    You said...This type of prejudicious backwardness would probably be as detrimental to continental Africans as it would be to African Americans.

    Z: This “prejudicious backwardness” is a reality, as acknowledged by some CAs and AAs. So in what way/s would such an attitude be detrimental enough to affect the lives of CAs and AAs both here and on the continent?

    You said...African Americans sense of self-realization or ideas about Africa reflects more than the emotions, the biases or phobias of a few xenophobic Africans, wherever they are.

    Z: How is it possible for AAs to have any “sense of self-realization or ideas about Africa” when most have never set foot on the continent and have no ethnic group identification, through no fault of their own?

    Xenophobia is present in the AA community as well as the CA community and is not limited to just a “few” CAs; hence the presence of what has been labeled as a ‘rift’ between the two communities.

    You said…Remember that Liberia was a white paternalistically controlled repatriation and believe me; whites really had no intention for that to succeed, because it could have been an empowering conduit for a Pan African unification.

    Z: Generally speaking the repatriation of freed African slaves to Liberia was orchestrated by white slaveholders in the guise of the American Colonization society, as a way of establishing a homeland for freed American slaves. However, they had an ulterior motive – to rid America of as many freed slaves as they could. Their fear? The white slaveholders felt that the presence of freed slaves would increase the chances of those still enslaved to “yearn to be free” too – a situation that the white slaveholders wanted to avoid at all costs. So they definitely wanted the little colony to succeed – not fail. The white also saw the potential in establishing commercial ties (Firestone’s presence in 1926, for example), if not political ties. And at the time that Europe was colonizing other regions of Africa, it was hoped that America wouldn’t follow in Europe’s footsteps and wreak havoc on native populations.

    But something dark was simmering beneath the surface of Liberian society – a problem that still echoes in the country today – the division between the Americo-Liberians and their descendants the native Africans which the Americo-Liberians referred to as “aborigines” and set the stage for decades of political violence and mayhem. This situation was further fueled by the U.S. who had been greedily stripping the country of its natural resources (primarily rubber interests) and giving little back in return.


    So I ask you, how could Liberia have become an “empowering conduit for a Pan African unification” when it was not united itself and treated the native population in such a manner?

    You asked…Why would we repatriate to some place where we were not wanted? We are not that desperate, to live in our African ancestral homes.

    Z: The presence of Pan-African organizations and their attendant philosophies belie your words.

    You said…I still think if you look at this from on a more sophisticated, intellectual and spiritual level, your question is overly simplified and is probably MORE INSULTING TO AFRICANS ON THE CONTINENT than Africans in the diaspora.

    Z: It is the sophomoric view of Africa and African culture, in general, that leads to culture shock among many of those that choose to repatriate to the continent and so they return home disillusioned and disappointed by the experience.

    In what way is my question “oversimplified” and “probably MORE INSULTING TO AFRICANS ON THE CONTINENT than Africans in the diaspora”?

    You said…You need to read more about Africans that have been moving back to Africa for decades. One early example were some African Americans who moved to Ethiopia in the early 1900’s and those who went back in the 40’s to help Haile Selassie fight the Italians.

    Z: A book pales in comparison to an 'up close and personal experience', wouldn’t you agree?

    You said…I’m sorry Zuleilah, I still find this question is wanting.

    Try again.

    Z: I disagree. The question, although simple, is ripe with opportunities for discussion.

    Maybe you would be happier discussing another issue more to your liking?
     
  9. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I want to return to the original question . . .

    zuleilah2, if this is your "up close and personal" experience, then who can argue the facts about that?

    Simply asked and simply answered, I wouldn't like it if this was my personal experience. But the question that begs to be asked is why do or would we treat each other in such a despicable way? What could be prompting such behavior?

    Could it be the effects of racism and our exposure to it? Could greed and a need for power be part of the reason as well? Can Africans be racists toward each other and can it have the same affect as a white racist? Isn't racism one racial group's ability to have complete power and control (political, economic and social) over another racial group? Can a white person be racist against another white person? An African might be able to emulate or mimic the racist behavior of white oppressors, but is it really racism they are practicing or merely discrimination?

    I'm not sure where you want this discussion to lead but with more direction from you, I'm sure we can debate this for a while.

    Peace,
    Queenie :spinstar:
     
  10. zuleilah2

    zuleilah2 Banned MEMBER

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    You said…But the question that begs to be asked is why do or would we treat each other in such a despicable way?

    Z: Yes…why? I have no idea why some of us would mimic the behavior of those who once colonized and enslaved us.

    You said… What could be prompting such behavior? Could it be the effects of racism and our exposure to it? Could greed and a need for power be part of the reason as well?

    Z: Human nature? … as in

    -the need to “lord” it over and/or exploit those we feel are weaker than we are or ‘below’ us in society
    -xenophobia
    -stereotypical beliefs
    -greed
    -religious differences

    You said…Can Africans be racists toward each other and can it have the same affect as a white racist? Isn't racism one racial group's ability to have complete power and control (political, economic and social) over another racial group? An African might be able to emulate or mimic the racist behavior of white oppressors, but is it really racism they are practicing or merely discrimination?

    Z: The behavior you witness among Africans is not racism as it is defined.

    Let’s take a look at the definition of racism and ethnocentrism.

    rac·ism (n)

    1.The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
    2.Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
    This behavior is more defined as eth·no·cen·trism

    Ethnocentrism (n)

    1.Belief in the superiority of one's own ethnic group.
    2.Overriding concern with race.

    Notice how some of the same words are present within each definition.

    Ethnocentrism is different from racism, in its purest form, but carries within it the potential to manifest itself in similar ways to the racism experienced by AAs in America. Now throw in
    religious differences and what results are the conflicts that have plagued so many African countries for centuries. This phenomenon is quite puzzling to most AAs. They don’t understand it.

    You said…Can a white person be racist against another white person?

    Z: Yes. Think about the ethnic conflicts in Europe.

    You said…I'm not sure where you want this discussion to lead but with more direction from you, I'm sure we can debate this for a while.

    Z: Two heads or more are always better than one.

    The question was just a teaser to spark discussion...as it is beginning to.
     
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