Black Spirituality Religion : Brother MP: Our conversation continued....

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by Dual Karnayn, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Dual Karnayn

    Dual Karnayn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    From this thread:
    http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11293&page=13




    Music Producer

    Well as I said earlier Muslims believe that the Koran are the words OF GOD, whether they are delivered directly by Him, by a Prophet, by the angel Gabriel, or by falling off a book shelf and into your lap.

    But since you believe that the Koran is Gabriel's words, are you suggesting that God would instuct one of His most loyal angels (Gabriel) to LIE on His behalf just to test us?




    Yes, infact it's near the beginning of the Koran that God announces HImself speaking.

    I don't have time to name all of the verses but I'll give you that particular verse again:

    "I, Allah, am the best Knower. This Book (Koran), there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who keep their duty." Surah 2

    So God is not only speaking, but recommending the ENTIRE book for you just incase you question whether or not the rest of it came from him. :rolling:




    To say you know EXACTLY what the Koran is is a pretty bold statement, but I'm in no position to question your knoweldge so all I can say is...I'm amazed.

    But I know of no Muslims who believe Jesus is God.





    Actually, the Koran ITSELF says that it's also from God and not just Gabriel.

    In Surah 27:6 we read:

    "And most surely you are made to receive the Quran from the Wise, the Knowing God."

    As I said before, GOD is the source of it whether it's delivered by God Himself, Gabriel, a Prophet, or me to you.

    Just like I write you a letter, the postman may deliver it but I'm the source.







    IF Gabriel says something in direct conflict.


    If "if" were a fifth...most of us would be drunk....lol.

    The question should be, DID Gabriel say something contradictory to the word of God?



    I agree.





    I can't speak for others, but you'll find no disagreements from ME on giving God the absolute authority in speech and ministry.
    He's the Boss.




    You said the Old Testament AND the Holy Scriptures.

    "And" implies that you either believe that the Old Testament is not holy and is set apart from THEE Holy Scriptures....
    Or you believe that there are OTHER Holy Scriptures besides the Old Testament.

    Could you please clarify.

    And if you meant the latter, do you include the Koran as these "other" holy scriptures?





    I agree that God gives us a CHOICE to do right and wrong.
    What I'm speaking of are actual contradictions, where the Bible says one thing....then turns around and says the total opposite.


    For example

    In Exodus 20:4 we read:

    "You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; "


    But in Numbers 21: 8 we read:

    "And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live"

    So AFTER commanding Moses and the Children of Israel NOT to make any images, he commands them to make an image of a brass serpent so that they would be healed.
    He also instructed them to make statues of Cherubim to place on the ark and Cherubim are heavenly creatures.


    But are these not clear contradicting commandments given even in the Old Testament?
     
  2. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Yes, I absolutely believe that. As you can see in this verse….

    1Kgs:22:22: And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

    1Kgs:22:23: Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

    1Sam:16:14: But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

    As you can see our ancestors had a clear and precise understanding that GOD alone commands and controls Evil. Then we also have this verse as a clear Teaching, Theology, Philosophy and Ministry from the Breath of GOD Himself.

    Isa:45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    I understand that we have been taught by Heathens / Gentiles that GOD does no evil but this is only a brain washing tactic to cause us to reject the One True GOD of the Old Testament. As I said, there is a big difference in what people believe and what the Bible actually says. A True GOD must be able to do ALL things good and evil in order to insure the Greater Good. A god that is incapable of chastising, correcting, inducing a moral standard and judging is useless and will not survive and is most likely an invention of man.

    Mk:9:7: And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

    The LORD is proving us through other Hosts of Heaven. GOD Teaches and Ministers in the Old Testament an Indoctrination. After HE Teaches HE then test and proves our ability to adhere. This is the only True Covenant with GOD and ALL people.

