Amun-Ra : Abortion--Both Sides Now

Discussion in 'Amun-Ra' started by Amun-Ra, Jul 10, 2001.

  1. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Abortion is a tough subject to debate because of the emotionalism connected with it and the various scientific positions associated with it. When does life begin? When do we become people? No one seems to know, but when it comes to abortion there seems to be plenty of PRO and CON arguments to go around.

    Is it simply a woman prerogative? As with everything-it depends upon the circumstances. Is it a violation of the father' rights? Again, it depends. The one thing that I am sure of is that when all is said and done, the decision still rests with the woman and it is that woman who carries the burden.

    Once the realm of ethics is opened, the issue becomes a cacophony of useless noise where competing sides seek shrill value from misleading and sometimes vicious advertising. Once church groups become involved the waters surrounding the issue become so muddy that the real issues are lost in the swirl of mud clouding the ponds of debate.

    The issues are very clear and simple. Is forcing a woman to bring an unwanted child into a world that will largely forget about them once that goal has been achieved moral or ethical? Alternatively, is terminating a fetus a method of improper birth control that takes away a human life?

    Whatever, the answer may be, I am totally against abortion being a political issue. Should it be a social issue? I believe it to be so and for several reasons and among them are that too many people use abortion as a form of birth control, which in the age of contraception I believe to be inexcusable. Furthermore, it points out a failure of self-control and lack of acceptance of responsibility to ever reach that point, but before any pro-lifers start to cheer, I also find their position just as untenable.

    As long as there are babies who don't have homes, who can't be adopted because of their ethnicity, who people refuse to pay for as part of the "anti-welfare" movement then they are no better than the "killers" they despise, except they hide behind Pro-life banners of goodness, while letting innocent babies die after the fact because they won't adopt them, pay for them or care for them in any way because now it is a "welfare" problem.

    Pro-life proponents can't have it both ways. If they demand that women carry a fetus until term, then they must be ready to provide care in whatever form is necessary. If you just walk away satisfied that another life has been saved then they are even worse than their opponents are because they are capitalistic hypocrites. They want children to live as long as it puts no financial burden on them.

    Both groups share an equal shortsightedness. For the pro-abortion forces, they spend far too much time advocating the acceptance of abortion and not enough time promoting contraception. I would not expect this camp to be into adoption or welfare, but I would expect them to be in for promoting responsibility.

    The word abortion raises hackles in nearly every culture than hears the term, but it is hardly new. In fact, it is as old as time itself as human beings for a variety of reasons have used abortion to stop family growth, to avoid having another mouth to feed or even because it was inconvenient. Those abortions had no face in that they were fetuses.

    However, children as young as one month old have been drowned, burned and smashed against rocks just as long. Even the Bible records such inhumanity as smashing babies against rocks. Today, in third world countries, girl children are expendable. They are routinely killed in other cultures.

    What does this have to do with anything? Simple! It is called responsibility. Until both men and women take responsibility for contraception and sex safe, then abortion represents a failure of character in the American fabric and portends to moral ambivalence. Also, until our orphanages are cleared of all its children, when there are no starving children on the streets of the richest country in the world, when their are no abandoned children and when all children are entitled to equal treatment, then the protests of the anti-abortionists will be as hollow as their hearts.

    We eliminate the need, we eliminate the problem.


    Amun-Ra

    :confused:
     
  2. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Wheewee!

    You nailed this one. Responsibility is key. As for male rights, you have touched a subject that few are willing to discuss. Many feel that a man has no say, but men are stepping forward and saying that isn't the case. Because it is the woman's body does that make the final decisin hers or just the final action? I'd like to hear some responses on how men and women view this issue.

    Ra

    :cool:
     
  3. Derrick Jay

    Derrick Jay Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    a deep subject

    it is truly unfortunate, the society we live in. a land where children have sex just to prove they can accomplish something, then in turn want to run away from the responsibility of their actions which proves they are immature and irresponsible. i have thought about and been a friend to abortion throughout my youth. to that end i know that in some way my soul is marked for having beared witness to convenience killing. now i will say that in the cases of rape and incest abortion is a necessary evil, for who can say its proper to inflict further emotional damage to an already unwilling participant. however, after all i have seen i must say that abortion as a method of birth control due to irresponsiblity should be eliminated. to that same degree i feel that this country should take a more serious approach towards sex and sexual activity. we have to get it out of that dark, distant closet. build a perspective where children are responsible for their own sake. a society where they want to succeed more than plant seeds.
     
  4. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Indeed!

