Pets / Animals : Black the Rottweiler is a killer

[Destee]

@ogoun ... I wanted to share too, the breeder I got Black from, is no longer in the business. She (and her husband) were up in age already, had been doing it for years, but someone poisoned her dogs.

They live in a very remote location, almost all by themselves, down in a hollow - and then you come up on their home and kennel. I met Black's Mom, Dad, Sisters & Brothers along with lots of other Rottweilers, generations of them. A beautiful place, beautiful people.

She said someone threw a deer out on her property, and when she realized her dogs had ate some of it, took them to the vet, and lost a few. She was sad and disheartened and decided to close up shop.

Yes, pet owners have to be careful about what they eat, training them not to eat randomly.

I've never even tested Black on this, but given he is a dog, he'll probably eat a burger if you throw it over the fence. He probably does not even have to see who threw it ... *sigh*



Destee

 

[ogoun]

Been thinking about it for a bit...........trying to find how to talk about dogs without getting too far into the weeds about the different drives that all dogs exhibit how those drives manifest themselves and how they over lap with each other and when just one will over ride all the others. Which is really the nuts and bolts, in manner of speaking, of the training and working with dogs.
Then I even went through a mood where I even wanted to wax poetic in purple prose of the sentient essence of the dog in his own right. Of how they were a true gift from the gods to guide us and facilitate our seeing of this world and into the next rather than just another tool or toy to be used at our whim and then put away until the next time the fancy hits.
But nah. None of that quite seemed to get to the gist of your questions/ing.

So............leaving aside the cat ( who like horses and dogs are also two well renown enemies of each other)
let's start at the chicken (food).
Not if or that Black saw the chicken as food, but that the bird would have triggered his basic instinct of his prey/play drive. The chase is fun! Like we don't how it went down because you didn't see it but imagine if the bird flies over the fence lands in the yard, Black sees it thinks huh? what is that? Well I'll just go over and check this thing out. Bird freaks! start making noise running and flapping wings........Black's prey drive kicks in and now it's a race...Fun and games!!!!!!!!!
Ya see, it perhaps had nothing to do with territorial/possession or aggression. Because all but the most flat dogs unless they are otherwise taught will chase the chickens. Ahem, for the dog that is, it's fun!!!!! and taps into a primordial instinct. i.e. the prey/play. (there play is tacked on because we use the base prey drive as play when teaching like if we were to, say teach the dog to fetch the ball, it's the chase that locks the dog into the game)(when you can't get the ball back that is possession/territory)
(I lump territory and possession together back there because though they are distinctive from each other I think they stem from and are part and parcel of the same drive.)

Nightmares..........
First of all, Black is not going to see the child as a chicken! Though say, if the child became scared and turned to run it may well trigger his prey/play drive and he may inadvertently hurt the them in the chase game through no real fault of his own. Or say if the child came running towards him arms waving dogie dogie dogie he 'could' perceive them a threat putting him into his fight or flight drive. And given his breed I suggest flight would be the last thing he'd consider especially on his own territory. And then that depends on what Black perceives as a threat.
Has Black ever been around or introduced to children? If he has, he may just go 'oh god, I got to put up with being molested again' because he'll realize they are no real threat to him. Dogs just like people know the difference between a child and an adult. And for the dog it isn't just the size or the vocabulary but the smell. Children just smell different. Emmm something about the odor of innocence. (I remember reading once)

Ugh, time has gotten away from me. If I'm to go on it'll have to be at a later time.

Give Black a scratch around his ears for me.
Ogoun

 

[Destee]

Been thinking about it for a bit...........trying to find how to talk about dogs without getting too far into the weeds about the different drives that all dogs exhibit how those drives manifest themselves and how they over lap with each other and when just one will over ride all the others. Which is really the nuts and bolts, in manner of speaking, of the training and working with dogs.

Then I even went through a mood where I even wanted to wax poetic in purple prose of the sentient essence of the dog in his own right. Of how they were a true gift from the gods to guide us and facilitate our seeing of this world and into the next rather than just another tool or toy to be used at our whim and then put away until the next time the fancy hits.
But nah. None of that quite seemed to get to the gist of your questions/ing.

I appreciate the thought you have put into this for me, thank you very much. You can't get too far into the weeds for me.

Your waxing poetic is oh so beautful ...