    Ex:19:5: Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

    Gabriel is not the Voice of GOD. Jesus is not the Voice of GOD. The Apostles are not the Voice of GOD and Mohamed is not the Voice of GOD. The Voice of GOD is in the format of GOD Himself Speaking the Words with HIS own Breath directly to you the reader. GOD is proving and testing us because HE is looking for the purist worshippers and people that believe only in HIM so that HE can build a Nation in which HE will never ever have to destroy ever again. This can only be done through pure hearted Love of GOD.

    Mk:9:7: And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

    Same thing isn’t it?
    What you have to determine in order to understand this is the Will of GOD. Once we broke the Covenant and rejected GOD, this became HIS Will.

    Deut:4:28: And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

    Deut:28:36: The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.

    Deut:28:64: And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

    The Old Testament ends with the Covenant broke thus those passages must be an absolute reality and condition of the descendants of Israel and Judah, if you absolutely believe in the Word of GOD. Thus gods of wood and stone are ALL of the religions that is not Taught, Induced and Ministered by GOD Himself with HIS own Breath.

    I will continue in my next post…..
     
  3. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    This is my reasoning:
    We would all agree that the GOD of the Old Testament is the Supreme Being, correct?
    Thus HIS Specific Doctrine, Teachings, Philosophy and Religion would have to be the Supreme Doctrine, the Supreme Teachings, the Supreme Philosophy and the Supreme Religion. Through the laws of nature their can only be One Supreme. Thus any other doctrine, teachings, philosophies and religion only exist to contend with the Supreme. None Supreme religions only exist for those that reject the Supreme.

    Just as Servants of Jesus have made the move to infiltrate Judaism they are also making the same move to infiltrate Islam. In the Jewish infiltration it is called Messianic Jews. Soon you will start seeing Messianic Muslims. Servants of Jesus will eventually contend with all religions to replace GOD with Jesus, it is their Nature. There are Muslim sects that believe Jesus was the Son of GOD regardless of what the book says.
    The same teachings are taught about the New Testament also. And this is what I present when they say that,

    Isa:45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    That means GOD is also the Source of doctrines formed by Lucifer, the Nefilim or any other Host of Heaven. The only way the reader can distinguish is to only adhere to what is being Spoken by GOD Himself with HIS own Breath, those are the only Words GOD can be held accountable for. Any thing else and it is of your own free will to follow it and put it above or equal to the Specific Words and Sayings of GOD.

    The format is GOD doesn’t use a postman when HE wants to communicate something to you. HE will tell you Himself, in HIS own Breath.
    Absolutely Gabriel did. Gabriel’s usage of the word “we” is very disturbing. And you yourself said the Koran contradicts the Old Testament. These are not contradictions they are weapons of those that reject GOD and desire to contend with the Supreme Doctrine.
    So let’s try this again…….

    Isa:44:24: Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    Col:1:16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Qaf: [50.38] And certainly We created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods and there touched Us not any fatigue.

    We have three different views as to Creation. Which one do you believe?
    The Holy Scriptures is the Jewish point of view of the Word of GOD. The Old Testament is the Servants of Jesus point of view of the Word of GOD; the older the translation of both these books the better. A study of GOD goes beyond reading one point of view. There is a side of light and there is a side of dark, in studying GOD you must explore both in order to see the Greatness of the LORD.

    I conceder any Scripture Holy if it was written in the days when humans feared, respected and loved GOD and the words are decreed as “Thus saith the LORD” or “The LORD said unto me” or shows GOD Himself Speaking in First Person point of view. The particular book it is in makes no difference.
    Idols curved or graven images are being viewed as things to be worshiped and praised, false religions. We can not view that passage as a total ban on art and that’s the way you are viewing it in order to make a case against it.
    The Brazen Serpent was something not to be praised or worshiped but was to be used as a means of Salvation to save Israel from a chastisement placed upon them for sin. It is also used for a later teaching in showing that Israel and Judah started mistakenly worshiping the Brazen Serpent as a god of Salvation and it was destroyed by a Messiah in order to correct Israel and Judah’s misguided perception of GOD. These teaching are expounded upon in Jesus.

