Pan Africanism : black and native american links black indians

Discussion in 'Black History - Culture - Panafricanism' started by jah, Mar 30, 2003.

  1. jah

    jah New Member MEMBER

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    hail
    i just wanted to make people aware of an excellent book and site that i just discovered.
    the book is "understanding the connections between black and aboriginal peoples"
    it discusses ancient and contemporary links between black and native american peoples.
    given its estimated that at least a third of all black people in america have native american blood its an important subject for us to check out.
    i recommend this book it doesnt shy away from heavy politics and the chapter on 'resistance" was very deep showing influence of black panthers on indgenous peoples and also how the UHURU movement influenced radical indiggenous people in canada

    www.firethistime.com
    go to book page in menu
    then go to raging blackindian
     
  2. jah

    jah New Member MEMBER

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    reply

    personally i have alot of problems with the work of katz
    not only does his work exclude so much rich black indian histories in central and south america but
    his focus on making black indians seem like something dated as opposed to relevant and contemporary is very dangerous not to mention alienating to young black indians alive today that want contemporary reference points to their culture.something i was very happy to see that this book 'understanding the connections between black and aboriginal peoples,.."was chock full of contemporary references at the same time obviously linked to the ancient.
    when katz foucuses on the past he puts black indians into the cultural relic zone
    nice and palpatable for academics
    what he leaves out consistently is discussion of present day black indian /black and native american political alliances and what this can mean for the destructiion of babylon

    check out www.firethistime.com
    go to raging blackindian
    then go to page marked resistance
    it has a very curent and to me non romanticised evaluation of black and native resistance
     
  3. jah

    jah New Member MEMBER

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    if you yawn at words like babylon i hope you fall into deep comatose sleep when you hear phrases like american justice canadian justice
    george bush homeland security

    do yu also yawn when you hear genocide stolen land soverignty self determination
     
  4. euphrates

    euphrates Member MEMBER

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    I am native american and african-american

    check out my tribes web-site www.occaneechi-saponi.org. We have recently been granted "official rcognition", by the state and are seeking Federal recognition. Forget that we were here from the beginning, we recognized ourselves etc. When we control our community and vote we will overcome.
     
  5. PurpleMoons

    PurpleMoons Administrator STAFF

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    I'm glad that you know your roots. Hope someday to know mines.
    Never met my grandmother but was told that she was full breeded cherokee. My father was a half breed and did'nt stay in contact with his siblings. Congratulation on your peoples official recognitions. The man wants to keep us in the dark. He dont want us to ever feel proud to be who we are. Thats why documentations of the slaves was never kept. Most of us are still proud to be black. But many are still ashamed. Knowledge is power. Thankyou for your information and again congradulations.
     
  6. CrunchyStuff

    CrunchyStuff Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    liviti,

    Thanks for the link. I thought you were joking about Indian owning slaves being that I have studied African American history and never heard of this, I was dismissive.

    Of course I was right.

    From the web site:

    ...Though less than 3% of Indian people owned slaves...

    ....Indian masters, however, rejected the worst features of southern white bondage. Travelers reported enslaved Africans "in as good circumstances as their masters."....

    ***

    Liviti,

    One has to be very careful when examinging history. For instance there are thousands and thousands of documents showing that African Americans owned many slaves.

    The problem?

    These African Americans were buying their relatives from white slave masters.

    While it may appear on PAPER that African Americans and Indians owned slaves, because of the fact that they were forced to purchase their relatives back from white masters, legally.

    In reality this was not the case. As your own website shows, 3 percent of Indians among only 5 tribes who are closely associated by the way with African Americans. Being that this was Oklahoma [where there was a large free settlement of African Americans], is just about the number I would expect to have purchased their own Black Indian relatives back from white slave masters.

    I would need far more evidence than this to declare that Indians owned slaves.

    This is the shoddy type of research that would have people declaring in a hundred years that because they found a whole bunch of papers showing that African Americans owned slaves, they believed that African Americans were the ones who mostly enslaved Africans.

    When a person says Oklahoma and Indians, they are talking about one of the worst massacre's of Indians in the genocide. To then turn around and talk about Indians and whites working together in Oklahoma? Is a little ahistorical.

