Black Spirituality Religion : according to the Bible, God has a form..

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by solomon7, Mar 22, 2006.

  1. solomon7

    solomon7 Banned MEMBER

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    Subject: the "anthropomorphism' of God, according to the Bible-PT OF A CONVERSATION



    SORRY, NO REFERENCES TO A"TRINITY".


    3: The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name EXODUS 15
    6 Thy right hand, O LORD, glorious in power, thy right hand, O LORD, shatters the enemy.
    EXODUS 15

    11: And he did not lay his hand on the chief men of the people of Israel; they beheld God, and ate and drank.
    EXODUS 24

    8: And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
    GENESIS 3

    5: And the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the door of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward.
    6: And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision, I speak with him in a dream.
    7: Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house.
    8: With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in dark speech; and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
    NUMBERS 12

    8: How can I give you up, O E'phraim! How can I hand you over, O Israel! How can I make you like Admah! How can I treat you like Zeboi'im! My heart recoils within me, my compassion grows warm and tender.
    HOSEA 11

    In my opinion, Ex. 15:3 MAY BE USED AS "PROOF" THAT GOD IS A MAN. (I WOULD NOT USE IT THOUGH; IT CAN BE INTERPRETED EITHER WAY)

    Ex. 15:3 This appears, to me, TO BE Non-Anthropomorpic.

    Ex:24:11. I concede, that the first portion of this verse may be non-anthropomorphic. But not the second part; How could God be "beheld" if He is only a spirit? Spirits can't be "beheld".

    Gen. 3:8 ...and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden....How could they hide themselves from God, if He is only a spirit? This does not make sense, to me.
    Numbers 12:5-8 ...

    5: And the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the door of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward.
    6: And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision, I speak with him in a dream.
    7: Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house.
    8: With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in dark speech; and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"
    NUMBERS 12

    These verses are VERY clear, to me. First of all, God, in verse 8, says that HE HAS A " FORM". He says that other prophets are aware of Him, by a "vision" and that He speaks to them, "in a dream". "...7: Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house.
    8: With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in dark speech; and he beholds the form of the LORD. (am I missing something?)


    Hosea 8:11 I belive this is non-anthropomorphic.

    Dr. Freeman, you mentioned the following in your previous letter. It is excellent, and should apply, to us all.

    Also, it is important to understand the difference between "exegesis" and "eisigesis":
    Eisegesis: "I am study the Bible with my own preconceived ideas. I find certain verses to buttress what I "knew" all along." In my opinion, this is a dangerous way to go. Error and deception is around every corner. Many people use the Bible as a sort of good luck charm, only obeying the verses that they want to enjoy and using other verses to justify/rationalize their ungodly behavior.
    Exegesis: "I study the Bible, using the above rules of interpretation along with other proven rules of interpretation), without preconceived notions. I let the Bible speak to me inductively. What ever emerges, I submit to it, even if I cannot wrap my finite brain around it."

    In my opinon, this is the best way to study the Bible.


    I never recall these verses being brought up,in Church though, I consider them to be VERY important!









    Your most sincere and loyal servant
    suleiman = wise abdul = servant of
    Rahman = The Benificent or The Doer of Good
    so, the wise servant of, The Doer of Good
    "Pluto sits out there, but still just a touch of the Sun moves her."
    __________________________________________________
     
  2. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Salaam aqi:

    The Holy Qur'an says:

    “It is Allah who is God in Heaven and God on Earth, and He is full of wisdom and knowledge.” (Sura 43:84)

    Allah (God), according to the religion of Islam, is the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. He is in total charge of the entire creation. He has no beginning or ending. He was never born and will never die. He has always been in existence. Allah (God) is not a physical being. The Qur’an says, “No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision and He is above total comprehension, yet He is well acquainted with all things.” The Qur’an also states: “Say He is Allah, the one and only; God the eternal, absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto Him.” (Sura 112)

    The religion of Islam teaches that Allah (God) is one and He has no sons or daughters. He is neither male nor female. He is the source of human life and gender. He just says, “Be” and it is. Allah (God) is responsible for the creation of every human being. He created all colors and made our features beautiful...

    The concept of God in the religion of Islam is an extremely vast and important concept. Perhaps the most important aspect of Islam is the belief in the Oneness (tauhid) of God.
     