    Jn:3:14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    It reveals that Jesus / Son of Man is a false messiah and religion that must be destroyed by a True Messiah. The history of the Brazen Serpent is being played out once more in the lives of the descendents of the Children of Israel. Only this time it is not a Brazen Serpent but a false messiah. The purpose of the Brazen Serpent goes beyond the Old Doctrine.

    Your questioning is worded wrong…..
    It should be stated as so…….

    So AFTER commanding Moses and the Children of Israel NOT to make any gods, he commands them to make an image of a brass serpent so that they would be healed.

    You are wording your question out of harmony with the meaning of the verse in order to place it in your favor to have cause to say it is a contradiction. When the term idol or graven image is correctly integrated into the verse as gods or false religions we see that it is not a contradiction. Our ancestors were notorious for creating and worshiping gods, we naturally believe in magic, the super natural and spirituality. GOD found one of us and basically said, “Hey I can work with this”.
     
  4. Dual Karnayn

    Dual Karnayn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Music Producer

    Ok, so you believe God purposely instructed Gabriel to lie in order to test us.

    But the problem with that theory is God doesn't lie....

    Number 23:19

    "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of
    man, that he should repent"




    Hebrews 6:18

    "so that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge might be strongly encouraged to hold fast to the hope that lies before us."


    ...so why would He instruct His servants to?


    1 Cor.14:33 says: "God is not the author of confusion"

    So it's hard to believe that He would try to deceive man or confuse us by instructing one of His angels to lie and tempt us.








    I understand.

    Perhaps this is just one more contradiction that is found in the Bible.

    As you pointed out, Isaiah 45:7 says:

    "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."


    However Psalms 5:4 says:

    "For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You."

    So this appears to be another contradition....maybe not.





    I agree to a point.

    I believe none of those people and angel you mentioned are the voice of God, nor do I believe any WORDS are the voice of God either.

    However I DO believe the words of God are indeed His words regardless of who delivers them.
    His actual voice isn't needed for the words to be valid, after all how many people actually hear an auditory voice while reading the Bible or Koran?



    But would God who is not the author of confusion employ deception to achieve this objective?

    You didn't say God ALLOWED deception, you suggested that God purposely instructed Gabriel and others to give other messages in order to deceive us and ultimately test our will.

    Am I correct?





    To be totally honest, I'm not sure yet.

    I believe the God that Moses and the Children of Israel worshipped was the Supreme Being but because of the questionable authorship of the Old Testament with names like YHWH and Adoni and Baal being used in the original translation, I'll have to step back and do a little more research.



    Who are the Servants of Jesus?

    I believe some servants of Jesus turned Muslim, but why would they try to "infiltrate" Judaism if most of them were originally Jews themselves?



    I haven't met any, but I'll take your word for it.

    There are ARABS who believe Jesus was/is the Son of God, but I haven't met Muslims who believed this.





    Actually.

    The New Testament clearly states:

    The Gospel ACCORDING TO Matthew

    The Gospel ACCORDING TO Mark

    The Gospel ACCORDING TO Luke

    The Gospel ACCORDING TO John

    Unlike the Koran, they don't claim to be from God but from these authors who are relating the story to you.


    The epistles OF Paul are admittingly the letters of the apostle Paul to the various churches around Europe and Asia.

    They're ABOUT God and Christ, but they never claim to be the direct words OF God.




    Hmmm......

    Well if you believe that, they you shouldn't read ANY BOOK that was authored by or even printed by man.
    You should only accept the DIRECT voice of God speaking to you either in an auditory tone or in a dream.

    You can't use the Old Testament because it's not the words of God but a printed edition of a compilation of MAN-u-scripts scripted by man.





    But in

    Genesis 1:26 did not God say:

    "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."



    Genesis 3:22

    Then the LORD God said: "See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and what is bad!"


    Genesis 11: 6-7

    Then the LORD said: "If now, while they are one people, all speaking the same language, they have started to do this, nothing will later stop them from doing whatever they presume to do.
    Let us then go down and there confuse their language, so that one will not understand what another says."


    God is only one, so who is "us" and "our" the Old Testament is speaking of?