    It is sorta like saying that the Jews who were forced to remove the dead bodies from the gas chambers, were working with Hitler.

    Some of that owned slaves, "fought for the confederacy", hired to capture slaves, etc, etc is a real ahistorical misnomer of what was actually taking place.
     
  7. CrunchyStuff

    CrunchyStuff Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    By the way. I am Cha'taw Indian. My great grandmother was full Cha'taw Indian. This is a type of Black Indian in the Lousiana area.
     
  8. CrunchyStuff

    CrunchyStuff Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Liviti,

    Now you don't like your own site? Why did you post that site?

    Well now you are not going to like these two sites that you just gave.

    The first site that you gave states that it was white married to Indians who brought slavery.

    ......frontiersmen who married Indian women, were the principal slaveholders in the tribes, largely because their fathers had taught them the economics of slavery........

    And your second website you gave is about a WHITE PERSON who was RUNNING an INDIAN TRIBE.

    From the website, The title of the essay!:

    Will Thomas: White Chief Of The Cherokee

    Am I suppossed to accuse Indians of enslaving Black people because of this WHITE PERSON?????

    The fact that you even consider these web pages about WHITES among Indians enslaving Blacks to be proof of Indian slavery, is LUDICROUS.

    It may not be all black and white but please show stories of the RED enslaving the BLACKS.

    Not the WHITES among the REDS, enslaving the BLACKS.
     
  9. CrunchyStuff

    CrunchyStuff Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Liviti,

    You are the one who keeps posting these idiotic sites. That claim Indians enslaved Blacks and then it turns out that the site is claiming that WHITES and WHITES who were part indian enslaved Blacks.

    From your website::::

    The Company was joined on Thursday by, five waggons and 21 men . . . the number . . . grew to 105 men, 15 negroes and 12 females all under the command of Clem McNair (Wright 1934:183).

    The gender and racial data provided in this entry are significant. Cherokees owned slaves. Prior to the arrival of Europeans they used captured Indian slaves. After the Europeans arrived, they began to capture and later purchase African slaves. Joseph Vann, the grandfather of McNair was one of the largest slave holders in the Cherokee Nation. The "15 Negroes" were more than likely slaves.


    Hey, maybe we should just have the author of this website GUESS again about who the 15 Negros were among the Cherokee's!

    I looked up some of the sources for this website. ANONYMOUS was one of them. LOL!!!!!!!!!

    I did not know that Cherokee's went by the name of John Brown, and Thomas Walcott.

    And these Cherokee's kept DIARY's of their travels. Isn't that strange?????

    Liviti,

    of course this makes now the third website of WHITES among INDIANS who POSSIBLY might have owned slaves. This websites ADMITS that they are only GUESSING about that.

    Still waiting for 1 shred of evidence that Indians enslaved Blacks.

    YAWN.
     
  10. CrunchyStuff

    CrunchyStuff Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Liviti,

    I don't hold out any hope whatsoever for the Black man, accept through Jesus. So you can forget me thinking that we have a "spiritual" bond with Indians.

    My point is and remains that it is a deep mischarecterization of Indians to, based on the behavior of only 5 tribes out of hundreds of tribes, to call Indians slave owners.

    Even worse than charecterizing hundreds of Indian Tribes as slave holders based on these 5 tribes, is to charecterize the majority of full blooded Indians among these tribes based on the even smaller percentage of "white" Indian slave holders among them.

    For instance from one of your websites we learn that only 3 percent of the Indians in these 5 tribes owned slaves. Most of these the whites who married Indian women.

    Yet these same sites say that 20 to 25 percent of the Cherokee Nation was African Americans!

    That would be like saying Black Americans are Hindu's based on the fact that less than 1 out of a thousand Black People are Hindu's.

    Sure it is true that one can find a Hindu among Black Americans, but it is really lopsided to call Black Americans who are 95 percent Christians, Hindu's.

    Sure you can find an Indian among one of these 5 tribes who owned slaves, but then to charecterize the 99.8 percent of Indians who never owned slaves as slave owners, based on that is ludicrous.
     
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