    It is an escape from responsibility--however, failure to adopt children, pay welfare costs and support mothers is also another form of abortion as it aborts a childs chances once it has been born--for the pro-lifer the issue is over once the child is born, but it is just beginning for that child and the mother. To abandon either is cruel and sometimes fatal.

    Ra

    :)
     
  5. Da Street So'ja

    Da Street So'ja Banned MEMBER

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    abortion

    a person should have a right to do what they want

    cause these people who scream about abortion sure ain't taking care of none of the babies I see the hood and PJ's

    so if you're against abortion

    then be the first to adopt someone from a foster home

    so either way it's an individual decision

    cause the rest of society doesn't take care of the rest of society

    UNLESS

    it is an epidemic of a different color
     
  6. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Precisely!

    I am cutting neither side any slack on this issue. Until all the babies in the orphanages and adoption sites are with families I will continue to berate the Pro-lifers. Until, we take care of these abandoned children, helpless mothers, and below poverty level families, I will continue to see Pro-lifers as weak-kneed, sunshine warriors who are unwilling to follow through on the problem they help to create. If life is that precious to them, then they should be willing to pay for its continuance--plain and simple. If you force a woman to have an unwanted child, then you must in part become responsible for that child or you become the despot who rules while their people starve and die.

    But, I will not let abortion rights slide either. Abortion seems a last resort, but it appears that for many it is a first resort and this smacks of irresponsibility. Birth control methods are too readily available for such a number of abortions to be necessary. No, it is a lack of character and laziness that keeps the clinics going. I don't like either side because one is short-sighted and the other is irresponsible.

    Ra

    :uzi:
     
  7. Thandiwe

    Thandiwe Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Come to stir the pot...

    I'll start off first by attempting to answer your questions, from my perspective...

    when does life begin, on a spiritual level - way before we know it.

    physically, the one and only time i was pregnant, i could tell that my body was going through some changes. very early on, a heartbeat was detected. at about 6 weeks, i realized i was pregnant. so by the time a pregnancy is detected, i would say life has already begun. so my answer would have to be from the time of conception.

    i am prochoice. however, i can not conceive me ever having an abortion, some circumstances withstanding.

    i also believe that women do have the ultimate choice of to abort or not to abort. i also think that the man should have a say in the matter but it if goes against her beliefs then it is his responsibility also.

    If a man doesn't want children, he too, should take precautions. not to look as an abortion as the answer to his "problem".

    Now days, they have a abortion pill. I think this too, is too easy a convenience. we all need to take precautions to prevent, unplanned, unwanted pregnancies.

    We should also make sure that our sons (and keep in mind, i have one) should also know what's a stake when engaging in intercourse. it takes to "tangle".
     
  8. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    What about the children?

    No one seems to want to take on the other side--those who demand that abortion be stopped but are unwilling to step to the forefront other than to prevent an abortion--where are the thoughts on these people who demand that abortion be stopped but haven't adopted any children, who are against welfare, who deny aid to inner city mothers, who don't give a **** other than they stopped an abortion--to me they are hypocrites in that they espouse human life and fail to help those who are all ready here.

    Ra

    :mad:
     
  9. WisdomSeed

    WisdomSeed Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    barf bag please ... hurry!

    The right to do what ever we want is no anarchy, and even in the event it were, would that not be the most democratic we ever were?

    People should have the right to do with their bodies as the will. If abortions is birth control, so what business of that of your's, it is not your body or your baby.
    The right to...
    is constantly being taken away from us. You religious types can not answer to God for the sins of anyone, so you can really stop tripping.

    There is an issue with men's prenatal choices when it comes to birth control, and men should have some rights, but nothing that could make a woman have a child she does not want.
     
  10. Amun-Ra

    Amun-Ra Well-Known Member MEMBER

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    Anarchy?

    How far anyone may go is largely determined by themselves and society. Society sets the limits as to what is and is not acceptable behavior. An anarchist is usually an anarchist of one any more than that and they are revolutionaries. Still, does a woman have the right to an abortion if that is what she wants? Does the father have any rights at all. And WHAT ABOUT THOSE who are prolife but against welfare, social help programs and who do not have adopted children?

    Somebody address this issue. It it fairly easy to say that we are against abortion because it has some community acceptance behind it, but what about the CHILDREN? Who cares for these children. Somebody address that issue. Once they are here, they can't be sent back nor aborted. WHAT DO WE do with them? Who takes care of them. Who provides for the mothers and children? Is abortion wrong? Let's not ***** foot around this, let's stake out our territory.

    No one want to touch this? Is this too hot?

    Ra

    :devil:
     
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