Black Spirituality Religion : Abraham the Patriarch was not a Jew...

Discussion in 'Black Spirituality / Religion - General Discussion' started by Aqil, Aug 1, 2001.

  1. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Abraham the Patriarch, the father of all Semitic people, was a Chaldean by birth, emanating from the city of Ur in Chaldea (an ancient Asian country on the western shores of the Persian Gulf) – according to the Biblical record – in the year 1917 BC. He was a descendant of Eber, the great-grandson of Shem, who was the eldest son of Noah. His father was Terah, who was also Chaldean [Gen. 11:28]. It stands to reason, therefore, that Abraham was not a Jew – as is generally supposed – and furthermore, Jewish people did not exist during his time...

    His sons Ishmael and Isaac were not Jews, neither were his grandsons Esau and Jacob, and neither were the sons of Jacob – Abraham’s great-grandsons – Reuben, Shimeon and Levi. The fourth son of Jacob, born in the year 1753 BC. was named Judah, and his descendants were called “Jews,” an abbreviated and corrupt form of the Hebrew “Yahudim.”

    When Abraham [the name translates “father of a multitude”] and his followers left the city of Ur in Chaldea and crossed the Euphrates River on their way to Canaan (Gen. 12:5), he and his people were called "Eberus," in order to distinguish them from the people who stayed behind. The word “Eber” translates “the region beyond” in the Hebrew language, and the names “Eberu” and “Eberus” were used by Abraham and the descendants of Eber, Noah’s great, great-grandson.

    Through incorrect transliteration by some of the Biblical translators, Abraham The Eberu became Abraham the “Hebrew” (Gen. 14:13), a name by which some Jews are called even today. But Hebrew is the language of the Jewish people. There is no such thing as a Hebrew race or Hebrew people...

    Abraham begot Ishmael, his first-born son, by Hagar, an African woman who was also the daughter of an Egyptian-Ethiopian Pharaoh. He begot Isaac, his second son, by Sarah, his Chaldean wife who was also his half-sister (Gen. 20:11-12). Ishmael is regarded as the father of all Arabs, whereas Isaac is regarded as the father of all Jews...

    Ishmael’s first-born son was named Kedar,which translates “black-skinned.” The Bible and the Qur’an are at variance as to which of Abraham’s sons was offered for sacrifice. According to the Bible it was Isaac (Gen. 22:2). The Qur’an, on the other hand, declares clearly and unequivocally that it was Ishmael (Sura 37:103).

    The Bible contradicts itself in this respect. According to it, Abraham was commanded to offer his “only son” for sacrifice, but Isaac was at no time his only son. Ishmael was senior to Isaac by 13 years, and was for these many years Abraham’s only son, and, being also his firstborn, was extremely dear to him. It stands to reason, therefore, that Abraham must have been required by God to offer for sacrifice his nearest and dearest possession, which, at that time, was his first-born son, Ishmael...

    Some Christian evangelists have vainly tried to show that “Ishmael, being of the handmaiden, was born after the flesh, while Isaac, being born of the free woman, was by promise” (Gal. 4:22-23). Apart from the fact that Hagar, Ishmael’s mother, belonged to the royal family of Egypt and was no handmaid, Ishmael has repeatedly been mentioned in the Bible as Abraham’s son (Gen. 16:16, 17:23 & 25), exactly as Isaac. Moreover, analogous promises were made to Abraham in regard to the future greatness of Ishmael as were made to him about Isaac (Gen. 16:10 and 17:20).

    Apart from the substitution in the Bible of Isaac for Ishmael – which seems to be deliberate – and of “Moriah” for “Marwah,” a hillock that lies in the vicinity of Mecca (near where Abraham left Ishmael with his mother Hagar while yet a child), there is nothing in the Bible to lend the slightest support to the view that Abraham offered Isaac for sacrifice, and not Ishmael.

    But whereas no trace is to be found in the religious ceremonies of Christians and Jews of the supposed sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham, Muslims, who are the spiritual descendants of Ishmael, commemorate with great fervor his intended sacrifice by slaughtering rams and goats every year on the 10th day of Dhu’l-Hijjah, the 12th month of the Islamic year. This universal sacrifice of rams and goats by Muslims establishes – beyond dispute or doubt – the fact that it was Ishmael whom Abraham offered for sacrifice, and not Isaac...

    In reality though, Abraham was not required to fulfill his vision in actual fact. It was only a practical demonstration of his intention and preparedness to sacrifice his son, which was desired of him. The vision had been fulfilled symbolically in Hagar and Ishmael having been left by Abraham in the valley of Mecca, which at that time was an arid and barren wasteland. That brave act had, in fact, symbolized the sacrifice of Ishmael...

