Egypt : Can Budge Be Trusted ?

I-khan said:
I agree with all of the above..but I would also like to add this in.

In terms of do re-search (ie to search again) and reading the works of different scholars ('black'/afrikan or 'white'/european or otherwise) I would suggest that we do not take their word as the gospel truth and such because of a few reasons being that:

1)One of the reasons they let their works be known is because they want other people to know and to become interested to come to their own conclusions.


2)They themselves are people so they may find something they do not like and will omit it, OR, they can actually impede the progress of a particular movement/organization b/c of who they are really working for (like W.E.B. Dubois did with the pan-afrikan congress:http://www.destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43492)

I say just take his data for what it is worth....just data...and let us see what we can draw from it besides what he wants to show us.

Brother, in all respect, I conduct my own research and to not take ANYONE'S word as the "gospel truth"!

Furthermore, it is suggested that the work of Budge be rejected because of his racial background, that is to say because he was a "white person".

Is it true that he was given access to the same material that others such as DuBois and Martin Delany or Noble Drew Ali had but somehow because of his racial makeup others were denied this same opportunity?

Sorry. I believe elsewise considering that Budge, Massey and many "theosophists" did not merely come across this material by excavation or happenstance. Much of this "knowledge" had been passed down over generations among African "secret societies" who GAVE EUROPEANS ACCESS!!

Much of the "knowledge" concerning kemet was available at Al Azhar, Sankore and the library/museums in al-Andulis prior to 1492. Writers such as Ibn Khaldun extensively wrote using the ancient mathematical knowledge learned in Kemet which passed from Alexandria to Sankore in Timbuctu.

Personally, I take Elijah Muhammad's word over Budge's but how many have even rejected the Messenger's notion of the ASIATIC BLACK MAN and "Yakub's History"???
 
Destee said:
What does living or dead have to do with trusting someone's work? If he were alive, you'd trust him?

I'll take the subjective bias of a Black historian, over a white historian's racial, religious, and ideological bias any day.

Perhaps the reason why there aren't any Black/African researchers who have written more on the subject than he has, is because he was given access first, many years before they granted us titles like African/Black Researcher Anthropologist.

In addition, few of us have had access to our own Ancestor's tombs, prior to their pillaging, plundering, and stealing.

At this point, we don't have a lot of choice, regarding accepting what they present as our Ancestor's whole truth.

:heart:

Destee

Sister Destee,

In all respect, I have extensively read Budge's works.....two volumes on Gods of the Egyptians, two volumes entitles "Osiris", his work on "Egyptian Magic", his translation on Hieroglyphics and compared those findings with various works by Gerald Massey, W.E.B. Dubois and Cheikh anta Diop. Thus, while I trust very few people, if Budge were alive I would "trust" some of his findings unless I found a creditable African historian to discredit his work and to date I have not found one.

Budge's work take hours of reading and decoding and the easiest thing to do is dismiss what one may not understand or comprehend.

Point me into another direction and I will look elsewhere but to simply dismiss based on the man's ethnicity I shall not do. I was not instructed to do so as many of the books within my library/personal collection were handed to me by forefathers who themselves found some merit it Budge's works and this includes the Black historian J.A. Rogers.

Peace...
 
omowalejabali said:
Sister Destee,

In all respect, I have extensively read Budge's works.....two volumes on Gods of the Egyptians, two volumes entitles "Osiris", his work on "Egyptian Magic", his translation on Hieroglyphics and compared those findings with various works by Gerald Massey, W.E.B. Dubois and Cheikh anta Diop. Thus, while I trust very few people, if Budge were alive I would "trust" some of his findings unless I found a creditable African historian to discredit his work and to date I have not found one.

Budge's work take hours of reading and decoding and the easiest thing to do is dismiss what one may not understand or comprehend.

Point me into another direction and I will look elsewhere but to simply dismiss based on the man's ethnicity I shall not do. I was not instructed to do so as many of the books within my library/personal collection were handed to me by forefathers who themselves found some merit it Budge's works and this includes the Black historian J.A. Rogers.

Peace...

Brother Omowale ... why does the trust change, based on him being alive or dead? I don't understand that part.