  3. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Here is the ancient Egyptian concept of God:

    “God is one and alone, and none other existeth with Him – God is the One, the One who hath made all things – God is a spirit, a hidden spirit, the spirit of spirits, the great spirit of the Egyptians, the Divine spirit – God is from the beginning, and He hath been from the beginning.

    He hath existed from old and was when nothing else had being. He existed when nothing else existed, and what existeth He created after He had come into being.

    He is the Father of beginnings – God is the Eternal One, He is eternal and infinite and endureth forever, and yes – God is hidden and no man knoweth His form. No man hath been able to seek out His likeness; He is hidden to the gods and men, and He is a mystery unto His creatures.

    No man knoweth how to know Him – His name remaineth hidden; His name is a mystery unto His children. His names are innumerable; they are manifold and none knoweth their number.

    God is truth and He feedeth thereon. He is the king of truth, and He hath established the Earth thereupon – God is life and through Him only man liveth. He giveth life to man, He breatheth the breath of life into his nostrils – God is father and mother, the father of fathers and the mother of mothers. He begetteth, but was never begotten; He produceth, but was never produced; He begat himself and produced himself. He createth, but was never created; He is the maker of His own form and the fashioner of His own body.

    God Himself is existence, He endureth without increase or diminution, He multiplieth Himself millions of times, and He is manifold in forms and in numbers – God hath made the Universe, and He created all that therein is; He is the Creator of what is in this world, and of what was, of what is, and of what shall be. He is the Creator of the Heavens, and of the Earth, and of the deep, and of the water, and of the mountains.

    God hath stretched out the Heavens and founded the Earth – what His heart conceived straightway came to pass, and when He hath spoken, it cometh to pass and endureth forever – God is the father of the gods; He fashioned men and formed the gods – God is merciful unto those who reverence Him, and He heareth him that calleth upon Him. God knoweth him that acknowledges Him; He rewardeth him that serveth Him, and He protecteth him that followeth Him.”


    (The Egyptian Book of the Dead: The Papyrus of Ani, transliteration and translation by E.A. Wallis Budge, pp. xcii-xciii)
     
  4. uplift19

    uplift19 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    If God is a mystery, why should we worship Him?

    Do you argue that you believe in Islam as you understand it or the ancient Egyptian view that you just quoted? You will agree that the two are not congruent.
     
  5. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Because He is the Creator of the Universe and all that is contained therein.

    There isn't that much difference...:)
     
  6. solomon7

    solomon7 Banned MEMBER

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    CAN ALLAH BE SEEN?


    A chapter from
    ALLAH THE ORIGINAL MAN
    by Mr. TrueIslam


    There are a few verses is the Qur’an which modern exegesis presents as the strongest proof of the non-anthropomorphic, transcendental nature of Allah. Upon closer examination, however, these verses prove not to be anti-anthropomorphic at all. Most of them, when understood in their original context, could just as easily be cited as evidence of an anthropomorphic God. The first is found in Sura 2:3 where Allah is referred to as Ak-Ghayb. Many Muslim writers today translate the word as “Unseen,” but this not an accurate rending. The Arabic word literally means “that which has been concealed, secret” or “absent” from the verb ghaba “to withdraw ones presence from.” This word is similar to the Greek Aoratos and does not mean physical invisibility but unseen due location or distance-absent from view. It is the opposite of As-Shadid, “present.” In theological matters, the term ghayb had a very anthropomorphic connotation. The Shia use this term in reference to their last Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, who disappeared in 873. He is said to have not died but gone into ghayba, “occultation” or “hiding.”


    The second standard “anti-anthropomorphic” verse cited by modern Muslim exegetes is 6:104, which reads, “Vision comprehends Him not (la tudrikuha al-absar) and he comprehends all vision. Though this verse is usually cited as proof that God cannot be seen with the eyes, the actual Arabic word proves otherwise. It is reported that Abd’ Allah b. Abbas (d.68 the cousin of the Prophet and one of the first and most famed mufasirrun (Quar’anic exegete) was informing the people one day of their seeing Allah in the Hereafter when a questioner opposed him by citing this verse. Ibn Abbas answered, “Do not you see the sky?” The questioner responded “yes.” Ibn Abbas then answered in the negative, Ibn Abbas explained to him that the denial of perception (idrak) does not necessitate the denial of seeing (ru’ya). The denial of idrak is a denial of seeing a thing in its totality, where as a mere seeing may apply to seeing it but not totally perceiving His Majesty and Power.