    The command to Abraham first to sacrifice his son and then to abstain from carrying it into actual fact showed also that it was intended to abolish human sacrifice, a most inhumane practice which was prevalent at that time in most countries...

    Abraham lived to see the gradual accomplishment of the promise that his descendants would become a mighty nation in the birth of his grandsons Esau and Jacob, and witnessed their growth to manhood (Gen. 25:26). At the goodly age of 175 he was “gathered to his people,” and was laid beside Sarah in the "Cave of Machpelah" in Al-Khalil (the Biblical Hebron), Palestine, by his sons Ishmael and Isaac (Gen. 25:7-10).
     
  2. imhotep35

    imhotep35 Active Member MEMBER

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    About Abram - Abraham

    Perhaps I miss the actual thrust of the above discourse. It is never easy to reconcile the Biblical with the historical. God did not intend the Scriptures for that purpose. Scriptures support the believer. Belief, faith, a call from the Holy Spirit to know God's will and purpose are the driving factors, I think.
    Though I am not an expert on such matters, I do try to read for understanding first. And I certainly am not expert enough to offer criticism.
    God called Abram out of Chaldea, promising to lead him to a new land and make him the father of nations - descendants more numerous than the stars in the sky. All Abram needed to do would be to follow and worship God. Abram struck out on this faith.
    I think the human failings that followed are recorded to show us today how far we fall from deserving God's grace. We are all sinners by nature. First Abram failed to fully believe in God's promise, trying to enhance or help God out along the way. He even denied his wife, calling her his sister out of fear and lack of faith in God. Hagar's child, Ishmael, was equally blessed by God as she was sent from Abram's camp, due to increasing trouble-making between her and Sara. God was establishing the blood line to Jesus - the Messiah promised earlier in Genesis. It was God's plan - to show his omnipotence - that very old people who were biologically not expected to give birth, would indeed witness His power over nature. The wordly solution, suggested by Sara, that Abram sire a child through Hagar was not an ordained action, but the kind of morass we find ourselves in when we "take things into our own hands"
    Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) are know as the patriarchs. The twelve tribes of Israel sprang from Jacob. Some even suggest that all Jews are Israelites, but all Israelites are not Jews. I don't understand the full meaning, but this concept seems to suggest that true Jews are from the tribe of Judah - the line of David, as prophesied, that eventually led to the birth of Jesus.
    It is further suggested that the descendants of Ishmael would be at war with Isaac's descendants throughout time...much the same as Esau's progeny would torment Jacob's line.
    God can do whatever He likes. It is our task to humbly seek understanding and His grace and forgiveness.
     
  3. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    One of the actual thrusts of my discourse is the fact that Abraham was not a Jew – as most Christians generally suppose – and furthermore, the fact that Jewish people did not exist during his time...

    According to the Bible, Sarah, his Chaldean wife was also his half-sister (Gen. 20:11-12)...
     
  4. dnommo

    dnommo Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    sorry for the delay but this piece seems so familiar to me. You are quite correct. Abraham was not a Jew because such title was used to describe the Tribe fo Judah who was a descendant of Abraham. Those who misunderstand that simply comply with church history beliefs.

    Because he is the father of many beliefs, it is quite easy for each faith to claim him solely as their own, but this is wrong.

    Some clarity,

    Abraham
    According to Jewish tradition, Abraham was born under the name Abram in the city of Ur in Babylonia in the year 1948 from Creation (circa 1800 BCE). He was the son of Terach, an idol merchant, but from his early childhood, he questioned the faith of his father and sought the truth. He came to believe that the entire universe was the work of a single Creator, and he began to teach this belief to others.

    Abram tried to convince his father, Terach, of the folly of idol worship. One day, when Abram was left alone to mind the store, he took a hammer and smashed all of the idols except the largest one. He placed the hammer in the hand of the largest idol. When his father returned and asked what happened, Abram said, "The idols got into a fight, and the big one smashed all the other ones." His father said, "Don't be ridiculous. These idols have no life or power. They can't do anything." Abram replied, "Then why do you worship them?"

    Eventually, the one true Creator that Abram had worshipped called to him, and made him an offer: if Abram would leave his home and his family, then God would make him a great nation and bless him. Abram accepted this offer, and the b'rit (covenant) between God and the Jewish people was established. (Gen. 12).