    I believe the latter.

    I don't believe the Supreme Being can get tired, do you?




    So what do you believe to be the Holy Scriptures besides the Old Testament?




    Then I'll take it that you consider the Koran Holy Scripture and won't press the point any further.




    But God COMMANDED Moses not to carve or make any idols or images.

    He didn't give any stipulations or exceptions.
    The words are plain to NOT do it.



    I agree.
    But the fact remains that God didn't just instruct them not to carve or shape any objects for worship.
    According to Exodus:20 He instructed them to carve or shape no images PERIOD for whatever reason.



    Here's another more original translation of that verse:

    Exodus 20:4

    "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."


    This is clearly an instruction to Moses and the Children of Israel not to make any graven images OR likenesses of anything in Heaven, Earth, or the sea....which includes snakes.

    That's what I mean by a clear contradiction.

    Whether they worship or praise that idol or image isn't the point, the point is they were first commanded NOT to make it...then they were commanded TO make it.
     
  5. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Yes, GOD purposely gave Gabriel information that is contradictory to HIS Specific Teachings. Not all of the information but small bits and peaces. The only way to be aware of the misinformation is to have a strong grasp on what GOD Himself has Spoken and not to reject that.

    GOD can not lie to us directly. But HE can send another Host of Heaven to perpetuate a lie. The only way to understand it is a lie is to be rooted in the Word of GOD because that Host will not say, “Thus saith the LORD”, or “The LORD said unto me” or show GOD Himself Speaking in First Person point of view. This is usually covered through saying “the information is from the Lord” or it will be something like “HE saith” or it will use a Host of Heaven to replace GOD, thus it becomes our error in confusing that Host as being GOD.

    Deut:13:3: Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

    GOD sends Hosts of Heaven to accomplish and fulfill that passage. Otherwise show me a passage in the Old Testament in which GOD Himself Speaks directly to a human and it turns out to be a lie.
    GOD is not the author of confusion, man is.
    During school when your teacher or professor gave you a test did you accuse that teacher or professor of spreading confusion or lies? Of curse you did not, so why do you accuse GOD of it when HE does the same thing? GOD out right told you HE was going to test or prove your Love for HIM; HE tries the reins of the heart. What, did you thank HE was lying when HE told you that?
    You continue to be un-freed from restrictions of men. Who is informing you of Isa 45:7?
    Now, who is informing you of Ps 5:4? You must learn to stop letting the words of men and other Host of Heaven guide your perception of GOD. GOD has HIS own Doctrine. Due to the fact that it is depicted as GOD Himself Teaching you Isa 45:7, you are literally telling GOD HE is wrong about the workings of HIS own Kingdom and you are telling HIM the writer of Ps 5:4 has a better understanding of GODs Kingdom than GOD. Rejection of GOD is the beginning of all Evil.
    You don’t need to hear an auditory voice. As you are reading this to yourself, describe the voice you hear? You can’t because it is not auditory to be described. Thus how are you perceiving these words?

    Deu 30:
    10: If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
    11: For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
    12: It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
    13: Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
    14: But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
    15: See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

    I will continue once I get home from work…….
     
  6. Dual Karnayn

    Dual Karnayn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    MP

    I'll answer your conplete response after you continue, but I want to quickly touch on a few points you raised in your last posts.


    First of all you said:
    During school when your teacher or professor gave you a test did you accuse that teacher or professor of spreading confusion or lies? Of curse you did not, so why do you accuse GOD of it when HE does the same thing?


    Perhaps you didn't read where I said earlier that God does not lie, so I'll post it again for you:




    Next, you said:

    Well for a start, according to Genesis 3: 16-17:
    God told Adam " Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat.
    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."




    But according to Genesis 5:3-5:
    " And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years and became the father of a son in his own likeness, resembling himself; and called his name Seth; And the days of Adam after he had become the father of Seth were eight hundred years and he had sons and daughters; And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died."


    So even after Adam ate the fruit he lived atleast another 800 years rather than dying THAT DAY.

