Black People : Black Conservatives: Are you ready for this?

Discussion in 'Black People Open Forum' started by NNQueen, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    After reading this do you think Blacks will ever become unified and do you still want us to?

    ". . . The growth in ethnic minorities in this country (America) threatens the very existence of the Republican Party, and the presence of Black Conservatism is vital to its survival. The shadow of the Southern Strategy and radical right association of David Duke, and Pat Buchanan has most definitely reprieved the faces of most non-whites to the GOP. The Republican Party got a glimpse of the political future last fall when a larger than expected number of minority voter turnout helped the Democratic Party gain five congressional seats, and unseated two Republican governors in the deep south. Which brings us to why Black Conservatism is becoming more conservative in the post 1960s era.

    There is not anything new about the political philosophy of Black Conservatives. They merely repeat long-standing white conservative and neoconservative arguments. However, what is new in Black conservatives' analyses is that it is Black people developing an implicitly racist rationale for placing limits on social policies. The rational goes as follows:

    · Although lingering racism still exists, thanks to the victories of the civil rights struggles, racial discrimination is no longer a critical obstacle to Black progress. We can speak of a racist American past, but not of a racist contemporary America.

    · African American demands for equal opportunity made during the civil rights era now go too far in demanding equal outcomes. A non-discriminatory America does not ensure equal outcomes. Capitalism maximizes skill and talent and any differences among ethnic groups, or between genders, is a function of each group's particular strengths and weaknesses.

    · Today's problems of race relations and Black poverty cannot be remedied by government policy alone. The roots of today's problems are located first and foremost within African Americans: in our inability to successfully compete in a free market system, in the poor values and irresponsible and offensive behavior of poor Blacks, in our psychological hang-ups about group identity and past victimization, and/or in our failure to take full advantage of existing opportunities.

    The appropriate strategy for African Americans is one focusing on self -help. First, we need to de-emphasize racial identity and loyalty in favor of an American identity. Second, African Americans should compete on the basis of merit only. Third, we need to de-emphasize government programs and civil rights legislation in favor of racial self-help. Blacks need to focus on Black entrepreneurship, building and supporting Black business, particularly in poor Black neighborhoods. And, most important, the Black middle class needs to teach poor African Americans appropriate values and behavior.

    The Republican Party use to be known as the party of Lincoln. Now it is the party that wishes to irradiate the very principles that Lincoln began. Black Conservatives build on a philosophical foundation borrowed from Booker T. Washington, and incorporate self-help bromides of Black cultural nationalist rhetoric. The new Black Conservative can be viewed as the new racist culture. The origins of this nucleus of politicians (Black Conservatives), and the extent to which they advance or impede Black political life in America today. Dr. Deborah Toler, author of the article Black Conservatives states that, Black conservatives' work does not exhibit a sustained and systematic examination of conservative political philosophy and its potential usefulness for Black Americans. Nor do the Black conservatives, most of whom are trained social scientists, engage in credible social science research. They ignore reams of data contradicting their underlying assumptions and fail to produce reliable statistical evidence or to generate ethnographic research to support their positions (Dr. Deborah Toler, The Public Eye: Black Conservatives, September 1993). Black Conservatives are hindering the progress of African-Americans today. An excellent example would be the position of Nathan Glazer's 1975 book titled, Affirmative Action, Ethnic Inequality and Public Policy, which summarized white neoconservatives' objections to affirmative action: that, by the end of the 1960s, discrimination was no longer a major obstacle to minorities' access to employment, education and other social mobility mechanisms; affirmative action has not benefited the poor who need it most, but has primarily benefited middle class Blacks and other minorities; and affirmative action fuels white resentment against minorities.

    The Southern Strategy effect is wearing off. The ideals' of the old Confederacy is most definitely not the same ideals of the new majority. The shadows of Nixon's intolerance doctrine has damaged the image of the Republican Party. Using Black Conservatives who have little to no connection with the African-American community to capture some of the Black support away form the Democratic Party is an extremist tactic to keep the party alive. Compassionate Conservatism does not exist in this country, and the Blacks that belong to the Republican Party are there as tokens."

    Information retrieved from free cliff-notes...can you believe it? Read it for yourself and tell us what you think.

    http://www.free-cliffnotes.com/data/fd/pbk157.shtml
     
  2. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Thomas Sowell . . .speaking of Black conservatives

    "As a black man, I am offended when white people take the likes of Al Sharpton seriously -- or pretend to."