So............leaving aside the cat ( who like horses and dogs are also two well renown enemies of each other)
let's start at the chicken (food).
Not if or that Black saw the chicken as food, but that the bird would have triggered his basic instinct of his prey/play drive. The chase is fun! Like we don't how it went down because you didn't see it but imagine if the bird flies over the fence lands in the yard, Black sees it thinks huh? what is that? Well I'll just go over and check this thing out. Bird freaks! start making noise running and flapping wings........Black's prey drive kicks in and now it's a race...Fun and games!!!!!!!!!

Ya see, it perhaps had nothing to do with territorial/possession or aggression. Because all but the most flat dogs unless they are otherwise taught will chase the chickens. Ahem, for the dog that is, it's fun!!!!! and taps into a primordial instinct. i.e. the prey/play. (there play is tacked on because we use the base prey drive as play when teaching like if we were to, say teach the dog to fetch the ball, it's the chase that locks the dog into the game)(when you can't get the ball back that is possession/territory)
(I lump territory and possession together back there because though they are distinctive from each other I think they stem from and are part and parcel of the same drive.)

Yes, that is what I think it was. The chicken kept moving, so he kept going after it. He has a toy like that, it moves away from him and it is his favorite. He was probably as sad as the chicken, that it stopped moving.

Black will go and get the toy and bring it to me and drop it. He will not eat until I say. He will stop eating if I say. I've always been able to put my hand in his bowl during feeding. I useta feed him by hand. I don't think he'll do this for everyone, but he does for me.

Yes, I'm with you on this.

Nightmares..........
First of all, Black is not going to see the child as a chicken! Though say, if the child became scared and turned to run it may well trigger his prey/play drive and he may inadvertently hurt the them in the chase game through no real fault of his own. Or say if the child came running towards him arms waving dogie dogie dogie he 'could' perceive them a threat putting him into his fight or flight drive. And given his breed I suggest flight would be the last thing he'd consider especially on his own territory. And then that depends on what Black perceives as a threat.
Has Black ever been around or introduced to children? If he has, he may just go 'oh god, I got to put up with being molested again' because he'll realize they are no real threat to him. Dogs just like people know the difference between a child and an adult. And for the dog it isn't just the size or the vocabulary but the smell. Children just smell different. Emmm something about the odor of innocence. (I remember reading once)

No, he has not been around children. He lives a solitary life with his Momma ... He does good at the vet, they love him. He gets real excited going there. He's good in the car, no issues. But he is not around a lot of people. He does good on walks, if I see others coming toward us, I cross to the other side and pull him closer to me. I'm aware of the breed I have. My son had a Rott previously. His name was Pimp, but he never killed a chicken. I'd imagine if it came into the yard though, the results would be similar.

No, children are not running toward him or waving their arms around him. I just have to make sure that never happens.

Ugh, time has gotten away from me. If I'm to go on it'll have to be at a later time.

Give Black a scratch around his ears for me.
Ogoun

Thank you so much for sharing with me!

I'm glad to come away knowing there is nothing wrong with Black. It really was a game for him. I'll tighten up security on him to be sure there are no nightmares.

Much Much Love and Peace.



Destee

 

[ogoun]

Yes, that is what I think it was. The chicken kept moving, so he kept going after it. He has a toy like that, it moves away from him and it is his favorite. He was probably as sad as the chicken, that it stopped moving.

LOL......he was probably thinking ooh boy! will ya get some more batteries for my toy mom?

Black will go and get the toy and bring it to me and drop it. He will not eat until I say. He will stop eating if I say. I've always been able to put my hand in his bowl during feeding. I useta feed him by hand. I don't think he'll do this for everyone, but he does for me.

Feeding of the dog/s fall into a couple different camps.
I've heard plenty of handlers that suggest your strategy.
My self I fall into the camp of once the dog is given his food it should be let alone and not bothered. The dog is already dependent on you for his food putting you into the alpha roll already, so there's no need to hassle him over his food dish once it's in front of him. Imo to do otherwise wounds the pack structure and can break down trust and bonding. i.e.. within the pack structure, the leader (alpha dog) never goes back after they've left the meal to reclaim what they've left until the the lower ranks have sated themselves and left the meal on their own. The only thing the alpha claims rights to is first dibs and desert isn't until everyone else is done eating; the alpha does not give and then take away.

But that's me.

No, he has not been around children. He lives a solitary life with his Momma ... He does good at the vet, they love him. He gets real excited going there. He's good in the car, no issues. But he is not around a lot of people. He does good on walks, if I see others coming toward us, I cross to the other side and pull him closer to me. I'm aware of the breed I have.