    The idea of b'rit is fundamental to traditional Judaism: we have a covenant, a contract, with God, which involves rights and obligations on both sides. We have certain obligations to God, and God has certain obligations to us. The terms of this b'rit became more explicit over time, until the time of the Giving of the Torah (see below). Abram was subjected to ten tests of faith to prove his worthiness for this covenant. Leaving his home is one of these trials.

    Abram, raised as a city-dweller, adopted a nomadic lifestyle, traveling through what is now the land of Israel for many years. God promised this land to Abram's descendants. Abram is referred to as a Hebrew (Ivri), possibly because he was descended from Eber or possibly because he came from the "other side" (eber) of the Euphrates River.

    But Abram was concerned, because he had no children and he was growing old. Abram's beloved wife, Sarai, knew that she was past child-bearing years, so she offered her maidservant, Hagar, as a wife to Abram. This was a common practice in the region at the time. According to tradition, Hagar was a daughter of Pharaoh, given to Abram during his travels in Egypt. She bore Abram a son, Ishmael, who, according to both Muslim and Jewish tradition, is the ancestor of the Arabs. (Gen 16)

    When Abram was 100 and Sarai 90, God promised Abram a son by Sarai. God changed Abram's name to Abraham (father of many), and Sarai's to Sarah (from "my princess" to "princess"). Sarah bore Abraham a son, Isaac (in Hebrew, Yitzchak), a name derived from the word "laughter," expressing Abraham's joy at having a son in his old age. (Gen 17-18). Isaac was the ancestor of the Jewish people. Thus, the conflict between Arabs and Jews can be seen as a form of sibling rivalry!


    Nice information. I remember addressing this in another forum. I may look the info up and post it here...
     
  5. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Thank you, dnommo...
     
  6. CrunchyStuff

    CrunchyStuff Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Aqil,

    A Jew is a person who has made a covenant with God, or is the descendant of a person who has made a covenant with God.

    That would make Abraham a Jew. It would also make me a Jew.

    Two things from the Bible for you to think about. I can scripture this up for you later if you wish.

    1. In the old testament, NO MATTER what RELIGION the JEW had, God said that He was going to punish them.

    In otherwords if a Jew in the old testament RAN AWAY and began worshipping a different "god". It did not MATTER TO GOD.

    God STILL held them responsible for the covenant, that he had made with their anscestors.

    This is actually a kindness on the part of God. He does it so that when He promised me my children would be saved, then I do not have to worry, my children will not be allowed to stray.

    2. Jesus says in the New Testament, that he knows those who CALL themselves JEWS but are NOT JEWS...........

    In otherwords, Jesus considered those who could be physically Jewish to NOT be JEWISH, if they were out of the covenant with God.

    Similiarily, Jesus says that He would cause those to see that He has loved US. In otherwords the Jews would see that the true Jew is one in heart not in the flesh.

    Paul teaches about this also.

    Christians are in fact the "Israel of God". We are in fact the "Jews".

    The word Jews means no more and no less than the word Islam.

    We are simply followers of God.

    Abraham was a Jew.
     
  7. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Here is my thread again, Ms. CrunchyStuff, for your clarification and edification. It refutes all of the above nebulous gibberish, which is replete with lies and supercilious cacophony:

    THE PROPHET ABRAHAM WAS NOT A JEW

    Abraham the Patriarch, the father of all Semitic people, was a Chaldean by birth, emanating from the city of Ur in Chaldea (an ancient Asian country on the western shores of the Persian Gulf) – according to the Biblical record – in the year 1917 BC.

    He was a descendant of Eber, the great-grandson of Shem, who was the eldest son of Noah. His father was Terah, who was also Chaldean [Genesis 11:28]. It stands to reason, therefore, that Abraham was not a Jew – as is generally supposed – and furthermore, Jewish people did not exist during his time...

    His sons Ishmael and Isaac were not Jews, neither were his grandsons Esau and Jacob, and neither were the sons of Jacob – Abraham’s great-grandsons – Reuben, Shimeon and Levi.


    The fourth son of Jacob, born in the year 1753 BC. was named Judah, and his descendants were called “Jews,” an abbreviated and corrupt form of the Hebrew “Yahudim.”

    When Abraham (the name translates “father of a multitude”) and his followers left the city of Ur in Chaldea and crossed the Euphrates River on their way to Canaan (Genesis 12:5), he and his people were called "Eberus," in order to distinguish them from the people who stayed behind. The word “Eber” translates “the region beyond” in the Hebrew language, and the names “Eberu” and “Eberus” were used by Abraham and the descendants of Eber, Noah’s great, great-grandson...

