Destee Network : Asar Imhotep debate on blogtalkradio Sun. May 16 9pm Eastern

Discussion in 'Destee Network :' started by imhotep06, May 16, 2010.

  1. imhotep06

    imhotep06 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Greetings Phamily

    Please join me this Sunday May 16th @ 8pm Central Standard Time (9pm Eastern) as I engage in a debate/dialogue with author Kamau Makesi-Tehuti (How to make a Negro Christian) on the topic "Are we Americans with Africanisms? Or are we Africans with Americanisms?"

    I will be taking the position of African-Americans are Americans with Africanisms. You do not want to miss this discourse. The details of the program are as follows:


    Show: Mr. Holipsism
    Date: Sunday May 16, 2010
    Time: 8pm Central (9pm Eastern)
    Call-in Number: (347) 843-4874
    Location: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/holipsism/2010/05/17/debate-asar-imhotep-vs-kamau-makesi-tehuti

    Format of debate:
    2 Hour Time frame
    Opening Statements -15 Min Max for each participant (total segment time = 1/2 hour max)
    Rebuttals - 15 Min Max for each participant (total segment time = 1/2 hour max)3 Direct questions - (1 min max to ask, 5 min max to respond) should take 15 min a piece (total segment time = 1/2 hour)
    Conclusions - 15 min max for each participant (total segment time = 1/2 hour)
    Questions from callers in overtime discussion

    Please mark your calendars and write down any questions you may have to be answered in the Q&A session. I look forward to engaging the community.

    Ancestrally,

    Asar Imhotep
    MOCHA-Versity Institute of Philosophy and Research
    http://www.***************
     
  2. Cthismetalheart

    Cthismetalheart Active Member MEMBER

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    This is quite good. I have a podcast of this and I'm quite pleased with it.
     
  3. imhotep06

    imhotep06 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I appreciate you taking the time to listen. This is definitely a discussion that needs to be put out in the open and discussed more frequently.
     
  4. nubian noir

    nubian noir Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I am going to listen to this tonight. I listen to a lot of shows on blog talk radio all the time.
     
  5. Clyde C Coger Jr

    Clyde C Coger Jr going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    In the Spirit of Sankofa and Real Truth!




    Brother,

    The intellectual jostling was enjoyable, but found to be a conundrum of sorts, yet full of interesting facts presented by both sides. In my view, to argue we are Africans with Americanism is tantamount in its proof, while conversely arguing the case of us being Americans with Africanism, and vice versa. In other words, black people in America are descendents of Africans that survive under European dominated culture, and are considered Americans.

    Furthermore, as did the questioners, I too agree, there is no appreciable difference between the arguments; one proves the other having the appearance of sameness or agreement. Brother, even you said, it’s a moot point but for cultural and conscious deprivation of the class(35 million Black Americans).

    All in all, the dialogue does promote a much needed conversation of the affected class, along the order of Black Nationalism.
     
  6. imhotep06

    imhotep06 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    The conversation, is more than an intellectual jousting. It's at the core for why Blacks in America consistently fail at nation building. We have this warped idea that we are Africans in the cultural sense and don't know what that means. We want to acknowledge the holocaust of enslavement on one hand and its effects, but at the same time we want to claim that we are still African in the cultural sense and don't know what that means.

    Conversations like this force you examine what you think you know about culture. Chiekh Anta Diop wasn't writing about there ever being a singular Black culture and state. He was writing and researching to demonstrate the similarities and the deep connection of Africa to BUILD a federated state of Africa and develop a continent wide language and culture. That's what Black Africa: An Economic and Cultural Basis for a Federated State was all about. Obviously there couldn't have been a single African culture or his work makes no sense what's so ever.

    Dr. Amos Wilson stated:

    Blueprint for Black Power Pg58

    I didn't mention Dr. Maulana Karenga's 7 Criteria for Culture: history, mythology, creative motif, ethos, social organization, POLITICAL ORGANIZATION, and ECONOMIC ORGANIZATION.

    What I stated is that culture is essentially a political activity. As Dr. Wilson notes, "This coalescence of subcultural social units is usually organized and motivated by a mutually recognized leadership or governing establishment." All of this speaks to the fact that culture is organized by people: it is not a random accident. People put together a governing body to represent the people. If you do not have this body, how can you possibly have a culture? Who is the RECOGNIZED LEADERSHIP? How were they chosen?

    Pay attention to Karenga's criteria, especially social, political and economic organization. How can you ORGANIZE without having a meeting or meetings and establishing a governing body? Does organization happen without people? This is the whole point of this aspect of the cultural debate. As Dr. Amos Wilson would say, "Ultimately culture is a conspiracy." To conspire means to organize, plan, have intent. If your people never sat down to organize and create the social conditions necessary to develop a certain type of human being in your community, to use your genius to gain, maintain and utilize power, you do not have a culture. Period. You are a loose population trying to find yourself with minor successes.