Thinking back, I can remember meeting only about a half dozen Rott's in my life. And though I've never tested their limits or the edges (if you will) every one I've met seemed to have a balanced and clear head about them. And I'd probably trust a Rotti further with meeting a child than I would with my present very sharp GSD. And I allow mine to meet children or any person when ever the occasion happens.
I think you've taken the wrong track with him by not allowing Black to meet and even be among or to walk among strangers. How is he to know they aren't all the enemy? You have to be careful when tightening that leash..........between your avoidance and the tightening your fear and nervousness signals down through the leash putting the dog on edge. That's how he reads it. All those 'people' types are your enemy and by extension his as well.

No, children are not running toward him or waving their arms around him. I just have to make sure that never happens.

All interactions between children and (any) dog should always be supervised both for the dog sake and the child's. ALWAYS.
I trust the child much less than the dog. The dog is predictable, eh eh not so the child's behavior.

 

[Destee]

LOL......he was probably thinking ooh boy! will ya get some more batteries for my toy mom?

Yes, I think you're right ...

Feeding of the dog/s fall into a couple different camps.
I've heard plenty of handlers that suggest your strategy.
My self I fall into the camp of once the dog is given his food it should be let alone and not bothered. The dog is already dependent on you for his food putting you into the alpha roll already, so there's no need to hassle him over his food dish once it's in front of him. Imo to do otherwise wounds the pack structure and can break down trust and bonding. i.e.. within the pack structure, the leader (alpha dog) never goes back after they've left the meal to reclaim what they've left until the the lower ranks have sated themselves and left the meal on their own. The only thing the alpha claims rights to is first dibs and desert isn't until everyone else is done eating; the alpha does not give and then take away.

But that's me.

I'm with you. I don't have to bother him often, after he's started eating, but if I do, I can. Our routine is for me to feed him, and then I go and give him fresh water. When I'm walking back past him after this, he stops and waits for me to pet him and say, "Good boy, eat your food." ... It's a part of our routine now. One day I walked on up the stairs past him, and he stood there looking at me, like "didn't you forget something?" So I went back and petted him on the head, said "Good boy, eat your food." and he went back to eating ... ... he's such a good boy!

Thinking back, I can remember meeting only about a half dozen Rott's in my life. And though I've never tested their limits or the edges (if you will) every one I've met seemed to have a balanced and clear head about them. And I'd probably trust a Rotti further with meeting a child than I would with my present very sharp GSD. And I allow mine to meet children or any person when ever the occasion happens.
I think you've taken the wrong track with him by not allowing Black to meet and even be among or to walk among strangers. How is he to know they aren't all the enemy? You have to be careful when tightening that leash..........between your avoidance and the tightening your fear and nervousness signals down through the leash putting the dog on edge. That's how he reads it. All those 'people' types are your enemy and by extension his as well.

German Shepherds are beautiful dogs. When I was a child, it was my favorite and what I thought I'd get, when I could get my own dog. Yeah, you're right again. I have probably done it all wrong. There are so many things that I know I've done wrong, so yes, add this to the list. I've often said, I wish I could start over. The thing is, I don't have a lot of children or people around me. I'd have to have it myself, in order to give it to him. It's just not a part of our life. I can see what you're saying too, about me tensing up on his leash. Whew. He probably feels all of my insecurities, and I do have some. I catch myself sometimes, feeling the wrong thing around him. Yep, what can you expect from the baby, when the momma is krae krae ...

All interactions between children and (any) dog should always be supervised both for the dog sake and the child's. ALWAYS.
I trust the child much less than the dog. The dog is predictable, eh eh not so the child's behavior.

Right. I'm with you. Any interaction he has with children, will be a massive fail on my part, as this is not our life. I'm thinking if he broke out or something, maybe then it could happen. He did break out once, when he was much younger, and went on the front porch waiting for me to notice. Oh gosh. I did panic, but he just waited on the front porch for me. I fortified the fence then, haven't had that issue again, but it would be something like that. He does not just happen upon children in his regular life, or them on him.

Thanks soooo much @ogoun!

I've not been around lately, like I want, but I am back!

Thanks for your love.

I was thinking, if I had to get rid of Black - who do you give a big, grown, swole, Rottie to?! There are probably not a lot of people willing to take on such a task. But I would surely ask you to take him, if we were closer in proximity. It would be important for me to know he is with someone that would love him

Love You!



Destee