    "This is an age when people who are contributing nothing to society gain fame and fortune by denouncing those who are contributing something, because those who are contributing something are not doing so the way idle on-lookers would wish, or in a way that those ignorant of the process would consider right."

    "What is called an educated person is often someone who has had a dangerously superficial exposure to a wide spectrum of subjects."

    "What is the left to do when they find themselves running out of the poor? They must stretch the poor to make them last -- even if that requires stretching the truth."
     
  3. ZeroGravity

    ZeroGravity Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    We are not monolithic, never have been...never will be. No aspect of society is. imho.

    Should we be unified in religion? Should we all be of one faith?
    Should we be unified in politics? Should we all be of one party?
    Should we be unified in philosophy? Should we all think alike?
    Should we all want the same things...the same goals...is there only one way to acheive those goals?

    If someone is baptist, do you think they are, or should be, concerned about someone who is methodist, or should we focus on the faith we're affiliated with? Should we be concerned about black conservatives or should we stay focus on the direction of the party we're affiliated with?

    What is the philosophy of "unification" based on? Is there a segment of society that is?
     
  4. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    old_sd73, it's nice that you got all warm and fuzzy after reading my original post. Believe it or not, I recognize that we're not all the same in this community and I'm not afraid to raise any topic. It's clear that there are Black conservatives among us which leads to some great debates. So when you've settled down from your euphoric state, feel free to continue making your point(s). I'm sure others will rise to the challenge and engage you in some interesting conversation.

    ZG...you ask some very good questions and make a good point, we're not monolithic. But you know as well as I that "unity" is a word bantered about very often in our community, and like you, I've asked for some explanation as to what is meant by that.

    If we go by the dictionary definition of "unity" it would mean the following:

    u·ni·ty n. pl., u·ni·ties. 1. The state or quality of being one; singleness. 2. The state or quality of being in accord; harmony. 3. a. The combination or arrangement of parts into a whole; unification. b. A combination or union thus formed. 4. Singleness or constancy of purpose or action; continuity: "In an army you need unity of purpose".

    Now, used in the context that it's often used when we talk about Black people becoming unified, do you think that the various distinctions among us as you described, should matter?
     
  5. ZeroGravity

    ZeroGravity Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Who determines what "matters" in life? Each one of us will make that determination. I would like to believe that the "quality of life" we live would be the purpose of unification we seek, and our philosophical view of what we think that "quality" is or should be would be the deciding factor of how we go about seeking it. NNQueen you asked "...when we talk about Black people becoming unified, do you think that the various distinctions among us as you described, should matter?" I will have to defer back to a question I asked "what is the philosohy of "unification", among Black people, based on?

    Would you say that a baptist church is unified with a "Singleness or constancy of purpose or action"? (as one of the dictionary definition stated) Look at the makeup of the congregation...all walks of life exist there. Would it matter if the person sitting next to you in church is a conservative? a democrat? a doctor? a hooker? The continuity among the congretional "community" I would imagine is based on the belief of and getting closer to God. One of the dictionary definition alluded to "In an army you need unity of purpose"...the Army is a makeup again of all walks of life and differing philosophies, would it matter to you if the person next to you in the foxhole is a republican? an atheist? a catholic? The continuity among the Army "community" I would imagine is based on the belief of protecting the country.

    In the Black community you have a makeup of all walks of life and differing philosophies, should it matters to you if your neighbor is a black conservative if the continuity among the Black "community" is based on "the quality of life" we seek? Again, the "quality of life" reference is what I believe to be the unification, someone else might think differently as to what they think the continuity of the Black community is.

    I said all that to say this...we seem to be overly concerned about what others are doing. I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that a Black conservative is seeking the same things as a Black liberal, but their philosophical views of how to go about achieving those things are different. We were't united on how to go about getting civil rights, we had two dominant opposing mindsets which splittered the community. I'm of the belief that on both sides of the dominant mindsets there were Black republicans and Black democrats.
     
  6. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Wow...the passion in the responses so far is amazing! :jumping:

    sd...you obviously aren't able to address these types of topics or questions from an objective point of view so maybe you should follow your own advice and not respond, but I'm glad that you did. *lol*

    These questions I'm asking are merely to generate discussion, not start WWIII. :bazooka: I'm setting the questions up as a means to find out what people are thinking in terms of our differences, as we so often point out in the various threads here. What exactly is it that you find so personally upsetting that you feel the need to confess and attack, soul doctor? Maybe you need to learn to express your opinions without attacking the opinions of others and you might be taken more seriously.