    A culture has an organizing body that represents the people and sets policy within the community to shape behavior, attitudes and tastes. So the objective is to get people to understand the deeper aspects of culture, recognize you don't have one, so you can be motivated to create one like your ancestors did. As Marcus Garvey would say, "What humans have done, humans can do." I think he's right.

    Now this core extends to the African debate, because there NEVER, I repeat, NEVER was a continent wide political organization or state to claim that there was an AFRICAN culture in which to say we are Africans culture. Africa did not exist for "African" people. Africa is a concept create by Europeans, not by the people on the continent itself. There never was an "African" language in which to articulate, organize and categorize the universe we live in. That is an American, Pan-Africanist fantasy.

    We can't move forward thinking we have something in which we do not. Build what you need, then move forward. I pointed out in the debate that without speaking an "African" language, you have no idea of what it means to be African. Your claim is only biological, not cultural.

    As Diop notes in Civilization or Barbarism, the cultural personality consist of three parts: Historical, Linguistic and Psychological. African-Americans in mass only can connect historically, on a biological basis. African-Americans do not speak an African language. We speak English. You cannot argue that AA's have the full Psychology of traditional African cultures because they don't speak the languages to know know the nuances.

    In the end, based on the cultural criteria articulated in the debate, we, as a collective are Americans with Africanisms. Until you recover the Linguistic and Psychic factors expressed by Diop, and you organize your cultural units as expressed by Karenga and Wilson, you DO NOT have a CULTURE, let alone an "African" one. Even this concept of Africa is problematic, but I end here.
     
  7. Clyde C Coger Jr

    Clyde C Coger Jr going above and beyond PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Brother...I also said this...smh: All in all, the dialogue does promote a much needed conversation of the affected class, along the order of Black Nationalism.

     
  8. RAPTOR

    RAPTOR Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    ..interesting. But I must state for the record, that the "thank you" button
    was hit by mistake. I meant to hit the "quote" button.
    Not to imply that your post was not "useful".


    You know you've given black folks rationale to deny their pre
    1619 afrikan history and the afrikan that is still within them, lol.

    There are, as you may well know, afrikans of the motherland, who
    no longer speak the language of their ancestors. Camara, in his book "holy
    lockdown" speaks to this upon his interaction with a nigerian(?). When he asked
    the french-speaking nigerian what [indigenous] language does he speak, the nigerian
    said he doesn't use that language, implying, If I recall,
    that basically, there is no incentive in speaking that language if he is to 'get
    ahead'. ...Dig that.

    Afrikans who do not own the resources under the soil, therefore not controlling their
    economic destiny. As far as the politics, well, he who controls the resources, controls
    the politics and what afrikan owns the resources of any great consequence under their soil today?

    Are they too not afrikan? My point is that everything the afflicts the afrikan in the diaspora,
    afflicts to a significant extent, many of the afrikans in the motherland.

    We should be careful when citing wilson's speak on "culture" without the
    context in which he speaks of it. In reading wilson, "culture" means,
    represents many elements and is composed of many requisites.

    I don't follow karanga (for personal reasons), so I cannot speak on how he
    views "culture". I will have to pull diop's book off the shelf to see in what context
    does he say the things you've quoted.

    When wilson states that "culture is a conspiracy" It is, according to wilson,
    "a means by which a people organizes the way they think,
    organizes the way they believe, organizes the
    way they see the world so
    as to create a consciousness by which
    they can cooperate in achieving certain ends such that they can mutually aid
    each other and gain ends they cannot gain as separate individuals.

    With regard to the "cultural criteria" that you've laid out, wilson reminds us
    that "culture is not static". Culture adapts, evolve (and devolve for that
    matter). Wilson states that, "culture itself must reconstruct itself if the
    system in which it exists is reconstructed and rearranged". As afrikans in
    amerikkka, we had to make some concessions in order to survive.

    (Side thought: Irish folks who do not speak gaelic, aren't irish?)

    Wilson goes on: "Afrikan culture is not a culture stuck in place and time. Afrikan culture is constantly
    changing and evolving (or devolving as I stated earlier, which may be what
    you percieve as 'americans with africanisms'), because the context in which
    Afrikan people live changes and evolves." -parenthetical is mine, of course.

    How'bout spiritually? Doesn't that count?
     
  9. RAPTOR

    RAPTOR Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    ...And byetheway,

    I enjoyed listening to the debate between you and the other brotha.
     
  10. RAPTOR

    RAPTOR Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Forgive me for essentially saying the same thing you've already said.
     
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