I have not read any of his work extensively, and am just now being introduced to him. While my questions may seem elementary or troublesome, i think they're valid, given the history we know of these people. I'm sure they were much more openly corrupt to us, during those days, than they are even now. We know that even with television, and the first images depicting Africa and Africans being presented to us ... and they had the truth ... they chose to distort our people's image. They continue to do this right now.

To think that they would go into an African tomb, and bring back to us every single piece of truth and knowledge they were able to gleen from it, never distorting or deleting any of it, is foolish in my opinion. This is not to suggest that there is no good that can be learned from what they present, or that we should totally dismiss them ... i never said that.

In these discussions regarding Spirituality / Religion, much has been said about white people giving us the Bible and Christianity, and my main point here, is that they are giving us this too. What's the difference?

Most of the knowledge (information) we possess, comes from them, yet we wonder why we remain in the collective poor condition that we do. I think there's a clue in all of this.

:heart:

Destee
 
i agree

Destee said:
Brother Omowale ... why does the trust change, based on him being alive or dead? I don't understand that part.

I have not read any of his work extensively, and am just now being introduced to him. While my questions may seem elementary or troublesome, i think they're valid, given the history we know of these people. I'm sure they were much more openly corrupt to us, during those days, than they are even now. We know that even with television, and the first images depicting Africa and Africans being presented to us ... and they had the truth ... they chose to distort our people's image. They continue to do this right now.

To think that they would go into an African tomb, and bring back to us every single piece of truth and knowledge they were able to gleen from it, never distorting or deleting any of it, is foolish in my opinion. This is not to suggest that there is no good that can be learned from what they present, or that we should totally dismiss them ... i never said that.

In these discussions regarding Spirituality / Religion, much has been said about white people giving us the Bible and Christianity, and my main point here, is that they are giving us this too. What's the difference?

Most of the knowledge (information) we possess, comes from them, yet we wonder why we remain in the collective poor condition that we do. I think there's a clue in all of this.

:heart:

Destee

that is why we must continue to embrace and digest material produced by our own. while the subject matter may have errors because all schloars of history are guessing at best we donot have to deal with bias summations produced by the jealous white man.
 
Destee said:
Brother Omowale ... why does the trust change, based on him being alive or dead? I don't understand that part.

I have not read any of his work extensively, and am just now being introduced to him. While my questions may seem elementary or troublesome, i think they're valid, given the history we know of these people. I'm sure they were much more openly corrupt to us, during those days, than they are even now. We know that even with television, and the first images depicting Africa and Africans being presented to us ... and they had the truth ... they chose to distort our people's image. They continue to do this right now.

To think that they would go into an African tomb, and bring back to us every single piece of truth and knowledge they were able to gleen from it, never distorting or deleting any of it, is foolish in my opinion. This is not to suggest that there is no good that can be learned from what they present, or that we should totally dismiss them ... i never said that.

In these discussions regarding Spirituality / Religion, much has been said about white people giving us the Bible and Christianity, and my main point here, is that they are giving us this too. What's the difference?

Most of the knowledge (information) we possess, comes from them, yet we wonder why we remain in the collective poor condition that we do. I think there's a clue in all of this.

:heart:

Destee

In all respect, I do not wish to debate the point. While I may not trust Budge, the individual, this does not mean that I have reason to dis-trust SOME of his historical research, particularly if other African historians such as DuBois and Diop did not find error in his works. Both men, did in fact, build upon some of his findings.

Personally, I am not concerned with white people "distorting our image". I am more concerned with Black people subjectively distorting the truth and romanticizing African history, relegating fact to fiction and mythology and failing to view African history with the objectivity necessary to learn from that history and correct present errors which inhibit our collective advancement.

Sister Destee, you openly have stated that you have "not read any of his work extensively". However, I can make no such claim as not openly have I read his works extensively but have combined this research with my own family and geneaological research, building upon the works on Elders in my family who have passed to me works by Budge, Manly Hall, Gerald Massey and H.P. Blavatsky. I have learned in this process to read between the lines and have developed the power of discernment to determine what is credible and what is not.

And because of my "upbrining" I am also keenly aware that just because an author is "Black" does not necessarily mean that their work is credible.

Peace....
 

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