    Wouldn't you consider that a lie told by the "God" of the Old Testament?
     
  7. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    You are assuming GOD was referring to instant death; HE was not. From the time Adam eat of the tree he starting growing old, his body started dissolving. Before he eight of the tree Adam knew nothing of death, not even aging. Now man is only continued through offspring’s and we no longer live forever as individuals. GOD did not tell a lie to Adam, Adam started dying that day.
     
  8. Dual Karnayn

    Dual Karnayn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I'm not "assuming" what God was referring to.
    I was plainly reading what the "God" of the Old Testament said when he was talking to Adam.

    He told Adam he would die THAT DAY, not "begin the process" of dying that would take nearly 900 years.



    If somebody came to you and told you your best friend died THAT DAY, you wouldn't rush to buy tickets for Paris next week so you two can spend some quality time together before he passes.

    No sir, you'd begin the grieving process immediately because you know his life didn't extend pass that very day.
     
  9. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    No, that is not correct. When a professor or teacher gives to a test or quiz is that teacher deceiving you?
    Furthermore GOD has nothing to do with ones own willful desire to reject HIS Words for another. We only deceive ourselves when we start rejecting GOD.
    That very concept denounces GOD. You are saying GOD has not the ability to control what is written in HIS Specific Words. The evidence that GOD does control what is presented in HIS Words is the miracle that thousands upon thousands of books have been written about GOD but over all those books and over all that time the Decree of GOD Himself Speaking in HIS own Breath seems controlled. If it was not controlled, due to the age of the Old Testament the Decree should naturally be in abundance and misused but a simple quest for the Decree shows it not in abundance nor is it misused. That alone is imposable.
    You know who Servants of Jesus are. They a people that believe Jesus is GOD, they are people that believe Jesus is the Messiah, they are people who place the New Testament above the Old Testament, they are people that believe Jesus canceled the LAW and believe he died for all sin of all people.

    Messianic Judaism is repackaged Service to Jesus. Most of the members on this web page are simply repackaging Service to Jesus in away it appeals more to the rebellious African American, which will eventually lead to some form of Islamic Service to Jesus.
    The nature of the New Testament is to replace GOD in every form. All of the cultures that were encounter during exploration of earth by Northern Nations, which is now the European Union, had a religion. They were all replaced with some form of Jesus worship, that move continues even today.
    I have, I have even argued with them. I know what they are doing, I can see it. Christianity is one of the fastest growing religions in China, now how do you suppose that is occurring. We already have members on this very board showing Jesus as having knowledge of multiple religions; eventually they work towards replacing that religion with the New Testament a book that teaches one to be against the GOD and people of the Old Testament. Even today it is already to the point that if you ask some Muslims what say they of Jesus, they will not answer.
    I know, but this is refuted with their Trinity Theory thus in their eyes it has been made the direct word of GOD.
    That would be Entities referred to as Sons of GOD.
    Yes, we get tired don’t we? Where do you thank we get the trait from? But understand it might take thousands of years for GOD to get tired. In the Old Testament HE refers to it as growing weary.

    Isa:1:14: Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

    Isa:7:13: And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?

    Jer:15:6: Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.

    Teach yourself to see GOD the way GOD presents GOD, not the way you want HIM to be. GOD must have a point of weariness for if not HE would accept sin forever.
    I continue to search and look but so far I have found the Decree of GOD Himself Speaking With HIS own Breath, limited.
    Only the point as to where GOD Himself is depicted as Speaking with HIS own Breath. Other than that it is words of Gabriel, not GOD. I will press the point if you attempt to use it to prove a Specific saying of GOD to be wrong. In the hierarchy Gabriel is not more intelligent than GOD, neither is Mohamed, neither is Jesus, neither are the Apostles.
    Idols and images are referring to gods and false religions.
    You are intentionally miss reading that in order to make case against GOD. Your perception is out of harmony with the entire doctrine as to what graven images were used for.
     
  10. Dual Karnayn

    Dual Karnayn Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Do you accept the verse warning Adam that he would die THAT DAY as a lie?
     
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