    Through incorrect transliteration by some of the Biblical translators, Abraham The Eberu became Abraham The “Hebrew” (Genesis 14:13), a name by which some Jews are called even today. But Hebrew is the [/b]language[/b] of the Jewish people. There is no such thing as a Hebrew race or Hebrew people...

    Abraham begot Ishmael, his first-born son, by Hagar, an African woman who was also the daughter of an Egyptian-Ethiopian Pharaoh. He begot Isaac, his second son, by Sarah, his Chaldean wife who was also his half-sister (Genesis 20:11-12). Ishmael is regarded as the father of all Arabs, whereas Isaac is regarded as the father of all Jews...

    Ishmael’s first-born son was named Kedar, which translates “black-skinned.” The Bible and the Qur’an are at variance as to which of Abraham’s sons was offered for sacrifice. According to the Bible it was Isaac (Genesis 22:2). The Qur’an, on the other hand, declares clearly and unequivocally that it was Ishmael (Sura 37:103).

    The Bible contradicts itself in this respect. According to it, Abraham was commanded to offer his “only son” for sacrifice, but Isaac was at no time his only son. Ishmael was senior to Isaac by 13 years, and was for these many years Abraham’s only son, and, being also his firstborn, was extremely dear to him. It stands to reason, therefore, that Abraham must have been required by God to offer for sacrifice his nearest and dearest possession, which, at that time, was his first-born son, Ishmael...

    Some Christian evangelists have vainly tried to show that “Ishmael, being of the handmaiden, was born after the flesh, while Isaac, being born of the free woman, was by promise” (Galatians 4:22-23). Apart from the fact that Hagar, Ishmael’s mother, belonged to the royal family of Egypt and was no handmaid, Ishmael has repeatedly been mentioned in the Bible as Abraham’s son (Genesis 16:16, 17:23 & 25), exactly as Isaac. Moreover, analogous promises were made to Abraham in regard to the future greatness of Ishmael as were made to him about Isaac (Genesis 16:10 and 17:20).

    Apart from the substitution in the Bible of Isaac for Ishmael – which seems to be deliberate – and of “Moriah” for “Marwah,” a hillock that lies in the vicinity of Mecca (near where Abraham left Ishmael with his mother Hagar while yet a child), there is nothing in the Bible to lend the slightest support to the view that Abraham offered Isaac for sacrifice, and not Ishmael.

    But whereas no trace is to be found in the religious ceremonies of Christians and Jews of the supposed sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham, Muslims, who are the spiritual descendants of Ishmael, commemorate with great fervor his intended sacrifice by slaughtering rams and goats every year on the 10th day of Dhu’l-Hijjah, the 12th month of the Islamic year. This universal sacrifice of rams and goats by Muslims establishes – beyond dispute or doubt – the fact that it was Ishmael whom Abraham offered for sacrifice, and not Isaac...

    In reality though, Abraham was not required to fulfill his vision in actual fact. It was only a practical demonstration of his intention and preparedness to sacrifice his son, which was desired of him. The vision had been fulfilled symbolically in Hagar and Ishmael having been left by Abraham in the valley of Mecca, which at that time was an arid and barren wasteland. That brave act had, in fact, symbolized the sacrifice of Ishmael...

    The command to Abraham first to sacrifice his son and then to abstain from carrying it into actual fact showed also that it was intended to abolish human sacrifice, a most inhumane practice which was prevalent at that time in most countries...

    Abraham lived to see the gradual accomplishment of the promise that his descendants would become a mighty nation in the birth of his grandsons Esau and Jacob, and witnessed their growth to manhood (Genesis 25:26). At the goodly age of 175 he was “gathered to his people,” and was laid beside Sarah in the "Cave of Machpelah" in Al-Khalil (the Biblical Hebron), Palestine, by his sons Ishmael and Isaac (Genesis 25:7-10).
     
  8. CrunchyStuff

    CrunchyStuff Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Aqil,

    Being a Jew has nothing to do with geographical location or race.

    Abraham was a Jew.

    He made a covenant with God, and that is what makes him a Jew.
     
  9. Aqil

    Aqil Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    I've never heard anything as stupid as this...are you a Jew, Ms. CrunchyStuff?
     
  10. CrunchyStuff

    CrunchyStuff Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Aqil,

    So you do not believe what you yourself have posted?

    You posted that a Jew is not of a certain race.
    You also posted that a Jew is a citizen of the country he lives in.

    From your own writings that would mean that geographical location nor race has anything to do with whether one is a Jew.

    Your big long post above about where Abraham and where he came from, doesn't match up with your belief that a Jew is a citizen of which ever country he is in.
     
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