    Another verse usually adduced by anti-anthropomorphist Muslims to deny that Allah can be seen is Al-Araf 7:143

    · And when Moses came to our appointed meeting place and his Lord spoke to him, he said “My Lord Show me yourself so that I may gaze upon you. He replied: You will never see me, but look at the mountain. If it remains in its place you will be able to see me.” When his Lord revealed His glory to the mountain, it was crushed into dust, and Moses fell down unconscious. When he regained his consciousness he said: “Glory be unto you! I turn to you repentant and I am the first of the true believers.”

    Again to the early Sunnites this verse in no way implied that Allah “could not” be seen. Ibn Hanbal argued in his Ar-Radd ala z-Zanadiqa wa-l Jahmiyya (The Refutation of the Zanadiqa and Jahmiyya):

    · An exposition of the denial by the Jahmiyya of Allah’s words: “On that day shall faces beam with light, looking at their Lord” (75:22). We asked them (Jahmiyya): “Why do you deny that those in Paradise will look at their lord?” They replied: “It is not proper for anyone to look at his Lord: a thing looked at is passable and qualifiable; things are only seen by refraction”…But the Prophet, who knew what Allah meant, said: “You will surly see your Lord.” And Allah said to Moses,”Thou shalt not see me,” but he did not say, “I shall not be seen.” Who then of the two is more deservedly followed: the Prophet who said, “You shall surly see your Lord,” or Jahm who said, “You shall not see your Lord?”




    If you take one step towards Him, He runs 2 you!
     
  7. uplift19

    uplift19 Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Sounds nice, but how do you worship a mystery? Why not be agnostic if God is a mystery?

    Well, there is a difference, you will agree with that won't you? You seem to be thriving on pointing out differences between people who all call themselves muslims and strive to follow Islam. Is there not more commonality between muslims than there is between Ancient Egyptian theology and modern Islam?

    If you want to be the broker of peace and understanding between seemingly divergent theologies, then start with those within our own community that exist here and now.
     
  8. Music Producer

    Music Producer Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    The problem with making peace between the main religions is people don’t follow the advice of their own religion. Every Muslim on earth would agree that the GOD found in the Old Testament is Allah. Every Servant of Jesus would agree that the Father of Jesus is the GOD found in the Old Testament. The Koran advises one to follow Allah, the New Testament advises one to follow the Father, and so what’s the problem?

    The Truth is a true Holy Book of Divinity must have within it the ability to distinguish between and separate good and evil people and must establish a faith for evil people upon rejection of GOD.

    The people that hold up the Koran but yet reject the GOD of the Old Testament are evil people. The people that hold up the New Testament but yet reject the GOD of the Old Testament are evil people.

    A true Holy Book advises you to follow GOD but if you reject that advice then that same book gives you a faith to substitute your disobedient or rejection of GOD. Those that reject GOD are evil in nature or confused of the Truth.

    The Creed is:
    Follow GOD but if you reject GOD then follow “this”.

    “This” is usually a manifestation of a Host of Heaven such as Gabriel, Jesus, Mohamed or an Apostle, not GOD.

    Evil people must also have a religion and when you truly study it you will find it is not based upon the Specific Words and Doctrine of GOD except in an evil light.

    All the people that have Truly discovered GOD can do is setback and wait for most of the evil people to consume themselves.

    Isa:8:17: And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for Him.

    That is what the main religious doctrines advise all of us to do, but most of us are not doing it, we are to busy making up excuses and reasons to reject GOD; which is the First Sin.
     
  9. solomon7

    solomon7 Banned MEMBER

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    This is the subject matter of, this thread...

    Had nothing to do w/the Qur'an.

    But,
     
  10. solomon7

    solomon7 Banned MEMBER

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    This is the subject matter of, this thread...

    Had nothing to do w/the Qur'an.

    But, since you bring it up, please, read the essay, "Can AAlah be seen?", above.
     
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