    Zero...my question about "unity" is not challenging your opinion, even when I posted Webster's definition. I'm simply pointing to one aspect of our differences and asking whether this makes a difference in our ability to become unified and do we still want to...meaning, do our differences matter? Soul doctor seems to think that we never will because I'm raising the question in the fashion that I've chosen. But he and I seldom agree so this in fine, so far.

    This is good discussion though . . . keep sharing.

    Peace and breathe . . . :)
     
  7. ZeroGravity

    ZeroGravity Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Greetings Queen...I know that you were not challenging my opinion of the word "unity". I just offered my opinion to establish a baseline for my comments.

    Yes our differences matters, most definiately. Diversification does not mean that we are not or cannot be united. But I ask the question again..."what is the philosophy of "unification" among Black people based on? What would you say Black people would have to do to be seen as "unified" in our community? and in that vision, as Destee so eloquently illustrated in one of her threads, who would be excluded from the unification?
     
  8. happy69

    happy69 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Interesting and True Assessment.

    I don't call these kinds of people "Conservatives."
    These are just Black Racist....
    I can understand the Thesis of most Conservatism... I think that Most of African-Americans are "Conservative;" but stay away from it as an ideological label; because it is Mostly Racists who have taken it over... I love it when they say things like it was the Republicans who helped blacks and all that jazz...they just omit the fact that soon after, all those "Republicans" switched parties and became "Democrats!" So, WE didn't leave our so-called supporters behind--WE FOLLOWED them.

    Anyway, I found a very interesting commentary on one of the Leading, "Black When he can use it to hurt others/ Not Black when he is trying to "murder" African-Americans; Racist Dogs in the Country--- Ward Connerly. He is followed closely by the repugnant Jesse Lee Peterson; and then by the new "Our Gang"--Project 21. These are racists not Conservatives--Black Conservatives are a dime a dozen...and some have actually done some decent and good things for Our Communities and the people who inhabit them.

    http://www.blackcommentator.com/52/52_connerly.html
     
  9. NNQueen

    NNQueen going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Sister happy69 . . . your description of Ward Connerly is on point and if we don't do something to block his efforts to do away with everything in place that can benefit African Americans, we won't be sitting here discussing things that happened "back in the day" because those days will be back. There's a saying that his-story repeats itself. Is it inevitable and destined to be so for us too or can history be manipulated such that we can avoid a modern day "Jim Crow" era? The days of the "good ole boys" are making a come-back, full force. I'm sure some will disagree, but don't be so quick to dismiss this as it's happened before and can happen again.

    Peace :spinstar:
     
  10. happy69

    happy69 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    You have already answered youer question---It is Unity(.) How many times and ways do we have to say it?
    As long as the people we are unifying with have the most important thing in common--Wanting to set straight and upligft the Black American community as a whole...then, to me that is all it takes; and add our willingness to each do their part.

    No, just having a job and a house does not do it. No, just going to college doesn't do It!
    We each have to give back in whatever way that we can.
    This is what I mean: There is a black man who is say, a mechanic... what does he bring to the community? 1. If his business is located inside or adjunct to the community and he had competitive and reasonable prices (We don't just patronize him b/c he is black; and he doesn't give us anything because We his patrons are black--but excellent service for our hard earned money. 2. His business, yes, does say to US and OUR children that having your own business is possible, Yes, We don't have to go outside OUR community... and there is a service there for US. So, the benefits can be and are great on both sides. Now, as a bonus, and if this mechanic is interested in the viability of the community--what can he do?
    Perhaps he can take on neighborhood kids as interns. Show them the ins and outs of being a mechanic...TEACH A TRADE. (You know give and man a fish...) What does the interns get --- A VIABLE PRODUCTIVE TRADE... that can be parlayed into many other things...like have a BASIS for say, Mechanical Engineering? Use the knowledge to facilitate college tuition (fix cars etc...on the side, go do some work at a garage...) So, all around the community benefits.
    This is my idea...that can transcend all things in OUR Community.


    We have to really want to get OUR community's back--- I am not talking money or programs from government. We have to supplement OUR kid's education etc...waiting around for someone to take the helm and help US is not going to happen... that We should be quite aware of by now.

    That is just some of what I am thinking. It mainly goes back to having a common interest of wanting US ans OURS to survive--- and the differences on how to do it, can be hashed out after.
     
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